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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Adding Cult Terminators to the game isn't "bloat". Jesus...

Depends on what the actual difference is from regular [marked] Terminators.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, the failure to include red butchers off the bat was mind-blowing to me. SOTs were deemed to be distinctive enough to warrant their own kit and unit entry, as were Death Guard and Blightlord Terminators. World Eaters termies with dual chain axes and berserker rules, and phoenix guard terminators or whatever they are called with, I dunno power spears and sonic weapons, both strike me as different enough to warrant kits and inclusion as well, contrary to Wyldhunts pov.

See, unless there's something extra special about Blightlords that I'm not aware of, I feel like they probably didn't need to be their own unit. They're basically just power weapon terminators with Disgustingly Resilient, right? You could totally add power spear sonic weapon terminators, and those would probably warrant their own datasheet, but those aren't an established canon thing that's missing from the game are they? Like, if you want to add stuff just to add stuff/because you think it's cool, that's fair. But that's also basically the definition of bloat isn't it?

And then as you add more and more units like that over time, you end up with the marine problem where there are so many units competing to perform the same job, some of them inevitably end up being redundant/second-stringers.

Blightlords weapon options are entirely non-standard, bubotic blades are not power swords, fails of corruption have no equivalent in the csm list, nor do Plague spewers and Blight launchers, technically Plague combi-bolters are distinct although that one is admittedly easy to translate.

As for power spear terminators, yes they exist in 30k. I guess technically they aren't spears but phoenix guard terminators are a unit that exist for emperors children. Just add sonic weapons to chaosify them a bit.

Slipspace wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 Gert wrote:
I'm going to disagree with that because a unit is more than just its wargear, it's the rules that go along with it and the army it fits into.

Well, they can be. But the nuances between an EC terminator and a generic CSM terminator need to be significant enough to be worth writing rules for. Like, you can swap out the chosens' Chosen Marauders rule for some sort of duelist special rule. That would be fun and fluffy and redefine their preferred role within the army. But I'm not sure we need a new box of "Phoenix Duelist" models that are basically just melee chosen with an extra datasheet entry.

EC terminators probably behave pretty much the same as Red Corsairs terminators, and that's okay.

I somewhat agree. To take it further, the new Detachment system allows for a lot of flexibility around changing how an army functions without changing a single datasheet. If you treat EC as similar to BA/DA that'd probably be fine. Maybe one or two unique units and one character along with 5-6 EC inspired detachments but still with the ability to just play them as one of the regular CSM detachments if you want. If GW are going to insist on a "less is more" approach in the style of WE, I'd much rather they did so by utilising the Detachment system and integrating more closely with the CSM Codex rather than gutting the army and reducing it to a nonsensical collection of a dozen units.

Yeah. Strongly agree. I don't want it to be a situation where EC actually eventually lose a bunch of units because GW wanted to sell a dozen EC kits that are mostly just generic CSM kits with more Slaaneshi symbols on them. Warp talons and possessed and pretty much any generic CSM unit you care to name all feel at-home in an EC army. The main changes I'd be looking for would be special abilities/detachment rules/maybe a couple wargear options. But to my mind, you don't need a new kit for that sort of thing.

Gert wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
but those aren't an established canon thing that's missing from the game are they?

Why is that a prerequisite? We're talking about 40k where the company line to canon is "Everything is canon, nothing is true". By that logic nothing new should ever be added to the game because it wasn't "canon" before it got added.

Lord Damocles wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Adding Cult Terminators to the game isn't "bloat". Jesus...

Depends on what the actual difference is from regular [marked] Terminators.

What Damocles said. Basically, I want us to avoid the loyalist marine situation of having 3 flavors of nearly identical terminator datasheets in one book plus the "special" faction-specific terminator variants in other books that are basically just normal termies with some extra wargear options. And to add to that, introducing ever-so-slightly-different versions of a unit means that you risk either:
A.) Having GW decide your old generic CSM unit is no longer allowed in an EC army because you should be buying the new EC-specific kit. Ex: Maybe they release some EC-specific warp talons, and now my old warp talons painted up to match my Slaaneshi army technically can't be used in that army.

B.) You risk making a similar datasheet into a second-stringer/never-take. I'm thinking of all the loyalist marine units that compete for the role as a melee unit (especially before assault marines were sent to Legends.) Between assault termies, reivers, assault marines, vanguard vets, assault centurions, assault intercessors, blade guard, and whatever faction-specific units your army might have, at least one of those units is probably stuck on the shelf because one of the other units does its job better.

But that's also basically the definition of bloat isn't it?

