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I think autoguns are probably not a problem with any well-supplied unit, but lasguns let you focus on other stuff if the supply chain gets a bit squeezed. On the other side, you have lascannons, which may also run in a similar kind of power pack that is easily recharged in the field. As an aside, this leads one to wonder why the multilaser isn't the third leg of this triad, it would make a good replacement for both the heavy bolter and autocannon, which can't be easy to supply.

A better reason to use lasguns, however, might be training. No recoil, no need to worry about bullet drop or wind. This leaves more time for fieldcraft and indoctrination, which is probably important when the expected enemies are literally straight out of your nightmares. Space Marines take care of the indoctrination thing way early, and train all the time, so the extra effort it takes to get good with a bolter is worth it.

The only reason I see that they use infantry in 40k is the imperium needs to do something with all its people. If people don't have some foreign enemy to fight they tend to look at their own problems and question what they have. And if you can raise a regiment that has a billion soldiers in it in a short amount of time, there are probably some serious socio economic issues.

Also do auto guns make a flash when they shoot? Current firearms don't (well maybe in the movies they do) So if an argument in the fantasy world could be made with some kind of real world analogy I suppose they would be better.

Back to the new guard book though.

I don't really need to see a return of doctrines to play a themed list. With the book as it is now, I can run three different regiments in a somewhat fluffy way (Steel Legion, Vostroyan and a Cadian/Catachan urban fighter mix). I love the way the current book is arranged so I can field these somewhat distinct lists. If Stormtroopers were better I'd love to run them more often.

Take it to the gothic space opera military logistics sub forum guys...

Who cares if it goes off topic? Change the name to mega Guard Thread with a huge side of rumors and we shall be set to talk about whatever.

And themed lists are possible with the current set up but only in the form of weapons really. Theres so much potential for more than just weapons.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Who cares if it goes off topic?

The mods, I expect

Looks like there are still no real rumours to digest, so this is probably heading for another lock.

 Slinky wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Who cares if it goes off topic?

The mods, I expect

Looks like there are still no real rumours to digest, so this is probably heading for another lock.

Its a shame really, its not like there is any harm in letting people talk about whatever, i mean its not like we are talking about the social behaviors of wealthy people or anything, its still about the guard!

Oh well

Forums have threads for a reason, if you want to discuss the weaponry of the Guard, go ahead... but make a thread about it.

Wow, I can't believe my fantasy solid ammo Guard outfit idea has kicked off such a long discussion!

I have just found these anyway

http://www.anvilindustry.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=60_87&product_id=307

Ok it says silenced but it would fit into the overall look of the army, I just love the idea of giving my 'vets' the rare and special Lasguns..!

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Forums have threads for a reason, if you want to discuss the weaponry of the Guard, go ahead... but make a thread about it.

I. Disagree.

I reckon threads start a discussion, if it where my way it would be allowed to go anywhere the contributors please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 throwoff wrote:
Wow, I can't believe my fantasy solid ammo Guard outfit idea has kicked off such a long discussion!

I have just found these anyway

http://www.anvilindustry.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=60_87&product_id=307

Ok it says silenced but it would fit into the overall look of the army, I just love the idea of giving my 'vets' the rare and special Lasguns..!

http://madrobotminiatures.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=9_12

Have you checked these out?

My thread din't need rebooting

 Swastakowey wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Forums have threads for a reason, if you want to discuss the weaponry of the Guard, go ahead... but make a thread about it.

I. Disagree.

I reckon threads start a discussion, if it where my way it would be allowed to go anywhere the contributors please.

Almost every forum I've been to disagrees with you. Including this one. Prompting more discussion is good, but keeping this thread on topic and starting a new thread for the new conversation makes the forum managable and lets everyone in on the discussion (there might be people interested in what you are discussing but aren't interested in IG rumours so will never see it, and there are people not interested in what you are saying but are coming here to see news and rumours). Start a new thread and post a link to it in this one if you want. Its da rules...

There are 3 rules that if broken will land you in trouble, so please pay special attention -


1. Rule #1 is Be Polite! It's easy!

2. Stay on the original topic of the thread. It's really easy to wander off, but if you find yourself diverging too much from the original topic, start a new thread.

3. No Spam. This includes image only posts with no text. Memes are generally discouraged but allowed on rare occasions so long as restraint is shown and the content does not contravene rules 1 and 2. Relentless, repetitive posting in the same thread may also be considered spam if it prevents others from participating or prevents people from having a discussion.

spam deleted.

