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Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






I disagree on mutate
Interrogation is often the easier choice, especially with the characther+bodyguard shenanigans so many armies seem to like.

You cant mutate if you cant even touch the objective, and that will often happen if the enemy has any semblance of understanding, and the increasing difficulty makes it not guaranteed at all in the later casts.

A backline seeker after shadows infernal master can do his thing while still harvesting points on interrogations practically unchallenged, and the only counterplay is to hide all characthers-something most armies really cant afford.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BoomWolf wrote:
I disagree on mutate
Interrogation is often the easier choice, especially with the characther+bodyguard shenanigans so many armies seem to like.

You cant mutate if you cant even touch the objective, and that will often happen if the enemy has any semblance of understanding, and the increasing difficulty makes it not guaranteed at all in the later casts.

A backline seeker after shadows infernal master can do his thing while still harvesting points on interrogations practically unchallenged, and the only counterplay is to hide all characthers-something most armies really cant afford.


Well, he can keep them well back on turn 1 and 2, and then throw them all in on turn 3. If they all die turn 4, you then only get two turns of mental interrogate. It would feel bad to purposely keep an enemy character alive just so that he can be mental interrogated. I just feel that its even easier to guard against mental interrogation than mutate landscape.

Granted opponent can prevent us from touching the objective, but that is in practise harder than he thinks because we can temporal surge our rubric marines onto the objective. For an opponent to prevent us from mutating a point, he literally needs to cover the entire circle radius 3 inches around the objective with his models. That is not an easy thing to do. You need a pretty large number of models to be able to do that.

Mutate is relatively easy points on a 6 objective map, and there are quite a few of those. Should be able to get 3 or 4 mutates off pretty easily. Its that last mutate on turn 5 that might be a big challenging. But like I said, you can just fly+advance suicide your enlightened shaman over to do that last mutate on round 5.

Now if its a 5 objective map with one objective in the middle, then warp ritual would obviously be a better choice compared to Mutate Landscape. So its map dependent. But I like that on most maps, mutate/warp ritual is close to an auto pick for us.
   
Made in es
Gangly Grot Rebel




problem with mutate is getting too close, this army has 0 survival capabilities if they are charged

I see TS gameplay more like AdMech. To the last, stranglehold and banners, 24" positioning and just screening

Orks 5000p 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Kebabcito wrote:
problem with mutate is getting too close, this army has 0 survival capabilities if they are charged

I see TS gameplay more like AdMech. To the last, stranglehold and banners, 24" positioning and just screening


I don't know about that ( yet ).

10 S4 Wyches do 5 wounds to Rubrics. You would trigger -1D vs Incubi, which means they'd probably use the first profile for 6 damage total.

The biggest problem will be characters, but aside from Drazhar it's pretty rare to get hit with better than D2.

An Adrenalite, Triptych Succubus will at most do 10 wounds with -1D on. Obviously -1D can't be everywhere so getting hit with everything from DE can be disastrous, but that's true no matter who you are.

TL;DR - people are sleeping on D3 in melee and we can make it really hard to go through all those power armor/invuln wounds.

Also, we have the ability to smite ourselves out of combat.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/27 16:40:01


   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





 Daedalus81 wrote:

10 S4 Wyches do 5 wounds to Rubrics. You would trigger -1D vs Incubi, which means they'd probably use the first profile for 6 damage total.

The biggest problem will be characters, but aside from Drazhar it's pretty rare to get hit with better than D2.

An Adrenalite, Triptych Succubus will at most do 10 wounds with -1D on. Obviously -1D can't be everywhere so getting hit with everything from DE can be disastrous, but that's true no matter who you are.


How do rubrics get -1D in the fight phase?


 
   
Made in pt
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




They don’t!

Unless it’s a Helbrute...
   
Made in ca
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





The Frozen North

 Mushkilla wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:

10 S4 Wyches do 5 wounds to Rubrics. You would trigger -1D vs Incubi, which means they'd probably use the first profile for 6 damage total.

The biggest problem will be characters, but aside from Drazhar it's pretty rare to get hit with better than D2.

An Adrenalite, Triptych Succubus will at most do 10 wounds with -1D on. Obviously -1D can't be everywhere so getting hit with everything from DE can be disastrous, but that's true no matter who you are.


How do rubrics get -1D in the fight phase?

You cheat.

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Rubric marines are durable but they will still die to enough shooting or just close combat. But you have to remove every model because they are obsec. And then we can just move on another unit of rubrics and smite+shoot off your obsec on that point.

