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2013/11/17 14:04:56
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
azreal13 wrote: You're quoting me out of context, then getting upset about it. Are you sure you're NOT a woman?!
Well, you are certainly working hard to prove that the people in the hobby are the problem instead of sexualised art/miniatures! BTW, if you find women being upset at you often, you might want to try not being so blatantly sexist. It might help!
Now hang, at what point have I been sexist? Sexism is the discrimination of a person based solely on their gender. Never, not once, have I ever, in this thread or in real life, suggested I believe that women are inferior to men. Different, yes, naturally suited to different tasks, yes, inclined towards interests that aren't so appealing to men, absolutely.
In fact, that comment in your quote is so blatant, it is almost like I was making a joke, but sense of humour failures seem pretty rife around here just now.
You better make damn sure you've got your facts straight before you start throwing around accusations of sexism, because that's pretty offensive.
It obviously suits you to picture me as some sort of misogynistic chauvinist, but you're flat out wrong. Women are rarely upset with me, certainly not because I espouse some antiquated view about women belonging in the kitchen or other bs. In fact, my closest, dearest friend is a woman, an ex-girlfriend in fact (I'm still on speaking terms with most of my exes to one extent or another, to give a perspective on how many women I've "upset") and while I provide her with many reasons to get exasperated at me, my sexist views sure as hell aren't one of them.
So back the hell off, just because I take what I feel is a more pragmatic view of the differences between the genders than your rather more staunchly liberal one doesn't make me some sort of Victorian dinosaur.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/17 14:06:15
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Now hang, at what point have I been sexist? Sexism is the discrimination of a person based solely on their gender. Never, not once, have I ever, in this thread or in real life, suggested I believe that women are inferior to men. Different, yes, naturally suited to different tasks, yes, inclined towards interests that aren't so appealing to men, absolutely.
'Separate but equal' is bs. You display othering attitude towards women, going so far as claiming that they might as well be separate species.
In fact, that comment in your quote is so blatant, it is almost like I was making a joke, but sense of humour failures seem pretty rife around here just now.
I'm content with my view. I would never discriminate against someone solely for their gender, any more than I would for the colour of their skin or their religious beliefs.
Trying to say that women and men are equal in all things, when sexual dimorphism is so common in nature, and so obvious in humans, is where the BS lies in this little exchange.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
No one is claiming that sexual dimorphism doesn't exist, merely that culture has a huge impact too, and individuals differ greatly from the average anyway. And of course there is no excuse for your othering comments or sexist jokes.
Crimson wrote: No one is claiming that sexual dimorphism doesn't exist, merely that culture has a huge impact too, and individuals differ greatly from the average anyway. And of course there is no excuse for your othering comments or sexist jokes.
Of course there is, it isn't bloody mass genocide, the problem is any attempt at levity in this thread has the more po faced amongst the participants up in arms at the "wrongness" and "unfairness" of it all.
Or are you one of those people who believe "there's no such thing as jokes?"
Here's a question, which came first, and therefore more likely had a greater influence on the other, sexual dimorphism in humans or any sort of anything we would recognise as a culture?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Of course there is, it isn't bloody mass genocide, the problem is any attempt at levity in this thread has the more po faced amongst the participants up in arms at the "wrongness" and "unfairness" of it all.
Or are you one of those people who believe "there's no such thing as jokes?"
No. But to find that joke funny, one must at least partly belive that what it implies is true, ie. women are irrational and are upset for silly reasons. That joke tells me something about what sort of person you are.
Here's a question, which came first, and therefore more likely had a greater influence on the other, sexual dimorphism in humans or any sort of anything we would recognise as a culture?
Sexual dimorphism. And the we moved out of the caves. Or at least some of us did. See, a joke.
Agamemnon2 wrote: I don't understand why, either, there's so much more fertile ground for dispute in the miniatures hobby.
My personal theory is that there are many unfortunates out there who believe if you white knight hard enough on the internet, girls will track you down and love you.
2013/11/17 15:27:50
Subject: Re:Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
Of course there is, it isn't bloody mass genocide, the problem is any attempt at levity in this thread has the more po faced amongst the participants up in arms at the "wrongness" and "unfairness" of it all.
Or are you one of those people who believe "there's no such thing as jokes?"
No. But to find that joke funny, one must at least partly belive that what it implies is true, ie. women are irrational and are upset for silly reasons. That joke tells me something about what sort of person you are.
