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Streamline the rules set, get rid of the obnoxious dice, the chits, the bloat- then come back to the table. THIS is supposed to be a Skirmish game, wasn't it?
Isn't skirmish just about the size of the game, not it's depth/complication? So you can have a skirmish game with a lot of depth, interlocking mechanisms and decision points and you can have a skirmish game where you simply push figures until they are in range and roll dice to see what happens.
Btw, is Warcrow really skirmish with its supposed model count in the 20's? It feels, similarly to Warmachine, more like middle ground between actual skirmish, like Kill Team (~10 models on average) and mass games with several 10-man or bigger squads.
Streamline the rules set, get rid of the obnoxious dice, the chits, the bloat- then come back to the table. THIS is supposed to be a Skirmish game, wasn't it?
Isn't skirmish just about the size of the game, not it's depth/complication? So you can have a skirmish game with a lot of depth, interlocking mechanisms and decision points and you can have a skirmish game where you simply push figures until they are in range and roll dice to see what happens.
Btw, is Warcrow really skirmish with its supposed model count in the 20's? It feels, similarly to Warmachine, more like middle ground between actual skirmish, like Kill Team (~10 models on average) and mass games with several 10-man or bigger squads.
you are 100% correct in my eyes. Infinity and One Page Rules Grimdark Firefight are both Skirmish systems. One is complex, the other a good introduction.
Skirmish by definition to my understanding has always been individual models with their own activation. Once you start getting into squads like Warcrow or Conquest First Blood, it becomes something else. That's probably up for debate more suited another thread, however.
~ Shrap
Rolling 1's for five decades.
AoS * Konflikt '47 * Conquest Last Argument of Kings * Team Yankee * Horus Heresy * The Old World * Armoured Clash
Streamline the rules set, get rid of the obnoxious dice, the chits, the bloat- then come back to the table. THIS is supposed to be a Skirmish game, wasn't it?
Isn't skirmish just about the size of the game, not it's depth/complication? So you can have a skirmish game with a lot of depth, interlocking mechanisms and decision points and you can have a skirmish game where you simply push figures until they are in range and roll dice to see what happens.
Btw, is Warcrow really skirmish with its supposed model count in the 20's? It feels, similarly to Warmachine, more like middle ground between actual skirmish, like Kill Team (~10 models on average) and mass games with several 10-man or bigger squads.
I don't know what Skirmish game to you is supposed to be, but the rest of us, it's a low model count, streamlined rules set where you don't have to play a game in 2 turns in 24 hours, nor is the game a challenge to get into when you have to sell your first born, just for a starter box. I should be able to pull off a box from the shelf, read a rules set, and get to playing as soon as my figures hit the table.
Infinity is more then a skirmish game now, and seeing Corvus Belli take the page out of GW's book, where expensive price point of figure is supposedly a standard of the game, I don't see this game as EITHER having depth, nor just about putting a couple of figures on the table and pushing them around.
It's overly complex, it's overly bloated, and it's not looking like fun when the price point is where it is, when the market is already inundated with better alternatives.
At this time, it really IS a Players Market, and game companies had better take note of the economy, and it's effect on players life outside the game room, quality of the game they are putting out, and price of their products.
You want an example? Malfaux, Warmachine, and the Clix craze- where each and every one of these companies forgot what they were doing, leading to shooting themselves in the foot in company Hari Kari.
The game that is not overly complex, has a good rules set, and has a good range of good looking figures is who will get paid. Everyone else is just a dead company with a temporary money stream.
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
Cyel wrote: When one person writes "for the rest of us" as if they were speaking for everybody, I know it's a sign to stop reading. Have a nice day.
If that's your only take, then thanks for playing, I guess.
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
I'm still thinking I'll eventually pick it up, but it's kind of the opposite of what I want in a miniatures game right now. Especially for a fantasy game. I'm always looking for more miniature agnostic games to expand and complement my current collection, but Warcrow is a little too self-contained boardgamey but yet without the benefit of actually being a complete self-contained boardgame. Once all 4 factions are out with the Beyond boxes and a few solos I'll start looking at it seriously, but the 2-faction starter set for that price isn't moving me.
we had a good demo teacher, and I like Warcrow quite a bit. The movement is fast and fluid, the actions system makes sense with some variety and flexibility; I like games with stress / morale although we did not get to units running away. The dice system with special abilities is very creative and fun, and magic is very rad -- the game is as much high risk / reward management as any other system I've played. What I am concerned about is needing separate models to optimize units, like Warmahordes 2nd edition. It made good waves tonight, I'm be discussing it with friends soon to assess where it may fall in our rotation.
