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Changed my mind.

I don’t want an Emperors Children Codex. At all. Or a World Eaters Codex. Or a Death Guard, Thousand Son, Chaos Space Marine, Chaos Knight Codex.

I. Want. A. CHAOS. Codex.

All in one. A tome so mighty if you dropped it there’s the chance it could kill a small child.

All of it. One volume. A book of gaming anarchy. And 10th is the time for it. Because we have no FOC restrictions.

Will that allow some seriously beardy and un-fun combos? Sure. But then…any Codex can do that. And it’s no reason to remove player choice from one of the most anarchic forces in the background.

Yes I’m 100% serious. One Codex To Stomp Them All.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New Chaos force released into the game, such as Lost and Damned?

Do a supplement, sure. But have it all interact.

You can introduce some restraint via Detachment rules. But just wang it all in one book.

It's not Rogue Trader anymore Doc, there are way too many options for that to be even remotely in the realms of a possibility.

The balance would be non-existent both internally and as an opposing force. People wouldn't win due to luck or skill, they'd win because there would never be any downside to playing the army.

Complete freedom is the worst thing any designer can do to a game and restrictions are absolutely necessary to keep it with even a modicum of health. Even the proposed detachments would be worthless because the basic version that lets a player take everything would always be the better choice. And if restrictions have to be placed to keep balance in the first place, does that not mean that the army should be split? If you have to largely restrict options just to keep the army from being too powerful, then that army shouldn't be.

 Gert wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
'Counts As' is never a solution.

Good thing it isn't "Counts As" then right because you aren't proxying units as other units, you're using them as they are. The only reason the God-Marked Chaos books use Legion names is because of branding.

So I have a DG army. If I take your advice & just run them as CSM, how do you propose I use my very DG specific units like drones, myphetic crawlers, & PBCs.?

ccs wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
'Counts As' is never a solution.

Good thing it isn't "Counts As" then right because you aren't proxying units as other units, you're using them as they are. The only reason the God-Marked Chaos books use Legion names is because of branding.

So I have a DG army. If I take your advice & just run them as CSM, how do you propose I use my very DG specific units like drones, myphetic crawlers, & PBCs.?

There should be a generic customisable & markable lesser daemon engine entry, and a generic customisable artillery tank entry...

ccs wrote:
So I have a DG army. If I take your advice & just run them as CSM, how do you propose I use my very DG specific units like drones, myphetic crawlers, & PBCs.?

Do you mean Death Guard units as opposed to CSM units? Yes, I would recommend using the Death Guard Codex to field those.

That point I was making was regarding armies made prior to the new Codexes and I know you know this. If you have chosen to buy newer kits from the newer Codexes then that's a different point altogether.
But if your Death Guard army didn't have any of those new things and you want to keep using your old stuff, then just do that. It's not like the CSM Codex has taken away Mark of Nurgle for Raptors or Bikes nor has it removed the option to take Plague Marines.
The only "issue", and I use the quotation marks for a good reason, is that certain units aren't in the base Codex but rather Legends, and for some stupid reason people still cling to the idiotic belief that Legends are not legal units despite GW being very clear that they are perfectly legal units.

Back when we had 9th's detachment system, it would have been easy enough to build a Slaanesh-marked CSM detachment and an Emperor's Children detachment and field both of them in the same army.

Or Nurgle-marked CSM + Deathguard.
Or Khorne-marked CSM + World Eaters.
Or Tzeench-marked CSM + Ksons.

But now that faction rules have been replaced by detachment rules and unit types are gone, single detachment armies are kinda baked into the core rules.

Another thing that 9th did better than 10th. Surprise!

 Gert wrote:

The only "issue", and I use the quotation marks for a good reason, is that certain units aren't in the base Codex but rather Legends, and for some stupid reason people still cling to the idiotic belief that Legends are not legal units despite GW being very clear that they are perfectly legal units.

Sure tell me how am I suppose to use the 3 dreadnoughts I have for GK with double heavy weapon load out that GW put in to legends, and then, as they promised, never updated? Or the psy melee dreadnought. or the psyback.

Karol wrote:
Sure tell me how am I suppose to use the 3 dreadnoughts I have for GK with double heavy weapon load out that GW put in to legends, and then, as they promised, never updated? Or the psy melee dreadnought. or the psyback.

You go to the downloads tab on Warhammer Community, select Warhammer 40k, go to the Grey Knights Legends datasheets and Legends points compendium, and then use them in a game.