Its a valid strategy especially if you have enough rubrics in your army. Just keep on throwing more obsec rubrics onto a point. What ever is obsec on that point should die to smites and shooting, and whatever is too hardy to be killed by shooting plus smites are not likely to be obsec.

If that point is too strongly held for that strategy (maybe he has his whole army on it), then do that to another enemy held objective. Its unlikely your opponent can have so much stuff on all of his held points. Rubrics can move 12 inches with temporal surge, 15 inches out of a Rhino, and more if they move advance.

We just need to outnumber enemy obsec to get that point. Say he has 5 intercessors on a back point. If you can temporal surge+move advance your rubrics onto that point. One doombolt will remove enough models there so that you now outnumber him and you have obsec too.

Having said that, melee is a weakness to our army, its true. The one thing that would almost certainly kill us would be if our opponent can get multiple charges into our characters and then kill them. Once we lose our key characters, we lose a lot of our power in our army because our psychic phase now becomes so much weaker. This is kind of why I still favor having a big bloc of occults to protect our key characters.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 MinMax wrote:

You cheat.


No, I don't actually. Nor do you understand what that word means. I just made a mental error while typing up a post.

Point stands on 1D melee.

Is anyone else having trouble with BS and sorcerous arcana? It's telling only one use for strike force.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/29 03:58:22


   
Made in ca
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





The Frozen North

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 MinMax wrote:

You cheat.


No, I don't actually. Nor do you understand what that word means. I just made a mental error while typing up a post.

Point stands on 1D melee.

Is anyone else having trouble with BS and sorcerous arcana? It's telling only one use for strike force.

I believe you apply the Sorcerous Arcana stratagem once, and then in its options select "2 additional relics".

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 MinMax wrote:

I believe you apply the Sorcerous Arcana stratagem once, and then in its options select "2 additional relics".


Awesome, thanks!

   
Made in us
Raging Ravener





Trying to figure out the math on imbued incantation and prism of echos.

IMBUED MANIFESTATION
4 Cabal Points
Like flame leaping along a trail of spilled promethium, the Thousand Sons’ magicks feed upon the latent energies clouding the air and race hungrily away through them towards the foe.

Use this Cabbalistic Ritual when a psychic power is successfully manifested by a unit from your army. Add 6" to the range of that psychic power’s effects (if that psychic power specifies multiple ranges, e.g. Astral Blast, add 6" to the first range specified in that psychic power).

THE PRISM OF ECHOES

This ancient crystal is said to have been recovered from amongst the despoiled ruins of Prospero. It resonates with the psychic death-agonies of all those who fell along with their world on its final day, so that even the gheists of the Rubricae are moved to vengeful fury by its presence.

Each time the bearer successfully manifests a Blessing psychic power, double the first range specified in that power’s effects

Let's say cult of duplicity teleport blessing has a range of 6", do we double that then add 6? Or do we add 6 then double? Based on maths on weapon x2 and + str bonus i am inclined to say that you only get 18 inches here. But given that this is a on cast layering effect can you layer it to add 6 then double?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Beaverton OR


Hey folks, quick question:

How do YOU kit your rhinos? Do you ever take the launcher? Combi-melta?

I'm tempted to invest in Rhinos... but I don't want them just to be "armored boxes". Can they work as fire-support?
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





I had a game against Tyranids last weekend. My list was Ahriman on disc, Exalted on disc, Infernal Master, 3 x 5 man SoT, 2 x Hellbrute with LC/ML, 1 unit of 5 man rubics with flamers, 1 unit of 5 man rubrics with bolters, 1 unit of 9 man rubircs with bolters, and a Leviathan. I won by 10+ points despite being tabled on turn 5, and down to just Ahriman and one squad on turn 4.

I stole the idea from that guy who won in Austraila and put temporal surge on two of the SoT that started on the board. Then deepstruck the third. I was scoring primary like crazy. I really like the 3 x 5 man SoT and the temporal surge really gets them moving. I took Time since I was using surge and it felt just a maneuverable as duplicity. 5 are more than enough to cause issues, and with 3 squads my opponent said he felt like there was just pressure on him on every front. And damage 1 is not hurting them, and with only 5 the -1d strat is only 1 CP which really helps their survivabilty. Also compared to Rubrics, the SoT can actually do some work in CC, so I feel that they are much better at moving up the field to take objectives. I think every list I build is going to include the 3 x SoT units.