~ Shrap
Rolling 1's for five decades.
AoS * Konflikt '47 * Conquest Last Argument of Kings * Team Yankee * Horus Heresy * The Old World * Armoured Clash
Is it though? I mean not the actual act of moving, but checking where units can get before making a decision to move.
This thing appeared in the latest edition of Warmachine, when they added teleporting models fro a unit after one of them moved, like in Warcrow. It was supposed to simplify movement but made checking where a unit can get more difficult.
With traditional movement if something moved 10" you measured 10" and knew that it will not reach an objective or it will have you in charge range unless you stay farther away etc.
With these new movement you need to run this math in your head, adding inches and milimeters (base sizes) to get the total distance a unit can travel, to premeasure where it can get before making an informed decision. I guess often you need to make this calculation for several units for a single move (for example "I want to move so that I am able to reach this objective next turn, but stay out of range of that enemy unit, and to be within the aura effect of this model when I move it next"). Is it really as fast and fluid as quickly checking 3 ranges in inches?
It was actually my first thought when I first saw how movement works in Warcrow: "premeasuring this before each decision will be a pain".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/08/02 07:05:34
Is it though? I mean not the actual act of moving, but checking where units can get before making a decision to move.
This thing appeared in the latest edition of Warmachine, when they added teleporting models fro a unit after one of them moved, like in Warcrow. It was supposed to simplify movement but made checking where a unit can get more difficult.
With traditional movement if something moved 10" you measured 10" and knew that it will not reach an objective or it will have you in charge range unless you stay farther away etc.
With these new movement you need to run this math in your head, adding inches and milimeters (base sizes) to get the total distance a unit can travel, to premeasure where it can get before making an informed decision. I guess often you need to make this calculation for several units for a single move (for example "I want to move so that I am able to reach this objective next turn, but stay out of range of that enemy unit, and to be within the aura effect of this model when I move it next"). Is it really as fast and fluid as quickly checking 3 ranges in inches?
It was actually my first thought when I first saw how movement works in Warcrow: "premeasuring this before each decision will be a pain".
You measure everything from/to the leader not just movement, so in my demo games it was as Mike described, fluid and fast. Extra models are mostly just tokens, but ultimately our hobby is super abstract and all models are just glorified tokens.
I'm not sure you got what mean. I am not talking about making an actual move, but rather measuring things before making a decision to get the information you need for this decision.
I will give a specific example: It's my activation and if enemy unit A can get to the objective in the next enemy activation I need to kill it now. If it can't, it can be left alone for now, and my unit has other, more important tasks.
With traditional moves I know the enemy unit A moves 10" so I measure if there's 10" between them and the objective and I make my decision.
But with these measurements? It moves a stride of , say 2", then add base size (is it in inches?) then add another stride then base size again, then the third stride and the final base size... How much in total? I need to know, because it will tell me what decision I have to make.
And there are multiple such informational measurements necessary to make a good move in any wargame I play. I'd even hazard a claim wargames are all about these, as they determine the thing most important in wargames, which is positioning, just like to play chess well you need to know which spaces your and enemy figures can get to. The most comon examples are
-staying outside enemy threat ranges
-reaching cover
-reaching objectives
-staying within or outside of area effects
Importantly it allows for clean play where you inform your opponent and agree on a measurement to avoid disagreement later. "I move here so that I am within 10" of this objective, so that I can reach it next turn".
These happen all the time and all need to be pre-measured to make sure you make a good move. With traditional movement all it takes is waving your tape measure around for a few seconds with no maths of adding inches to milimeters required.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/08/02 13:38:45
There is no adding of inches and millimeters as there are only strides (of 15mm) in the game.
Bases have a diameter of 2 strides or 4 strides for larger models.
However, the way models move makes it necessary to add up multiple strides to get the maximum distance or threat range, e.g. an infantry model (30mm or 2 stride base) with a movement of 3-3 has a total range of 10 strides (3+2+3+2).
So for players that like to premeasure everything, this could be tedious.
But, there are multiple factors that alleviate this „problem“:
1) for most measurements only the leader of the unit is relevant, which drastically reduces the number of measurements necessary
2) armies in warcrow usually only comprise a small number of individual units as the number of activations is limited (to about 5) per round
3) unlike normal movement, charge ranges are given by a single number
4) most units (for now) have a movement of 9, 10 or 11 strides which is easy to memorize so no additions are necessary
Warhammer CE the definite ruleset for Warhammer veterans
Well, that sounds like the best argument I’ve heard for making the distance measurement the “stride”—no more strange interactions caused by mixing metric and imperial measuring.