It tells you squat about who I am, but the fact that you're happy to simply pigeon hole a total stranger based on a few comments made anonymously over the Internet (in a discussion with absolutely no importance to anything in the grand scheme of things) tells me plenty about you.
Here's a question, which came first, and therefore more likely had a greater influence on the other, sexual dimorphism in humans or any sort of anything we would recognise as a culture?
Sexual dimorphism. And the we moved out of the caves. Or at least some of us did. See, a joke.
Not a joke, that's a fact, although I'm sure dimorphism in apes goes a lot further back than that.
Regardless, it is almost certain then that gender roles in society evolved along the lines of the biological aptitudes of the two genders, ie males as warriors/hunters and women as gatherers/nurturers. In evolutionary terms we are barely an eye blink down the road from that point in time, so why on earth would the two genders suddenly be equal in all things all of a sudden?
Don't get me wrong, the society we live in now obviously allows for a great many more opportunities for a person of either gender to compete equally, but biologically, we really aren't much different from the cave dwellers, so any argument that men and women are equally good at all things (ignoring rare deviations from the mean) is fundamentally flawed.
A totally gender neutral society is an admirable idea, but if it needs any sort of discrimination, positive or negative, to bring about something even close to it in reality, then it needs to remain an idea.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
No. But to find that joke funny, one must at least partly belive that what it implies is true, ie. women are irrational and are upset for silly reasons.
I think that a lot of people with experience of women will agree with that. I'm not sure I'd say that they are irrational as such but they certainly have a tendency to pursue extremely different thought processes which results in an appearance of irrationality.
2013/11/17 18:59:57
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums.
2013/11/17 19:00:01
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
Well, at least this thread has been massively helpful at demonstrating what the real problem is and why women might not feel that welcome in the wargaming community.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/17 19:05:36
Crimson wrote: Well, at least this thread has been massively helpful at demonstrating what the real problem is and why women might not feel that welcome in the wargaming community.
Everything you have said is genuinely unfair. Insulting Az by labelling him a sexist chauvinistic pig just because he disagrees with you is totally out of order.
If he is sexist, then the vast majority of the human race (including every woman I have asked about this topic) is also sexist.
Funny thing, every single girl I know (and I brought this thread up in the pub last night because It seemed a good topic for bar conversation in front of my missus, my mate and his wife, and two lesbians who are married, this is California!) says the same! None of those girls considered it seixst when I said "generally speaking girls arent as in to wargames and violent pursuits and such right?", and they all happily agreed, with the caveat that one of the girls likes Grand Theft Auto, but not as much as me.
Conceding that women are physically weaker, and are generally less interested in pursuits like hunting and shooting and making war than men, doesn't make you sexist, it makes you a correctly operating human being with a functioning brain that sees things logically.
If you do think that accepting a fact makes you sexist, I suggest you read up on sexism, because people like you are part of the problem. In the same way that people who lie about rape and racism cheapen the words, because it causes actual victims of both of those actions to be unfairly labelled or less likely to be believed, your actions cheapen the very word. Its also funny that you think women are such weak creatures they get offended or upset at such a simple debate. One of the girls I was speaking to yesterday said she found the things that people like you say to be entirely patronizing, like she cant easily engage in a robust defence herself?
So if you think about it, only one of us is dragging women down here, and it isnt Az or me, its you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/17 20:17:35
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
2013/11/17 20:36:11
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
Everything you have said is genuinely unfair. Insulting Az by labelling him a sexist chauvinistic pig just because he disagrees with you is totally out of order.
Not because he disagreed with me. Because he insisted women might as well be another species and made a sexist joke. Now, of course I don't know him, and my impression of him might be wrong, but what he has said on this thread is the only thing I can base my characterisation of him on.
Funny thing, every single girl I know (and I brought this thread up in the pub last night because It seemed a good topic for bar conversation in front of my missus, my mate and his wife, and two lesbians who are married, this is California!) says the same! None of those girls considered it seixst when I said "generally speaking girls arent as in to wargames and violent pursuits and such right?", and they all happily agreed, with the caveat that one of the girls likes Grand Theft Auto, but not as much as me.
Conceding that women are physically weaker, and are generally less interested in pursuits like hunting and shooting and making war than men, doesn't make you sexist, it makes you a correctly operating human being with a functioning brain that sees things logically.