"Bloat" doesn't have a definition because to people like you, it means "units that are similar" but to others, it means "there should only be X profiles". It's a meaningless term bandied about by people who really want to say "I don't like new things, everything should be the same as it was when I most enjoyed 40k".

Respectfully, I feel like you're starting to put words in my mouth. I love seeing cool new units! I just want to avoid issues I detailed above. So if we're going to add a new unit to the game, I'd prefer it feel like it already has its own niche and feel significantly different from existing units.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Blightlords weapon options are entirely non-standard, bubotic blades are not power swords, fails of corruption have no equivalent in the csm list, nor do Plague spewers and Blight launchers, technically Plague combi-bolters are distinct although that one is admittedly easy to translate.

As for power spear terminators, yes they exist in 30k. I guess technically they aren't spears but phoenix guard terminators are a unit that exist for emperors children. Just add sonic weapons to chaosify them a bit.

Fair enough! And tbf, maybe sonic termies with lances are sufficiently distinct from generic termies to not run into problems. I'd just want to avoid having our new hypothetical sonic termies invalidate normal termies in some way; either by simply being the better option for most jobs or by literally becoming the only termies EC are allowed to field.

Bitter WE player here - expect disappointment...

I reckon it'll be a new Lucius (no-one mentioned him yet?), new Noise Marines, some disappointing cultists and something totally random that's shoe-horned in to the codex. Sonic dread will be missing, an unfathomable omission along the lines of the Red Butchers (or Teeth Of Khorne). Two thirds of the CSM codex will no longer be available.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

And then as you add more and more units like that over time, you end up with the marine problem where there are so many units competing to perform the same job, some of them inevitably end up being redundant/second-stringers.

That specifically isn't the way the Chaos books work, though. The three of the Big Four so far have had their access to normal units gutted. There is no 'same job' alternative that they can field. They just lose access to the majority of the chaos marine armory.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

As for power spear terminators, yes they exist in 30k. I guess technically they aren't spears but phoenix guard terminators are a unit that exist for emperors children. Just add sonic weapons to chaosify them a bit.

Fair enough! And tbf, maybe sonic termies with lances are sufficiently distinct from generic termies to not run into problems. I'd just want to avoid having our new hypothetical sonic termies invalidate normal termies in some way; either by simply being the better option for most jobs or by literally becoming the only termies EC are allowed to field.

Voss wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

And then as you add more and more units like that over time, you end up with the marine problem where there are so many units competing to perform the same job, some of them inevitably end up being redundant/second-stringers.

That specifically isn't the way the Chaos books work, though. The three of the Big Four so far have had their access to normal units gutted. There is no 'same job' alternative that they can field. They just lose access to the majority of the chaos marine armory.

What you're describing is what I meant by:

A.) Having GW decide your old generic CSM unit is no longer allowed in an EC army because you should be buying the new EC-specific kit. Ex: Maybe they release some EC-specific warp talons, and now my old warp talons painted up to match my Slaaneshi army technically can't be used in that army.

No disrespect to anyone who likes the idea of such units, but if the pitch for a new kit is basically to take unit X and then give it a relatively small twist... You end up either risking overlap (where one unit is always taken over the other) or risking GW deciding that you shouldn't retain access to the old unit.

So if we get possessed-but-make-them-Slaaneshi, how do you make them sufficiently different from normal possessed to avoid overlap? Ditto a hypothetical duelist unit compared to chosen or a hypothical sonic terminator squad and noise marines/normal termies? Not saying it can't work, but the introduction of an overly-similar unit makes me nervous. Plus, some of these ideas could just be done with detachment abilities or something. The duelists could literally just be a rule that you give to chosen. A detachment rule could just add/swap-out a special rule to possessed.

No new kits required and thus no risk of GW deciding your old units can't be used in your EC army any more. And no risk of the new duelist unit making chosen less desirable because the duelists are chosen.

That would only be true if Emperors Children or World Eaters or whomever had access to those units in the first place though, which they don't. There are no warp talons in the World Eaters book, nor in the Death Guard or Thousand Sons books. If GW released World Eaters specific Warp Talons, then that would only be a good thing because its a unit that they don't have now.

Emperors Children don't currently have a book at all, so anything that they get would automatically be more than what they have now, which is nothing.

chaos0xomega wrote:
That would only be true if Emperors Children or World Eaters or whomever had access to those units in the first place though, which they don't. There are no warp talons in the World Eaters book, nor in the Death Guard or Thousand Sons books. If GW released World Eaters specific Warp Talons, then that would only be a good thing because its a unit that they don't have now.

