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Katherine, what's your opinion on the image I linked above? Is GW teasing a new Imagifier?

That image seems to be very plain. it doesn't look like much detail at all unless it's really small. The current box of bones is way better.

 Melissia wrote:
Katherine, what's your opinion on the image I linked above? Is GW teasing a new Imagifier?

Perhaps. It could well be, but it could be more hot-pocket marine crap. I wouldn't put it past GW to just keep kicking the ball down the road.

He didn't have anything inside the Landraiders or the Razorbacks?

phydaux wrote:
He didn't have anything inside the Landraiders or the Razorbacks?

No. Nothing inside.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

phydaux wrote:
He didn't have anything inside the Landraiders or the Razorbacks?

No. Nothing inside.

That's mystifying. Was he playtesting some kind of proof of concept army list?

phydaux wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

phydaux wrote:
He didn't have anything inside the Landraiders or the Razorbacks?

No. Nothing inside.

That's mystifying. Was he playtesting some kind of proof of concept army list?

No. I am lead to believe he had been winning games with that list, because the saturation of armor was just too great for other armies to deal with, and the Land Raiders offer a lot of firepower.

 Melissia wrote:


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/19/rumour-engine-july-19th-2017/

Does that look like an Imagifier to you guys?

It does. But I don't want to get my hopes up.

It also looks extremely similar to the thing the priest-looking dude on page 27 of the new rulebook has on his back. I hate to say it, but I'm guessing GW would do plastic Priests before Sisters.

And really, it's probably some Marine thing anyway.

Something I was just thinking about - does anyone else think that the Canoness should help with Acts of Faith in some way? It seems odd that (unless I'm mistaken) they're supposed to be among the most faithful units and yet don't allow for extra Acts of Faith or any such.

If nothing else, I think they should at least be able to give themselves a free Act of Faith each turn.

Taikishi wrote:
Since a foot slogger was brought up, this is a list I spit balled together earlier today based on someone else's idea of 100+ Battle Sisters, Imagifiers and Dialogus. And, no, I don't think the Dialogus does enough to warrant its points but, again, this is someone else's idea made real.

Comes out to exactly 2000 points.

Spoiler:

HQ
Canoness w/ Power axe & BP
Canoness w/ Eviscerator & BP
Celestine w/ 2 Geminae
Troops
15 Battle Sisters w/ 3 Storm Bolters
15 Battle Sisters w/ 3 Storm Bolters
15 Battle Sisters w/ 3 Storm Bolters
15 Battle Sisters w/ 3 Storm Bolters
15 Battle Sisters w/ 3 Storm Bolters
Elites
Dialogus
Dialogus
Imagifier
Imagifier
Imagifier
Fast Attack
5 Dominions w/ 4 Meltaguns, 1 Combi-plasma
5 Dominions w/ 4 Meltaguns, 1 Combi-plasma
5 Seraphim w/ 4 Inferno Pistols, Power sword
Heavy Support
5 Retributors w/ 3 Heavy Bolters
5 Retributors w/ 3 Heavy Bolters
5 Retributors w/ 3 Heavy Bolters
Dedicated Transport
Sororitas Repressor
Sororitas Repressor

Doubt this is very good, but I'm sure it'll look impressive on the table!

Edit: Just noticed that Battle Scribe didn't flag this as a Troops choice short of being a Brigade so points would have to be shuffled somehow to get another BSS.

That looks quite fun, though I think I'd want more than Storm Bolters on the regular sisters.

If you get a game with it, could you let us know how it does?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

No. I am lead to believe he had been winning games with that list, because the saturation of armor was just too great for other armies to deal with, and the Land Raiders offer a lot of firepower.