No, but joking that women are silly and irrational probably does make you sexist. Also, it is one thing to accept than on average men like wargames more and quite other to conclude that because of that it is okay to cater only to males when designing wargames.
If you do think that accepting a fact makes you sexist, I suggest you read up on sexism, because people like you are part of the problem. In the same way that people who lie about rape and racism cheapen the words, because it causes actual victims of both of those actions to be unfairly labelled or less likely to be believed, your actions cheapen the very word. Its also funny that you think women are such weak creatures they get offended or upset at such a simple debate. One of the girls I was speaking to yesterday said she found the things that people like you say to be entirely patronizing, like she cant easily engage in a robust defence herself?
So if you think about it, only one of us is dragging women down here, and it isnt Az or me, its you.
I'm sure women are completely capable of arguing for themselves, Apple Fox certainly did so in this very thread.
Everything you have said is genuinely unfair. Insulting Az by labelling him a sexist chauvinistic pig just because he disagrees with you is totally out of order.
Not because he disagreed with me. Because he insisted women might as well be another species and made a sexist joke. Now, of course I don't know him, and my impression of him might be wrong, but what he has said on this thread is the only thing I can base my characterisation of him on.
Rot.
I have explicitly told you what my beliefs are, you have chosen to disregard that in favour of jumping all over something said in jest.
I seem to remember reading something along the lines that most Fins believe that Finland is a racist country, but only a small minority admit to racist convictions. Now, based on that small piece of info, alongside the flag on your posts, I'm going to conclude you are a closet racist, and completely disregard any protestations you make to the contrary. Fair enough?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Crimson wrote:Also, it is one thing to accept than on average women like aerobics more and quite other to conclude that because of that it is okay to cater only to females when advertising them.
The quotation above has been modified slightly, but now who disagrees with the latter part?
See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums.
2013/11/17 22:18:04
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
I gave my girlfriend a read of this thread and she, as a woman, thinks it's nuts. She also points out that putting women on a pedestal like they need to protected is just as 'sexist' as saying they are quicker to get irrationally emotional.
What this image suggests to me that maybe He-Man hasn't been subject to enough scrutiny or criticism. I know I never found male action figure characters at all appealing as a child. They were always these grotesque hunks of muscle with poor problem solving skills and a terrible taste in clothes. He-Man was egregiously bad in this regard, and the idea that some boys might prefer a different kind of hero is still considered a freak outlier today. For my part, it wasn't until I learned to read that I found characters I could actually relate to. As a kid I wanted to be Captain Nemo.
The more you look at He-Man there, the weirder he gets. That outfit is straight out of a pride parade in San Fran. It's hardly a "neutral" generic appearance when you get down to it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/17 22:28:35
The supply does not get to make the demands.
2013/11/17 22:28:44
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
Im not sure. To tell you the truth, ive been lost since around page 20.
Really i think this is becoming some massive OT slug fest, as we seem to have deviated this way and that. We have the reason, women just are not into wargaming, shocking as it may seem. It has nothing to do with the minis. Lets leave it at that shall we, rather than trying to drag this out because we feel our views are right and all others are wrong, etc etc etc
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
2013/11/18 01:38:47
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
azreal13 wrote: You know, I'm half tempted to report you for that, I'm mean, seriously, your entire post is composed of snarky comments and patronising tone.
What?
Weren't you the one who implied the only reason men could care about women feeling welcomed in gaming was so that they could get laid? You even went on about it again saying anyone on the other side of the issue (the side with the only actual woman in the thread on it, too) must not know anything about women. You kind of implied only permavirgins could care about sexist depictions of women.
And then you have the gall to threaten to report someone else?
PS: There are a lot of us who want the hobby to be more inviting to women so that we can enjoy the hobby with our spouses.
Agamemnon2 wrote: The more you look at He-Man there, the weirder he gets. That outfit is straight out of a pride parade in San Fran. It's hardly a "neutral" generic appearance when you get down to it.
He did give us literally the greatest music video of all time, now in a convenient extended version
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2013/11/18 04:17:20
Subject: Re:Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
Agamemnon2 wrote: I don't understand why, either, there's so much more fertile ground for dispute in the miniatures hobby.
My personal theory is that there are many unfortunates out there who believe if you white knight hard enough on the internet, girls will track you down and love you.