Emperors Children don't currently have a book at all, so anything that they get would automatically be more than what they have now, which is nothing.

Eh. I think we're looking at it from different angles. Currently, EC have access to all the generic CSM units. I don't think it would be a fun or fluffy change for them to suddenly lose access to most of those just like it wasn't a good change for World Eaters. Like, there probably should be warp talons in the WE and DG books, right? TS are a little bit of an odd duck because of the whole rubric thing.

Coming out with a handful of EC kits just so GW can restrict your unit selection and get you to buy EC-brand warp talons to replace the ones you already have just seems like a really undesirable outcome to me.

risking GW deciding that you shouldn't retain access to the old unit

That isn't a risk. That's the reality of what GW does with the chaos legions.

We're three books in. There's no room for doubt that they're going to do the same with book 4 of 4 [barring a sudden and extreme conversion of the entire management and design team to a completely different design philosophy]

They definitely are not going to do 'same kit but different rules.' That's counter to their entire design ethos and sales strategy.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Blightlords weapon options are entirely non-standard, bubotic blades are not power swords, fails of corruption have no equivalent in the csm list, nor do Plague spewers and Blight launchers, technically Plague combi-bolters are distinct although that one is admittedly easy to translate.

Eh.
Bubotic Blades might as well be standard Power Weapons (there's no need for axe/sword to have different rules). Plague Spewer is a plaguey Heavy Flamer. There's no reason Death Guard should be the only Legion to have retained their grenade/Blight Launchers and flails/two-handed melee weapons.

They're different because arbitrary differences have been imposed on them to sell variant rules and new models. What happened to all the Power Fists and Lightning Claws? It's funny that prior to the first Death Guard Codex nobody was bemoaning their inability to make Death Guard Terminators

See all those people complainging the God-Marked books invalidate your armies, no it doesn't.
Every single unit in that army is still perfectly legal and you can still absolutely play them as Emperor's Children because guess what? Nobody is stopping you.
The CSM Codex is still there and those units you claim you've lost access to aren't gone.
Don't like Blightlords and want to keep using your Nurgle bikes? Cool, don't use the Death Guard Codex. It's literally that goddamn easy.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
That would only be true if Emperors Children or World Eaters or whomever had access to those units in the first place though, which they don't. There are no warp talons in the World Eaters book, nor in the Death Guard or Thousand Sons books. If GW released World Eaters specific Warp Talons, then that would only be a good thing because its a unit that they don't have now.

Emperors Children don't currently have a book at all, so anything that they get would automatically be more than what they have now, which is nothing.

Eh. I think we're looking at it from different angles. Currently, EC have access to all the generic CSM units. I don't think it would be a fun or fluffy change for them to suddenly lose access to most of those just like it wasn't a good change for World Eaters. Like, there probably should be warp talons in the WE and DG books, right? TS are a little bit of an odd duck because of the whole rubric thing.

Coming out with a handful of EC kits just so GW can restrict your unit selection and get you to buy EC-brand warp talons to replace the ones you already have just seems like a really undesirable outcome to me.

No, currently CSM armies painted like EC have access to all of the generic CSM units. Thats not really the same thing.

 Gert wrote:
See all those people complainging the God-Marked books invalidate your armies, no it doesn't.
Every single unit in that army is still perfectly legal and you can still absolutely play them as Emperor's Children because guess what? Nobody is stopping you.
The CSM Codex is still there and those units you claim you've lost access to aren't gone.
Don't like Blightlords and want to keep using your Nurgle bikes? Cool, don't use the Death Guard Codex. It's literally that goddamn easy.

100% this.

Ideally, I'd like to be able to enjoy a hypothetical new sonic weapon detachment (or whatever) without also randomly having to give up a bunch of units that are perfectly fluffy for the faction.

Maybe GW won't make that possible, but it seems like a reasonable thing to want, no?

Yeah, and for now that's probably the better way of running my army. Can still use Berzerkers, and could get away with calling Kharn a Chaos Lord With Plasma Pistol And Accursed Weapon (TM). Lord On Juggernaut is still in Legends too. So yeah, that does sort me out - eightbound and jakhals don't especially appeal.

Kind of out there option?

Twin Bladesmen as what would once have been an Elite Choice.

Deploy as a unit of two. With sick HTH skills.

Models wise I’m thinking mirrored hermaphroditic aesthetic. So one is male on the left, the other male on the right. Really lean into that classic Slaaneshi look.