Yeah, I keep running into stuff like this. People seem to have had some very different impressions of the balance of 8th such that I'm sometimes seeing lists that are just 100% kitted out to kill tanks, with more lascannons than bolters, and some that maybe have 2 anti-tank guns. And then a lot of people seem to have not really grokked just how vulnerable stuff like shooty dreads and Land Raiders are to getting tied up in CC -- there are lots of "5 vehicles surrounding a buff HQ" lists, often with vehicles within 2" of each other. I've had people be surprised when I charge a Wave Serpent or a Repressor or a Vulture at their tanks to shut them up for a turn.

phydaux wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Someone already did earlier in this thread, actually. A bit too lazy to look for it atm tho.



As for the other questions...

Flamer does d6 auto-hits. Not auto-wounds. You roll d6 to calculate number of automatic hits, then calculate to-wound as normal, then armor saves as normal for each wound that caused damage.

Meltagun rolls to-hit as normal, then to-wound as normal, then if it successfully wounds, it does 1d6 damage, or 2d6 take the highest if at half range.

Thanks Mel. For the Melta, if 1 Wound MEQ gets hit then I don't really need to roll the D6. But if it were a Character with more than one wound then I would, right?

Just juggling loadouts for BSSs & Doms.

* Weapons that deal 1 damage (like bolters) will never overkill a target because they'll either leave it with wounds remaining or strip the model of its last wound then move to the next.

* Weapons that more than 1 damage, or deal random damage, and don't deal mortal wounds work like this:
1. Deal damage to model (opponent's choice but must damage wounded models first). Roll damage if needed.
2. Did damage kill model?
--Yes: Repeat step 1. Excess wounds (ex. Penitent engine dealing 3 wounds to a model with 2) are lost.
--No: Apply all wounds to target, repeat step 1.

* Weapons that deal mortal wounds are a combination of both. If a weapon deals 6 mortal wounds to a unit of six 1-wound models, kill them all. If it deals 5 mortal wounds to a unit of 2-wound models, kill two of them and a third has 1 wound remaining.

EXCEPTION

If a model has the ability to ignore damage, multi-wound weapons need to roll their damage regardless of how many wounds the model has (see Iron Hands Chapter Tactic) because the model could theoretically shrug off every wound from that weapon.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for SB vs Flamer vs Melta, here's the expected averages vs MEQ, T5-7 MEQ, and a T8 MEQ (like an Exorcist, but without the 6++) -- all of which are using Dominon squads since you can spam 5 of each of these in the unit:


vs MEQ



vs T5-7 MEQ


vs T8 MEQ

And that's why people like SBs on battle sister squads now. Because you can usually get two rounds of shooting off with them while only getting one off with flamers. Meltas are what you stick on dominions, where their numbers results in a lot more wounds than otherwise on hard to kill targets. I mean you can put flamers on them. And it'll work. But it's kinda expensive pointswise.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

No. I am lead to believe he had been winning games with that list, because the saturation of armor was just too great for other armies to deal with, and the Land Raiders offer a lot of firepower.

Yeah, I keep running into stuff like this. People seem to have had some very different impressions of the balance of 8th such that I'm sometimes seeing lists that are just 100% kitted out to kill tanks, with more lascannons than bolters, and some that maybe have 2 anti-tank guns. And then a lot of people seem to have not really grokked just how vulnerable stuff like shooty dreads and Land Raiders are to getting tied up in CC -- there are lots of "5 vehicles surrounding a buff HQ" lists, often with vehicles within 2" of each other. I've had people be surprised when I charge a Wave Serpent or a Repressor or a Vulture at their tanks to shut them up for a turn.

I've been seeing that too, and I run that with my Imperial Guard [with infantry screening]. Vehicles are just really strong.

The thing with charging a vehicle is, if your don't have heavy antitank melee available, or inferno pistols, you're not going to be going far. And, you can get it out of melee with a good countercharge unit floating around nearby.

In addition, a token infantry force can adequately delay the enemy for the vehicles to fall back an get off a third or fourth salvo.

vipoid wrote:Something I was just thinking about - does anyone else think that the Canoness should help with Acts of Faith in some way? It seems odd that (unless I'm mistaken) they're supposed to be among the most faithful units and yet don't allow for extra Acts of Faith or any such.