Also I used the Scrolls with Firestorm form my Exalted. Man, that roll 3 then pick really makes a huge difference with getting the 9+ psychic roll. It is still a bit swing-y as one time I rolled one 5, and another four 6s (needing them) so you never really know what it will do, but with the malevolent charge and the scrolls it can be scary good at assassinating characters or support units.

I did not get to see what the Leviathan could do with the infernal master, as he got charged turn 1 by a flying hive tyrant (they have some crazy strat that lets them move again, so 32 inch move with that). For my next game I am dropping the Leviathan and putting in a Daemon Prince, some cultists (for the new detachment so I can take said Daemon Prince).

I hope some of this was helpful.
   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





dreadlybrew wrote:
Trying to figure out the math on imbued incantation and prism of echos.
Let's say cult of duplicity teleport blessing has a range of 6", do we double that then add 6? Or do we add 6 then double? Based on maths on weapon x2 and + str bonus i am inclined to say that you only get 18 inches here. But given that this is a on cast layering effect can you layer it to add 6 then double?


I play it as 18" but only because that's the most conservative of the two possibilities.

 xeen wrote:
...I stole the idea from that guy who won in Austraila and put temporal surge on two of the SoT that started on the board. Then deepstruck the third. I was scoring primary like crazy. I really like the 3 x 5 man SoT and the temporal surge really gets them moving. I took Time since I was using surge and it felt just a maneuverable as duplicity.


Thanks for sharing your experience!

I agree Temporal surge is super important. I used to run it on all my rubrics/occults. However, the limitation here is it's hard to cast needing a 7+ and its short range tends to mean it's in deny range. For such a pivotal power that's problematic. The solution that I've been enjoying is the following:

Exalted Sorcerer, disk, Dilettante - 160
Relic: Prism of Echoes and Athenaean Scroll
Powers: Temporal Surge, Pyric Flux (or whatever power you want)

The Prism means you can cast Temporal Surge at 12" or 18" (with the range ritual) and the Scroll means it's all but guaranteed to go off. This means you don't have to take temporal surge on all you units, it can be cast out of deny range and it goes off very reliably. If you run duplicity this sorcerer is great for casting sorcerous facade out of deny range too (as you can cast it at 12" or 18" rather than 6").

I've found firestorm very unreliable and swingy even with the scroll. Using the scroll on something so swingy feels like a waste to me.

Anyway, this particular exalted sorcerer set up as been an absolute MVP for me. He can combo really well with other exalted sorcerers as they no longer need to waste a cast on temporal surge. For example you can move Ahriman forward cast a bunch of witchfires and then use this sorcerer to temporal surge Ahriman back to safety (reliably and out of deny range). You can also cast it reliably and make it undeniable (if you can't be out of deny range) as you no longer need to use pact from beyond to guarantee that it goes off (meaning you can combo it with cabbalistic focus).

Hope that's useful.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/30 17:55:02



 
   
Made in us
Raging Ravener





Agreed. I tend to stick to the most conservative rules position on layering like that.

I think the buff exalted with prism and scrolls on a disk is my favorite use. The army is a mid board army so you can shuffle him around from rubric to rubric. And advancing isn't bad for them since it doesn't affect casting.

If you find yourself with breathing room you can even switch out one of his spells for a cp.
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

leerm02 wrote:

Hey folks, quick question:

How do YOU kit your rhinos? Do you ever take the launcher? Combi-melta?

I'm tempted to invest in Rhinos... but I don't want them just to be "armored boxes". Can they work as fire-support?


a just recently bought a chaos rhino for my tsons. not had a chance to actually paint and use it yet (life keeps getting in the way), but i will tell you of my experenice:

its kitted out with 2 combi bolters and a havoc launcher. my logic was basically a ghetto razorback, a IFV type vehicle with enough firepower to have some contribution to the firefight. I had to do a bit of bodging to make it all work.

the kit in the box only comes with one combi and the havoc launcher. i re-purposed a spare combi bolter form my termies, snipped the hand off it and just glued it straight onto the crew hatch, almost like a old-style rhino bolter. the other crew hatch has the rhino kit's marine manning a 2nd combi bolter, modded with spare rubic helmet and sholder pads to look more thousand sons. the base rhino kit comes with the rear roof with turret ring for the loyalist razorback, (the actual guns for it, i believe, are on a seperate sprue that is replaced with the chaos spikes sprue), so i stuck that on with the conventional rhino top hatch doors stuck underneath it to make a workable turret ring to stick the havoc launcher on. the whole thing works, but i had to aim everything off to one side as otherwise the launcher is shooting into the gunner.
Some images of my meagre efforts
Spoiler:








Game rules wise, the rhino i built is 90 points (less than 4 rubrics) and for that, you have a platform that is slightly more durable than 4 rubics (2 more wounds, T7 & same save), with equal or slightly better shooting (two combi bolters= 4 regular ones, all with -2AP, with the havoc on top), but doesnt have OPSEC or All is Dust. frankly, its got some potential as a backup for a flamer squad pushing up the board, or to camp on a rear objective and free up more expensive guys to get up the table.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





 Mushkilla wrote:
dreadlybrew wrote:
Trying to figure out the math on imbued incantation and prism of echos.
Let's say cult of duplicity teleport blessing has a range of 6", do we double that then add 6? Or do we add 6 then double? Based on maths on weapon x2 and + str bonus i am inclined to say that you only get 18 inches here. But given that this is a on cast layering effect can you layer it to add 6 then double?


I play it as 18" but only because that's the most conservative of the two possibilities.

 xeen wrote:
...I stole the idea from that guy who won in Austraila and put temporal surge on two of the SoT that started on the board. Then deepstruck the third. I was scoring primary like crazy. I really like the 3 x 5 man SoT and the temporal surge really gets them moving. I took Time since I was using surge and it felt just a maneuverable as duplicity.


Thanks for sharing your experience!

I agree Temporal surge is super important. I used to run it on all my rubrics/occults. However, the limitation here is it's hard to cast needing a 7+ and its short range tends to mean it's in deny range. For such a pivotal power that's problematic. The solution that I've been enjoying is the following:

Exalted Sorcerer, disk, Dilettante - 160
Relic: Prism of Echoes and Athenaean Scroll
Powers: Temporal Surge, Pyric Flux (or whatever power you want)

The Prism means you can cast Temporal Surge at 12" or 18" (with the range ritual) and the Scroll means it's all but guaranteed to go off. This means you don't have to take temporal surge on all you units, it can be cast out of deny range and it goes off very reliably. If you run duplicity this sorcerer is great for casting sorcerous facade out of deny range too (as you can cast it at 12" or 18" rather than 6").

I've found firestorm very unreliable and swingy even with the scroll. Using the scroll on something so swingy feels like a waste to me.

Anyway, this particular exalted sorcerer set up as been an absolute MVP for me. He can combo really well with other exalted sorcerers as they no longer need to waste a cast on temporal surge. For example you can move Ahriman forward cast a bunch of witchfires and then use this sorcerer to temporal surge Ahriman back to safety (reliably and out of deny range). You can also cast it reliably and make it undeniable (if you can't be out of deny range) as you no longer need to use pact from beyond to guarantee that it goes off (meaning you can combo it with cabbalistic focus).

Hope that's useful.


That is a good idea. I am going to try that out with the scrolls and the prism for long range buffing


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Xerxes that is a sweet conversion for the Rhino

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/30 22:06:29


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Beaverton OR

Glorious conversion man! I was actually thinking of doing something similar (though with something a bit different for the bolters).

Let me know how it fares on the battlefield as I'm particularly uncertain about the havoc launcher...
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 xeen wrote:
I had a game against Tyranids last weekend. My list was Ahriman on disc, Exalted on disc, Infernal Master, 3 x 5 man SoT, 2 x Hellbrute with LC/ML, 1 unit of 5 man rubics with flamers, 1 unit of 5 man rubrics with bolters, 1 unit of 9 man rubircs with bolters, and a Leviathan. I won by 10+ points despite being tabled on turn 5, and down to just Ahriman and one squad on turn 4.

I stole the idea from that guy who won in Austraila and put temporal surge on two of the SoT that started on the board. Then deepstruck the third. I was scoring primary like crazy. I really like the 3 x 5 man SoT and the temporal surge really gets them moving. I took Time since I was using surge and it felt just a maneuverable as duplicity. 5 are more than enough to cause issues, and with 3 squads my opponent said he felt like there was just pressure on him on every front. And damage 1 is not hurting them, and with only 5 the -1d strat is only 1 CP which really helps their survivabilty. Also compared to Rubrics, the SoT can actually do some work in CC, so I feel that they are much better at moving up the field to take objectives. I think every list I build is going to include the 3 x SoT units.