Reds8n

 Red Corsair wrote:
Also if your combat doctrine is guerrilla warfare and stealth then arming your covert troops with what is essentially flashlights is beyond stupid.

Seriously ? Lasers are “essentially flashlight” ? Did you ever tried to do surgery with a flashlight ?
Beside, have you really never saw a laser pointer ?


See how it is just a luminous point. Not a long luminous line, except maybe if it is very foggy. If you do not look precisely at the right place at the right time, you are going to miss it completely.

Sorry about fueling the off-topic, but I see this “flashlight” comparison just too often, and it does not make any sense ! It is like a gun is essentially the same as a staple gun !

If it isn't News and Rumors, please take it to 40k Discussions.
I came to hear the News and Rumours about the upcoming IG codex and releases, but got 2 pages of autoguns.

It's saying that lasguns are about as effective as a flashlight in game terms. It's not to be taken literally.

 throwoff wrote:
More the effort of tracking down enough autoguns than anything else, with the weapons options you get in a marine squad etc now I couldn't see it being too much difficulty for GW to add a dozen autoguns to a guard squad sprue.

If I did want to play with it though I would like to see the autogun readded to the rule book, personally I would see it as 'assault' rather than rapid fire.

The backwater guard army has been my 'fantasy' army for a long long time, I will do it eventually!

yes. GW should include 'autogun' as its own entry or is it really pointless?

If speculation and wish listing is off-topic (uh, what, that's stupid to begin with) and talking about the nature of the IG in question is off topic what is on topic? There are no rumours to comment on.

The auto gun debate is worthy of curiosity because it reflects the logic of GW potentially including autoguns with Guardsmen in the new update.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
40 milleniums of advancement your say? Yet they conduct warfare 100 years out of date by todays standards... Yup pretty much. My tanks all have exhausts which tells me they must run on some form of crude fuel, battle tanks use A LOT of fuel. If you have no issue with fuel supply you should have no issue with ammo. That was my point you missed.

Except unfortunately 1+1=2, where 2 is double the amount of resources you have to manage, supply and deal with. There are issues with fuel supply regardless, but there is no need for creating pointless issues with ammo supply which a munitorum official would probably have a headache over and seek to rectify pretty quickly.

Yea, air drops are so hard now right... Oh well, you clearly don't agree with auto guns, even though they ARE a part of the fluff. The fluff which is very much dependent on suspension of disbelief anyway, which was my point. So agree to disagree I suppose.

The IG don't have a practical large craft for air-dropped munitions, probably to prevent themselves from wasting resources. Its also relatively useless to have a supply aircraft in a siege scenario where they need to drop close to the front and risk getting shot down, or drop onto a supply point which doesn't eliminate the issues I've mentioned beforehand, where you need the extra fuel, trucks and men to manage the supply chains for moving out those munitions.

All the same, a regiment that at the moment in time needs to begin off-world duties is going to get Lasguns well before they get such aircraft.

Again, you missed the bigger picture and point. Their is seriously so much nonsense and space magic and holes in the canon and fluff, multiplied by countless reginments and doctrines in innumerable environments that it is silly to argue that autoguns can't make sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if your combat doctrine is guerrilla warfare and stealth then arming your covert troops with what is essentially flashlights is beyond stupid.

Is it though? The lasgun trail will probably be faint, will be brief, and the sound is blissfully probably going to be far quieter than a stubber shell, which if anything is the bigger problem.

From what I have seen in every video game and also art work, those las guns are similar to those of star wars. Full ranged beams basically of red like. Sorry but the long las sniper rifle for example is ludicrously stupid for that reason alone. Same thing goes for covert operatives, guns can be suppressed VERY easily.

Again, less sound is far better than less visibility because visibility 3/4 of the time won't matter for squat.

As for suppressors, that's more resources you need, and at that point you have to look back and say, wait, we have the sort of ballistic sound suppressors issued to modern special forces, but can't get the standard issue AK-47 of the 41st Millennium? Eh?

Besides the fact that I'm pretty sure suppressors don't even exist in 40k because of that. Its a high tech upgrade to a low tech inferior weapon when you could just issue the troops with standard issue weapons.

SM scouts want a word with you. And no suppressors are laughably easy top make even now, and cheaply. You also keep ignoring the fact that regiments already exist that use autoguns. You also ignore the point I am making that they can have a place, not that they should replace lasguns. BOTH CAN EXIST. Did you finally gather that part?