Yes, counting inches and milimeters for the same measurement (in Warmachine) was an idea born in hell. Smarter with these Strides that also measure bases neatly
So, there's a long measuring stick in the box. If premeasuring is allowed, use the stick quickly beforehand.
Is this really an issue? If so, it's an issue for any game that allows premeasuring.
The issue for me, is if when more models come out, even more rules get added. I always hated this in FFG games. Every expansion brings more complexity to the rules. Added complexity to the strategy of the game is fine, but I hate games that move into death by a million rules additions. I hope Warcrow sticks to the core rules - after all, the main rulebook is a tad expensive.
Currently most played: Silent Death, Mars Code Aurora, Battletech and currently trying Warcrow and Infinity.
Gimgamgoo wrote: So, there's a long measuring stick in the box. If premeasuring is allowed, use the stick quickly beforehand.
Is this really an issue? If so, it's an issue for any game that allows premeasuring.
Another one who didn't read what I was writing about with understanding... Anyway, the question of how it works in Warcrow is already answered, so whatever.
As a long time player of Infinity and hoping for a fantasy skirmish game with chunky rules to fill the Confrontation void, I've been looking forward to Warcrow for years, but now it's here it's a big disappointment to me.
The models are mostly OK to some standouts, but that's alrright. For me the setting gives the models character, and that's something that can emerge with time. But where Infinity's rules are dense, there're very few unnecessary rules in there. Warcrow, though, feels and plays as though it was written like the author was getting paid by the word.
What really got me though was the leaning on bespoke peripherals. The turn tracker, the dice - as mentioned - and even measurements. Just make it a bloody inch and be done. At least in Saga you can swap in D6s for their icon dice, but with Warcrow it's CB's dice or no dice (pun intended). I understand they chose that way to add additional variables, but there are other ways to do that without holding players ransom to your store.
I cancelled my pre order. I may jump in again if the scene here picks up, but it would purely be to play with friends I've made through Infinity.
The galaxy is littered with the single-planet graveyards of civilisations which made the economically sensible decision not to explore space.
.Mikes. wrote: As a long time player of Infinity and hoping for a fantasy skirmish game with chunky rules to fill the Confrontation void, I've been looking forward to Warcrow for years, but now it's here it's a big disappointment to me.
The models are mostly OK to some standouts, but that's alrright. For me the setting gives the models character, and that's something that can emerge with time. But where Infinity's rules are dense, there're very few unnecessary rules in there. Warcrow, though, feels and plays as though it was written like the author was getting paid by the word.
What really got me though was the leaning on bespoke peripherals. The turn tracker, the dice - as mentioned - and even measurements. Just make it a bloody inch and be done. At least in Saga you can swap in D6s for their icon dice, but with Warcrow it's CB's dice or no dice (pun intended). I understand they chose that way to add additional variables, but there are other ways to do that without holding players ransom to your store.
I cancelled my pre order. I may jump in again if the scene here picks up, but it would purely be to play with friends I've made through Infinity.
I hear you. I am not fond of movement, it makes it a bit fiddly to pre-measure it seems.
I think the way they did the dice and special abilities is pretty clever. I do not see how that could be replicated with straight D6's.
But... I do hate D8's. Wish they would of used 10's or 12's. they need ample side space for symbols, but I just dislike rolling clunky D8's so much.
I kept my pre-order after the demo. I had a fun time.
~ Shrap
Rolling 1's for five decades.
AoS * Konflikt '47 * Conquest Last Argument of Kings * Team Yankee * Horus Heresy * The Old World * Armoured Clash
Not a fan of the blue skin on these minis. (I feel like they might look better with a different paint job). But that sniper and those dwarves are aces.
@.Mike's.
No other books have been mentioned.
There is the download rules which I think are at the back of the big hardback rulebook. The introductory rulebook in the starter box has a campaign to teach to play the game. I don't know if these rules have everything the download rulebook has.
I'll be waiting a while for mine to come from my FLGS in the UK, but maybe someone that bought at GenCon has more info.
Currently most played: Silent Death, Mars Code Aurora, Battletech and currently trying Warcrow and Infinity.
.Mikes. wrote: Have I missed news on the realse of just a core rulebook?
I think they announced it along with the starter box and dice packs as the very first release wave. It definitely is listed on their own company store site.
The book looks really, really nice from the glimpses I've seen. Tempted to pick it up just for the storyline.
It's avail for pre-order on numerous game store websites.
~ Shrap
Rolling 1's for five decades.
AoS * Konflikt '47 * Conquest Last Argument of Kings * Team Yankee * Horus Heresy * The Old World * Armoured Clash
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted) 