If nothing else, I think they should at least be able to give themselves a free Act of Faith each turn.

It would be nice, and it would make sense, but she would need to be more expensive. The Imagifier is way too expensive right now, though.

 Melissia wrote:
Any multi-wound model you would. Terminators, characters, vehicles, etc.

Unrelated:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/19/rumour-engine-july-19th-2017/

Does that look like an Imagifier to you guys?

It certainly fits the description in the fluff, "bones of a saint" and all that. By the level of detail, it's small, like a banner pole topper or a backpack-mounted icon. It would be a super fluffy bit for an Imagifier or a not-so-fluffy bit for plenty of others: Priests, Inquisitors, Chaplains, etc. I'm too fatigued to hope, frankly, that it's for us. I'll just be shocked and pleased when it is or shrug and sigh when it isn't.

It is worth noting that a number of primaris marines already released have taken to wearing these holy artifacts as cod pieces. So I imagine it'll be something along those lines.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
It is worth noting that a number of primaris marines already released have taken to wearing these holy artifacts as cod pieces. So I imagine it'll be something along those lines.

Umm. Not sure if serious...

They're relics hanging from their belts...

 pretre wrote:

Umm. Not sure if serious...

They're relics hanging from their belts...

Not serious.

But my point is it's a regularly recurring motif with the primaris marines. And unlikely in the extreme to be for anyone else.

That piece is on top of something, not embedded in something.

 Melissia wrote:
That piece is on top of something, not embedded in something.

The 'flatness' of the bones have also been commented on. Some have theorized its part of a terrain piece or something less detailed, but I think it looks that way because they're supposed to not be real bones at all.

I could see it as being a part of a chaplain's backpack or the top piece of a banner; an abstract representation of a reliquary to represent a badge of office and not an actual reliquary of holy significance.

In that regard, I think it's an Astartes piece because an actual member of the Ministorum would use real ones everywhere, with only the most authentic Saint's bones.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That piece is on top of something, not embedded in something.

The 'flatness' of the bones have also been commented on. Some have theorized its part of a terrain piece or something less detailed, but I think it looks that way because they're supposed to not be real bones at all.

I could see it as being a part of a chaplain's backpack or the top piece of a banner; an abstract representation of a reliquary to represent a badge of office and not an actual reliquary of holy significance.

In that regard, I think it's an Astartes piece because an actual member of the Ministorum would use real ones everywhere, with only the most authentic Saint's bones.

This.

I agree with the "flatness" of it. I'd run with the "Terrain Objective" a lot more than a new model piece. I've not yet seen a Primaris model that is mod-able yet either, they are all varying levels of push-fit.
This is good and bad. Good because they can get so much more detail, poses and things like Sisters with their flowing robes/hair / doves can be done.
Bad because I loved the 7th ed Marine kits, with 25 arm options, 56 head variants and 154 shoulder pads (joke numbers).

With the above in mind, this is not at the "push-fit level" of detail. Way too flat for that. Have you got the new Celestine model? those Doves though xD


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Sad thing is, I'm pretty sure this was actually an unintended result.

I agree. I don't think that the design team intentionally buffs/nerfs units for sales reasons.

I have a feeling that this could change.

I understand what you said about "it can't be proven" because of previous examples. But seeing at how flexible they are becoming (Yearly "general's Handbook"?), they could easily include this tactic for their marketing, buffing and nerfing as years go by to influence sales.

One would have to look at current sales/buffs and the pricing of things in 8th edition. i.e. "Are the Primarines good?", Inceptors?, Hellblasters?, the new units coming out (Chaplain/apothecary/dread). If they are rather buffed, then come down in skill/up in points by the end of the year, that'll be our new examples.

Feel like this force is lacking something, but an idea I've been working on today. Don't really like running the BSS, but would rather have the extra CPs for a Battalion and still have the Outrider detachment.