Also I used the Scrolls with Firestorm form my Exalted. Man, that roll 3 then pick really makes a huge difference with getting the 9+ psychic roll. It is still a bit swing-y as one time I rolled one 5, and another four 6s (needing them) so you never really know what it will do, but with the malevolent charge and the scrolls it can be scary good at assassinating characters or support units.

I did not get to see what the Leviathan could do with the infernal master, as he got charged turn 1 by a flying hive tyrant (they have some crazy strat that lets them move again, so 32 inch move with that). For my next game I am dropping the Leviathan and putting in a Daemon Prince, some cultists (for the new detachment so I can take said Daemon Prince).

I hope some of this was helpful.


Thanks for sharing! I find that Temporal Surge is one of our most important psychic that we will use. So, having it cast either by scrolls or by Ahriman (who gets to reroll) is very important. You can usually live with any other psychic not going off, but temporal surge has to go off. It makes a huge difference. Sorcerous Facade is another important one, but that is WC 8 so you will usually cast it using cabal points to autocast anyway and you only have that if you are taking cult of duplicity anyway.
   
Made in us
Raging Ravener





Ok time for another question.

Taking a demon prince with conniving plate.

37 points for wings, or 1 cp for aetherstride for +3 inches of movement like fly with advance and charge and fall back and charge.

37 points gets me ardent automa qnd rites of coalesnec on my 10 man SOT bricks
   
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Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

dreadlybrew wrote:
Ok time for another question.

Taking a demon prince with conniving plate.

37 points for wings, or 1 cp for aetherstride for +3 inches of movement like fly with advance and charge and fall back and charge.

37 points gets me ardent automa qnd rites of coalesnec on my 10 man SOT bricks

I prefer the aetherstride over wings.

Keep 'em cheaper so that it doesn't mess up Last Man Standing if that's a possible secondary, and DPs are a risk of dying as you're aggressive with that unit whenever possible.

6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in us
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp






Dimmamar

I have been largely unimpressed with my DP. I used to run 4 from two codices, and then dropped to 3 for a while after GW decided that differently named units count as the same unit (except for Loyalists, they can have nearly unlimited Lts smh).
Perhaps I ran him into a bad unit, but 5 attacks just doesn't feel the same as 8 did....

LVO 2017 - Best GK Player

The Grimdark Future 8500 1500 4500 2000 2500

"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
"By time I mean that which is indicated by some changing motion." City of God, Book XII Ch 16 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





With the DP, if you take aether you can’t take -1d. I would only do that if the extra points get you something that will really make a difference.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I'm pondering an "anti-fighter" build - Terminator Sorcerer, Battle Psyker, Chatterfowl, and Aetherstride with Swelled and Glamour.

Take a Succubus and give it effectively -2 to -4 to hit in total. Works well on knights, too.


   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm pondering an "anti-fighter" build - Terminator Sorcerer, Battle Psyker, Chatterfowl, and Aetherstride with Swelled and Glamour.

Take a Succubus and give it effectively -2 to -4 to hit in total. Works well on knights, too.



Nice terminator sorcerer build. Alas chatterfowl wont work on a knight (it can only target infantry)..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/03 20:55:25



 
   
Made in us
Raging Ravener





With battle psyker you should just kill the succubus with a doombolt and smite. I use battle psyker with Astral blast. With the qdded d3 mortal wounds you can kill 2 units.
   
Made in pt
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




 Mushkilla wrote:
Nice terminator sorcerer build. Alas chatterfowl wont work on a knight (it can only target infantry)..

Was this FAQ’d? It can only be equipped to an Infantry model, but otherwise I don’t see other restrictions.
   
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Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





Yoyoyo wrote:
 Mushkilla wrote:
Nice terminator sorcerer build. Alas chatterfowl wont work on a knight (it can only target infantry)..

Was this FAQ’d? It can only be equipped to an Infantry model, but otherwise I don’t see other restrictions.


No, ignore me. I mixed up the chatterfowl with the sorthis' mirror which only works on infantry, the chatterfowl can target anything but can only be taken by infantry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/03 20:55:54



 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





dreadlybrew wrote:
With battle psyker you should just kill the succubus with a doombolt and smite. I use battle psyker with Astral blast. With the qdded d3 mortal wounds you can kill 2 units.


Not always feasible. The nice thing about Chattefowl is that it is every fight phase so popping out of a boat still lets me guard a unit with intervene.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Has anyone pondered empyric guidance on multi meltas?

A contemptor with two of them could score some gnarly damage if it gets it within half range.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/04 04:40:15


   
 
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