Gert wrote:See all those people complainging the God-Marked books invalidate your armies, no it doesn't.
Every single unit in that army is still perfectly legal and you can still absolutely play them as Emperor's Children because guess what? Nobody is stopping you.
The CSM Codex is still there and those units you claim you've lost access to aren't gone.
Don't like Blightlords and want to keep using your Nurgle bikes? Cool, don't use the Death Guard Codex. It's literally that goddamn easy.

Or hot take....
Just continue to use them

That's what I'm gonna do. Luckily i only play with people whom DO NOT SUCK, so we've already discussed this and it's not even remotely a problem.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Ideally, I'd like to be able to enjoy a hypothetical new sonic weapon detachment (or whatever) without also randomly having to give up a bunch of units that are perfectly fluffy for the faction.

Maybe GW won't make that possible, but it seems like a reasonable thing to want, no?

Then ally them in?

At the end of the day, GW dictates the fluff. If GW says EC don't have obliterators, then EC don't have obliterators, regardless of whether you think its fluffy or not, etc.

Also your objectives are at odds with themselves, you want to play with the sonic weapon units, but are arguing that hte sonic weapon units should not be implemented because they will render your generic units redundant. Basically, pick one, you can't have your cake and eat it to. Either GW introduces the bespoke units with the bespoke wargear options, or they don't.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Ideally, I'd like to be able to enjoy a hypothetical new sonic weapon detachment (or whatever) without also randomly having to give up a bunch of units that are perfectly fluffy for the faction.

Maybe GW won't make that possible, but it seems like a reasonable thing to want, no?

Then ally them in?

At the end of the day, GW dictates the fluff. If GW says EC don't have obliterators, then EC don't have obliterators, regardless of whether you think its fluffy or not, etc.

Fair enough. Just seems like an unfortunate hoop to have to jump through. Can we agree that ideally we'd be able to get new units without losing old ones or having the new ones render the old ones irrelevant?

Also your objectives are at odds with themselves, you want to play with the sonic weapon units, but are arguing that hte sonic weapon units should not be implemented because they will render your generic units redundant. Basically, pick one, you can't have your cake and eat it to. Either GW introduces the bespoke units with the bespoke wargear options, or they don't.

Eh. I suppose that's true. I know No Model No Rules is a thing now, but it doesn't seem like we should need a new bespoke kit just to give a chaos rhino a sonic blaster option. And if we got, say, a sonic dreadnaught, I think it would be reasonable to ask that it be designed in such a way that there's still a niche for a conventional hellbrute in the army.

Now you're asking too much lol, we've gone entire editions where hellbrutes haven't had a niche despite there not being any direct competition

 Gert wrote:
See all those people complainging the God-Marked books invalidate your armies, no it doesn't.

'Counts As' is never a solution.

GW officially disagrees with you

Legends: Legendary Units

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gert wrote:
See all those people complainging the God-Marked books invalidate your armies, no it doesn't.

'Counts As' is never a solution.

don't think of it as "Counts as" think of it as "two seperate ways to play the army"

My guess is EC's won't get a their own codex this edition, or if they do it'll be late 10th edition, more likely they'll get a detachment that focuses around it.

Taking a guess CSMs will get a slaanishi, Nurgle, Khorne, and Tzzetch and undivided detachments, the current detachment will, of course be the "black legionesque" in that it can run a mix.

EC are about perfection, so I'll suggest something we don’t see in other CSM: Snipers or A Sniper.
We don’t need to just flanderize the sonic thing all the time, but if we do, some blastmaster artillery thing could be interesting.

BrianDavion wrote:
Taking a guess CSMs will get a slaanishi, Nurgle, Khorne, and Tzzetch and undivided detachments, the current detachment will, of course be the "black legionesque" in that it can run a mix.

I hope we get a damn sight more than just five! Moreover, I'd like it if the "generic" detachment didn't have 5 God-locked enhancements, so if you're playing a themed force you basically can only ever take 1 enhancement.

 alextroy wrote:
GW officially disagrees with you

Cute.

But just taking the CSM 'Dex and saying "I'm playing World Eaters!" isn't really playing World Eaters. World Eaters have their own book, with their own rules, and own unique units (for good or for ill... mostly ill given the half-assed nature of that book).

What people want with EC is not a repeat of the WE book.

BrianDavion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gert wrote:
See all those people complainging the God-Marked books invalidate your armies, no it doesn't.

'Counts As' is never a solution.

don't think of it as "Counts as" think of it as "two seperate ways to play the army"

My guess is EC's won't get a their own codex this edition, or if they do it'll be late 10th edition, more likely they'll get a detachment that focuses around it.