They're Space Marines, given some of the best equipment in the entire Imperium.

All sanctioned tech in 40k has to be an STC or proven to be of Old Terra iirc, the latter of which probably doesn't apply at all here because of the distance of a back-water planet and the lack of evidence they'd be able to accumulate, nevermind not having the Tech in the first place.

The Mechanicus isn't going to give you an STC that probably doesn't even exist or is reserved for Space Marines only just so you can orchestrate a logistical horror.

Given to Regiments that operate, at any point, off their Home World, they're not practical and shouldn't co-exist with Lasguns, because the moment anyone with a pair of braincells to rub together realises what a waste of resources and what a flaw in logic they're exercising they're going to get their standard issue cheapo 40k AK-47's, one can bet.

Really no need to get hostile. Maybe I misread that though, but either way I think you need to realize this is a fantasy game with impossible things in it already. So the amount of real world reasoning you are applying is a double edged sword. Your telling me logistically autoguns can't work. Yet in the same breath that space magic is used by the tech priests Lasguns don't make sense physically either for that matter.

Realistically they would never use infantry. Why on earth would you if you had transwarp technology and spacecraft. Jesus we use drones today, why wouldn't they use air craft and drones. Don't even tell me they don't have drones because my servo skulls say otherwise.

I'm not getting hostile. Just because one thing doesn't make sense doesn't make nothing can make sense, I mean Jesus Christ my quip about the Admech was just a joke, and for all I know I'm probably wrong. I mean that's a really lame way to kill an argument.

Of course they would use infantry, they are a fundamental part of any fighting force on the ground. I mean never mind the fact that drone style infantry would be A) Forbidden tech and B) A massive waste of resources, so would never take over the role of fleshy Guardsmen.

The Imperium has the factories to produce a lot of tanks and fighting vehicles, but not enough of either alone to hold the line. An infantry man is cheap to outfit and set up and only requires a Las gun and flak armour to be built in a particularly sophisticated factory.

You have billions of men you could turn into effective infantry, and instead you're just going to do nothing with them? Huh? An armoured company has about 10 Leman Russes, an infantry/mechanised company has 1000 men + Chimeras for each squad. Which do you want to form the bulk of your forces? One is going to hold the line for far longer (and hint, its not the tanks) and you can have more of them than armoured companies.

Servo skulls don't prove anything, except that the Imperium has scout drones.

OK Omega, I am done with the side rant with you. I refuse to have a conversation with someone who can justify hand held laser technology in the first place but can't justify situation where solid ammo is better. Have you ever tried using a flashlight or laser pen through smoke or fog? Yup, stops light, which is what lasers are, which is why they will never be practical.

OK, I'll bite....

We use lasers here for site-to-site comms, and fog and mist blocks the beam.
But, that's not a military-grade laser.

Different wavelengths penetrate different things better or worse.

 Red Corsair wrote:
OK Omega, I am done with the side rant with you. I refuse to have a conversation with someone who can justify hand held laser technology in the first place but can't justify situation where solid ammo is better. Have you ever tried using a flashlight or laser pen through smoke or fog? Yup, stops light, which is what lasers are, which is why they will never be practical.

You refuse to continue because you can't hack that I don't agree? Ok, sure, whatever, the easiest way to be assured you're right is to not bother listening to anyone contesting it I guess.

And yes, between 40 Millenniums of advancement and laser physics of today that already show what you describe would be a non-issue, that's not a valid point.

Solid ammo is logistically bad, less lethal in some circumstances since Lasgun shots cook internal organs when and if they pierce body armour (it's in the Imperial Infantryman's primer, if that happens, Medics are advised to move onto another wounded soldier because they're screwed), thr autogun is not better as a stealth weapon, has greater recoil and a lower projectile speed.

The Autogun has practically no advantages that make it more worthwhile overall over the Lasgun, and its biggest weakness makes it a joke to even try and outfit a Regiment with.

Er ... where is the news & rumour thread?

Hey, guys, how about you start up a thread in 40k background to debate lasers versus solid shots and keep it out of this thread?

How it hasn't been shut down by now...

 Kroothawk wrote:
Er ... where is the news & rumour thread?

Guard news and rumors are off-topic in this thread about IG logistics and the benefits of energy vs kinetic weapons.

Please do the solid ammo v. lasers thing in the 40k Background sub-forum. As to this IG rumor thing, we'll pick it back up when there are more rumors, thanks.