Not because he disagreed with me. Because he insisted women might as well be another species and made a sexist joke. Now, of course I don't know him, and my impression of him might be wrong, but what he has said on this thread is the only thing I can base my characterisation of him on.
There are enough studies done that male and female brains process problems differently. So there are not only physical difference between men and women but also the brains are different, maybe that is why all those eons of miscommunication come from.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/18 04:28:02
mattyrm wrote: Everything you have said is genuinely unfair.
But it's "genuinely fair" and not at all insulting to insinuate that no man would ever take the opposite side in this argument unless he were a permavirgin white-knighting for womankind thinking it'll get him laid?
Desubot wrote: Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.
"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game."
2013/11/18 07:42:36
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
Agamemnon2 wrote: I don't understand why, either, there's so much more fertile ground for dispute in the miniatures hobby.
My personal theory is that there are many unfortunates out there who believe if you white knight hard enough on the internet, girls will track you down a and love you.
Ah yes, "white knighting". A term invented whole cloth by the people who also coined gems such as "redpill", "mangina", "friendzoning", and "negging". Purveyors of misogynist fantasies and cloudcuckooland relationship advice for the benighted masses, bouncing ideas off each other in a permanent echo chamber. The MRA/PUA community has a lot to answer for in the final tally, but belonging to it is in many ways its own punishment.
I find it telling that nowhere in that paradigm is the idea even entertained that maybe some men are feminists because they think of women as actual humans deserving of the same rights and responsibilities as everyone else. No, it has to be a selfish power play. Possibly said fantasists are projecting their own predilections on their enemies, which raises the question "Who is it that you actually have a problem with?" As for my own part, I'm not a white knight, I'm a Rainbow Warrior. Deal with it.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: PS: There are a lot of us who want the hobby to be more inviting to women so that we can enjoy the hobby with our spouses.
Your spouses have told you the reason they're not into wargaming with little plastic soldiermens is because of cleavage on some models?
I find that hard to believe.
No, sexism. That was the reason. My wife felt uncomfortable around the gamers at the Battle Bunker and Brookhurst hobbies. The way they stared at her, talked to her and treated her creeped her out. Seeing the cheesecake art was just more of a reminder of that. It isn't the totality of the problem by a long shot, but it is still a component in it.
For example, she loves painting Reaper Bones monsters, but when she saw the nipple studs on the fire giant queen, she thought it was ridiculous, cheesy and a bit of a turn off. So I showed her Batman and Robin. That stopped her laughing, but unfortunately the model was ruined for her forever. Models of fully-armored women with somehow-visible butt cheeks have the same affect.
Due to her personal history, she is also pretty sensitive to gender-based double standards. The inquisitor's cleavage wouldn't have bothered her much (as it didn't bother me much), but a lot of other examples alluded to in this thread would have. Having paladin men in full plate and paladin women, for example, in bustiers, thongs and thigh-highs is just blatant. If you combine the popularity of that kind of disparity with the prevalence of Brother Vinnie-type exploitative cheesecake, which she is aware of, it makes for a pretty ugly picture for her.
This is my problem statement, where I think the leap is. What is ugly about the picture it makes for her? That men like looking at half-nude women? That companies will cater to that drive? That some young men view women as sexual objects?
None of this should be a surprise to anyone, cheesecake models or no.
2013/11/18 08:23:10
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
This is my problem statement, where I think the leap is. What is ugly about the picture it makes for her? That men like looking at half-nude women? That companies will cater to that drive? That some young men view women as sexual objects?
None of this should be a surprise to anyone, cheesecake models or no.
Surprise or no, it can be unpleasant.
Often, that is all they see her as. She is often treated as a total noob by guys who stare at her chest and just assume she knows nothing about the games or sci fi because she is a woman. Also, there is a difference between "men like breasts" and "a lot of men in this field only want to see cheesecake", and also "male gamers support a lot of rape fantasy minis." Cheesecake wouldn't be so much of an issue if there were a lot more decent models for her to balance out the issue, which is why I'm excited about Dreamforge and Victoria minis.
Besides, it's not too much to ask that companies cater to women, men who like competent women, and also horny men who like breasts instead of only catering to one demographic. When companies cater to young men who view women as sexual objects, they are telling her that they are not interested in her as a customer (or a person). When many companies alienate her, she is naturally crowded out of the wargaming mainstream, certainly not welcomed.