Taking a guess CSMs will get a slaanishi, Nurgle, Khorne, and Tzzetch and undivided detachments, the current detachment will, of course be the "black legionesque" in that it can run a mix.

Valraks sources say late next year for EC as aheads up,which I think is the samesources who gave him the Leviathan info?

Dudeface wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gert wrote:
See all those people complainging the God-Marked books invalidate your armies, no it doesn't.

'Counts As' is never a solution.

don't think of it as "Counts as" think of it as "two seperate ways to play the army"

My guess is EC's won't get a their own codex this edition, or if they do it'll be late 10th edition, more likely they'll get a detachment that focuses around it.

Taking a guess CSMs will get a slaanishi, Nurgle, Khorne, and Tzzetch and undivided detachments, the current detachment will, of course be the "black legionesque" in that it can run a mix.

Valraks sources say late next year for EC as aheads up,which I think is the samesources who gave him the Leviathan info?

I suppose we'll find out when the CSM 'dex lacks noise marines

I like the idea of the Twinsouls from AoS, which sounds like instead of typical possession, is more of a pact with the two souls sharing the same body in a semi-equal relationship. Heck, even smooshing together a CSM and daemon soul together to create a truly unique being could be Slaanesh's interesting gimmick outside of noise marines.

Other than that, I doubt we'll see any 'new' or non standard weapons outside of sonic weaponry, but it'd be neat if they had access to non-standard munitions in limited quantities. Bolter shells that could force battleshock tests if they hit, a hypersonic missile that goes from the firing model to the edge of board and damages everything in that line, poison that can be applied to CCW's to give a unit anti infantry for a turn, things like that.

I feel like the problem here is 'Emperor's Children' and 'Noise Marines' are not synonymous, far moreso than any of the other cult legions - Thousand Sons canonically (I think?) are all sorcerers or animate armour full of dust, a Plague Marine is a pretty fair representation of a Death Guard legionary, Khorne's admittedly been flanderised to just 'carnage for carnage's sake' and martial valour and righteous fury have been shoved off to the side but basically a World Eater's a Berzerker... but Noise Marines' obsession with aural sense-freakery is just one possible aspect of Slaanesh, and honestly kind of a niche one, it's just that they happen to be more marketable, because it's easy to represent visually by just giving them mohawks and guitar guns and GW doesn't have to explain to concerned parents why little Timmy's come home with a box of drug-addicted rapists. Based on the existing cult codices Codex Emperor's Children is actually gonna be Codex Noise Marines (which is fine, give the Noise Marine cult a couple of extra troop options and characters and whatever), but I feel like there's so much more to the Emperor's Children than sound guns, there should be Emperor's Children legionaries even after 10,000 years who've gone off the deep end in entirely different ways and haven't become Noise Marines, and anecdotally I think many Emperor's Children players are attracted (ha) to that variety and bake it into their warbands both lore-wise and in how they build their armies on the tabletop, and the codex is inevitably going to disappoint them.

I've mentioned this before, but I think it's an error in marketing the lore to equate the legions to their cults exclusively - it's most obvious with the Emperor's Children/Noise marines and they stand to benefit most from avoiding the error, but my feeling is what GW should do is have legion army lists for all the legions in Codex CSM, including the big four and basic-troops rules for cult troops, then publish Codex Khorne Berzerkers, Codex Noise Marines, Codex Plague Marines, and Codex I dunno Rubricae or whatever they're called (I'm not that well versed on the other cults) where the cult troops get all the bells and whistles, to give players a choice of whether they want to go all-in on their god's specific cult, or just have a god-flavoured but still varied warband. I mean I'd love to see what Codex Noise Marines might have in store, but I never felt hamstrung just using the EC rules from Codex CSM in 9th, I felt like they gave my warband a specific and characterful flavour, and I don't see the problem of carrying on in that vein. EC players will still buy Noise Marines miniatures, most will probably still buy Codex Noise Marines just out of sheer relief at it finally being real - regular CSM players get the option of having 'basic' Noise Marines from Codex CSM if they want their army a little Slaaneshi but not a lot, or taking allies from Codex NM if they want to really get kinky but still be whatever other warband identity they're attached to, EC players can go all-sonic if they want or just keep whatever other flavour of nutcase perfection floats their boat and likewise have an allied NM contingent to use the new toys, and nobody gets pissed off by being told they're doing their army 'wrong'.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
'Counts As' is never a solution.

Good thing it isn't "Counts As" then right because you aren't proxying units as other units, you're using them as they are. The only reason the God-Marked Chaos books use Legion names is because of branding.