Not difficult and also not relevant to the discussion being had.

Karol wrote:

 Gert wrote:

The only "issue", and I use the quotation marks for a good reason, is that certain units aren't in the base Codex but rather Legends, and for some stupid reason people still cling to the idiotic belief that Legends are not legal units despite GW being very clear that they are perfectly legal units.

Sure tell me how am I suppose to use the 3 dreadnoughts I have for GK with double heavy weapon load out that GW put in to legends, and then, as they promised, never updated? Or the psy melee dreadnought. or the psyback.

Ok, but you're not going to like the answer.

●Your psyback & psy-melee dread are in 10 Legends.
So just change how you play/who you play with. Once you ditch your stupid anti-Legends stance your 40k quality of life will improve (well, a little anyways - you are still playing GKs afterall. )
●your Mortis dreads though.... :( atm your SOL rules as written.

Crispy78 wrote:
Bitter WE player here - expect disappointment...

I reckon it'll be a new Lucius (no-one mentioned him yet?), new Noise Marines, some disappointing cultists and something totally random that's shoe-horned in to the codex. Sonic dread will be missing, an unfathomable omission along the lines of the Red Butchers (or Teeth Of Khorne). Two thirds of the CSM codex will no longer be available.

Expect Slaangors to be shoved down your throat forever


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BrianDavion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gert wrote:
See all those people complainging the God-Marked books invalidate your armies, no it doesn't.

'Counts As' is never a solution.

don't think of it as "Counts as" think of it as "two seperate ways to play the army"

My guess is EC's won't get a their own codex this edition, or if they do it'll be late 10th edition, more likely they'll get a detachment that focuses around it.

Taking a guess CSMs will get a slaanishi, Nurgle, Khorne, and Tzzetch and undivided detachments, the current detachment will, of course be the "black legionesque" in that it can run a mix.

Nah, the detachment for CSM will most certainly be

Sneaky Tricky detachment (totally not Alpha legion)
Fortification is my mission (totally not Iron Warriors)
Spooky dudes (totally not Night Lords)
God i love demons (totally not Word bearers)
Piracy, babyyy (totally not Red Corsairs)
Excess for my mistress (Totally not Emperor's children)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

Sure tell me how am I suppose to use the 3 dreadnoughts I have for GK with double heavy weapon load out that GW put in to legends, and then, as they promised, never updated? Or the psy melee dreadnought. or the psyback.

Can you for ONCE aknowledge that you understand that your local meta is particularly tryhard and probably the main source of your woes with 40k as a whole? Like PLEASE make us know we're not just wasting time copypasting the same answer every time you ask a question like that.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
Bitter WE player here - expect disappointment...

I reckon it'll be a new Lucius (no-one mentioned him yet?), new Noise Marines, some disappointing cultists and something totally random that's shoe-horned in to the codex. Sonic dread will be missing, an unfathomable omission along the lines of the Red Butchers (or Teeth Of Khorne). Two thirds of the CSM codex will no longer be available.

Expect Slaangors to be shoved down your throat forever

Sounds very much their cup of tea!

I actually love the AoS slaangor models and won't begrudge them at all if they end up in EC too. I did have high hopes for Jakhals, when all we knew about them was the name - but nope, just berserk cultists to go with the berserkers, super-berserkers and super-super-berserkers... *looks wistfully at old metal dog-faced Khorne beastmen*

Crispy78 wrote:

Sounds very much their cup of tea!

I actually love the AoS slaangor models and won't begrudge them at all if they end up in EC too. I did have high hopes for Jakhals, when all we knew about them was the name - but nope, just berserk cultists to go with the berserkers, super-berserkers and super-super-berserkers... *looks wistfully at old metal dog-faced Khorne beastmen*

i play Thousand Sons, i loathe how tzaangors take up half our legion exclusive range and a shoved as filler in most of our boxes too. The models themselves are nice, but damn do i wish we had more actual Thousand Sons units

Yeah I definitely get that side of things. Like how in 6th / 7th edition the best way to play CSMs was to... not take CSMs. But that's not what I signed up for!

So I play 3rd legion in heresy and wouldn't mind adding some 40k stuff if it came out. What I'd love to see is sticking to the themes of their heresy decline.