[109 PL, 1999pts]
Battalion Detachment +3CP
HQ
* Canoness w/ bolt pistol, eviscerator
* Celestine, 2x Geminae Superia

Troops
* 5 Battle Sisters w/ 3 storm bolters, chainsword
* 5 Battle Sisters w/ 3 storm bolters, chainsword
* 5 Battle Sisters w/ 3 storm bolters, chainsword
* 5 Battle Sisters w/ 3 storm bolters, chainsword

Elites
* Imagifier

Dedicated Transport
* Immolator w/ Immolation flamer, storm bolter
* Immolator w/ Immolation flamer, storm bolter
* Immolator w/ Immolation flamer, storm bolter
* Immolator w/ Immolation flamer, storm bolter


Outrider Detachment +1CP
HQ
* Canoness w/ bolt pistol, eviscerator

Elites
* 4 "Purgation Celestian Bikers" (Space Marine Company Veterans, no CT) on Bikes w/ 3 flamers, 4 combi-flamers, chainsword

Fast Attack
* 5 Dominions w/ 3 meltaguns, chainsword
* 5 Dominions w/ 3 meltaguns, chainsword
* 5 Seraphim w/ 4 inferno pistols, power sword

Heavy Support
* Exorcist
* Exorcist

Dedicated Transport
* Sororitas Repressor w/ extra heavy flamer


Doms deploy in Repressor, Seraphim in deep strike, BSS + characters in Immolators

Why Imagifer? It seems like a waste if it's driving around. And why flamers on the bikers? dropping the imagifer could get you two more Meltas for the Doms.

And why both Doms in one basket? It seems like dropping a Immo and taking another Repressor seems like a better idea.

Also, you only need 3 BSS for Bat, right? Swap one out for Doms with SB.

A lot of it was trying to get points for the bikes, flamers or not. I originally had a second Repressor, both Minion squads had a full 5 meltaguns, didn't have the extra BSS, and was struggling to find points/fit points. It was also running two 3-man regular bike squads, but I really just didn't like that idea in the long run -- the squad felt too fragile.

Going back to the original setup, or even making the changes you suggest, I feel like the list is missing something but I can't put my finger on it.

Well, a counter-charge would be nice to have.

That's what I've been thinking it's missing, but I was struggling to find points for PEs or Terminators and didn't like any of the assault squad alternatives.

Also not sold that a single squad of 2 PEs is enough of a counter-charge given the mobility of the rest of the army. It's also missing bubble wrap, but I was also looking at a force in case I decide to go to NOVA expecting Ravenspam (though IIRC, Nova isn't permitting FW so no Repressors).

Hmmm.....

Edit: Double checked. FW is legal, though it's also right after GenCon and I'm not sure I'm going to have the money after that x.x Still want to work on this list, though, as much as a TAC as for lulz.

9 arcos and a priest in a rhino. Best counter-charge ever.
It can also straight-up murder any blob of gants/boyz/guards/brimstones.

I hadn't really looked at Arcos but at a second glance they do seem pretty great.

What I hadn't realised is that the priest will give each one an extra D3 attacks! Thats 3xD3 S5 attacks each that reroll to hit in the first round of combat, on a 2W model with a 5++ for only 15pts.

Between these and the Storm Bolters. this is truly the buckets o' dice edition.

Do war hymns stack, and do they buff the priest himself?

They buff the priest himself, since he is an Adeptus Ministorum unit within 6" of himself. I don't think they stack.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

phydaux wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

phydaux wrote:
He didn't have anything inside the Landraiders or the Razorbacks?

No. Nothing inside.

That's mystifying. Was he playtesting some kind of proof of concept army list?

No. I am lead to believe he had been winning games with that list, because the saturation of armor was just too great for other armies to deal with, and the Land Raiders offer a lot of firepower.

So was is that your girls & vehicles just had too much Melta for him? No one does Melta like the Sisters.

That, and Big C seemed to do really well. I see a HUGE nerf coming to her, and that RIGHT quick.