-swordsmen with a love of duels
-surgical augments
-obsessions going off the rails
-a dulling of sensory imput
-speed

Lots of cabels, inbuilt speakers and shrieking faces would be good, combat drug injectors built in all over the place. I guess take the design cues from Lucias and Bile then build upon them.

Possessed would be fun, but so would stitched together mutant monsters from Bile's labs. Acting like poorly refined eversor assasins, blowing up when killed in a spray of chems.

I think whips, swords and spears would be good signature weaponry to work with as well.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
i play Thousand Sons, i loathe how tzaangors take up half our legion exclusive range and a shoved as filler in most of our boxes too. The models themselves are nice, but damn do i wish we had more actual Thousand Sons units

World Eater players have much the same thinking, only they didn't get anything like Khornagors to fill that gap. WE just got a half-Codex, rather than a Codex half-filled with goatmen.

Slaangors are pretty cool models though. Shame there are only 3 of them, and they have no posability/variation outside or maybe a sword/axe and a tabard.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


Nah, the detachment for CSM will most certainly be

Sneaky Tricky detachment (totally not Alpha legion)
Fortification is my mission (totally not Iron Warriors)
Spooky dudes (totally not Night Lords)
God i love demons (totally not Word bearers)
Piracy, babyyy (totally not Red Corsairs)
Excess for my mistress (Totally not Emperor's children)

Too much credit by far. They're probably just going to be a mix of budget loyalist detachments and maybe some god-specific detachments. Sneaky Tricky= shadow masters, Bonuses for heavy weapons (IF=IW).
For 'future proofing' there probably won't even been a not!EC detachment.

No "totally not Black Legion" detachment?

Realistically I don't expect the detachments to align so closely to established subfactions, I think they will be more generalized and thematic. Its not like the Tyranid ones corresponded to specific hive fleets nor do the Space Marine ones really correspond to specific chapters either.

chaos0xomega wrote:
No "totally not Black Legion" detachment?

Realistically I don't expect the detachments to align so closely to established subfactions, I think they will be more generalized and thematic. Its not like the Tyranid ones corresponded to specific hive fleets nor do the Space Marine ones really correspond to specific chapters either.

the index detachment is the black legion one.

and the loyalist detachments align pretty closely to the chapters

I expect at least one Detachment to be Daemonkin.

 Gert wrote:
I expect at least one Detachment to be Daemonkin.

That's something I'd bet against you on, deamons are their own codex and I don't see them putting daemonkin into the CSM Codex, that's likely something we'll see towards the end of 10th as GW puts out story books with new rules and new detachments that allow for Hybriding

He might mean Daemonkin as in Possessed, Oblits and Daemon Engines.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
He might mean Daemonkin as in Possessed, Oblits and Daemon Engines.

fair I forgot about that, which is funny as I got the pack with em in it (marines and chaos marines? thats a box that adds to two of my armies!)

I just want them to release a separate box of Oblits and a proper Venomcrawler...

More likely in the 11th ed. Codex they legend cut the Venomcrawler entirely.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I just want them to release a separate box of Oblits and a proper Venomcrawler...

The level that I want a stand-alone Venomcrawler Is staggering.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
More likely in the 11th ed. Codex they legend cut the Venomcrawler entirely.

Why? They had a phase of putting it in everything for a while and it's one of the better daemon engines in the range (sadly).

It needs a few options which has always been alluded to thanks to the random thorax hole that looks like a mounting point.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
He might mean Daemonkin as in Possessed, Oblits and Daemon Engines.

Yes, basically all the Shadowspear stuff. It would be the not-Word Bearers detachment, if that's how it's going to get played out which is likely

Dudeface wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
More likely in the 11th ed. Codex they legend cut the Venomcrawler entirely.

Why? They had a phase of putting it in everything for a while and it's one of the better daemon engines in the range (sadly).

It needs a few options which has always been alluded to thanks to the random thorax hole that looks like a mounting point.

Same. I'd (at some point) expect a full kit and eventually a quiet retirement of the current dinobots and Defiler for models that are more in scale

Forge / Maulerfiend are only, what, 10 years old? Not sure they'll be in scope for replacement yet...

Crispy78 wrote:
Forge / Maulerfiend are only, what, 10 years old? Not sure they'll be in scope for replacement yet...

Yeah, and they look gooood.

Defiler (ideally with as a multikit for a Soul Grinder) NEEDS an update, make it fit with the other demon engines visually and get rid of that godawful "no base" style