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 alextroy wrote:
I will join you in praying to the Emperor that Acts of Faith are the Faction Ability of Adepta Sororitas. It can't be too hard to trim that rule down to fit on the two page spread with the rest of the detachment rules.

There's a good chance that on release there won't be any miracle mechanics. I'd be shocked if I had any 'Cabal' rules.


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 Totalwar1402 wrote:

The damage profiles seem fairly similar. This means they haven’t really changed the way damage works. That they still want to make the game exciting and your decisions impactful. Which means one action means shovelling enemy units off the table to speed up the game.

Sisters are disproportionally impacted because the armour save is a degrading profile whilst toughness and wounds aren’t. Plus the game is scaled to kill marines. If somebody thinks it’s reasonable for an assault cannon to kill two marines well that’s half a Sisters squad. Points has never been balanced because there’s a refusal to make marines too high in points and an assumption Sisters are better than Guardsmen applying 3rd edition logic. It doesn’t account for bolters not being able to punch through low armour saves or that armour can be degraded or that most units damage output can remove a T3 squad.

Plus it’s an army built around special rules and they’re cutting a lot of them. They’re reliant on them because they can’t alter the profile since they’re humans. Can’t change the weapons as they’re standard Imperial guns and that means the only way to get more damage is to throw various army and special rules at them. A system focused on the basic unit profile, especially if things like Orks being T5 stay or they up Tyranids to compensate that’s going to put them in a bad place.

Previously that AssCan would kill 1.7 Sisters and now it kills 1.1 or a 35% reduction.

If your Sisters squad of 10 took 5 casualties in 9th you would fail your morale 50% of the time, lose a model, and lose 1-2 more after that. Now you will test and the unit will operate worse, but you won't lose models. Since marines are generally more durable is was difficult to get them to test and lose models to morale. Hell, if you lose 4 models in 9th you'd test with a good chance of additional casualties, but now you won't.

 Kanluwen wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
"A Grot should be able to go against Mortarion in some form because the Grot is the leader of the Grot army" is such a weird take on the game.

And on the flipside of that, it's such a weird take on the game to feel that something should be entirely unable to do something because of a bad match-up.

That's where we used to be. Nobody's asking for Mabari to be able to one-shot Mortarion or whatever goofy argument you're putting forward here to strawman against.

Yeah, or whatever goofy argument I'm putting forward to strawman against.

It seems you are unfamiliar with the definition of the word you accuse others to do, but don't let that get into your way of trying to one up others.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Then we need more categories for characters to fulfill and more diverse loadouts.

It's daft that people think Guard Commanders should just explode when engaged in combat, especially considering they insist on giving them "beatstick" loadouts or piddly peashooters like a boltgun on a T3 platform. Tau at least get the ability to load up on more specialized weapons on their Battlesuited Commanders.

Ah yes 50 pts hq should obviously be able to go toe to toe in cc vs 400pts hq or he's worthless.

People sure love today to show how bad players they are to need such op rules.

Breton wrote:


I'm saying the "top dog" of each army should (usually) be able to go toe to toe in some form with the "top dog" of any other army.

No you're not though, because if you were, you'd be saying that Primarchs can solo a GD (for Chapters that have them) or Chapter Masters (for chapters that don't have a Primarch). And if you were arguing that, you'd be getting less pushback.

The issue is that Captains are not actually the top dogs of a Chapter. They're close, but they aren't.

For what it's worth, I think it should be POSSIBLE for a Captain to solo a GD, but rare- like an any given Sunday kinda deal. I also think that when it happens, the Captain should walk away with lasting injuries. I know that if one of my Captains soloed a GD, I'd auto fail the recovery test and take a battle scar or even two, and I'd probably swap my Captain model out for one with a trophy and perhaps a shiny new bionic limb... Cuz that's how a narrative campaign player does it.

 vipoid wrote:
It seems a lot of HQs currently suffer from only being able to pick very lacklustre ranged weapons.

They want HQ's engaged in glorious heroic charges, leading from the front, and so on. This is why there are so many relic HTH weapons that people take, and so many relic pistols that everyone completely ignores.

I've always thought that expanding ranged options for characters was a no brainer. Why not a Terminator Captain with an Assault Cannon? A Cyclone? Is there a reason my Marine Captain can't have a heavy weapon? I've long wondered if the Captain of the 9th Company - the shootiest Company in a Marine Chapter! - could have some cool Combi-heavy bolter/lascannon thing.

Tau and Guard have ranged options, but it seems odd that basically everyone else is HTH all the time ('cept 'Nids who can do both for some reason).

tneva82 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Then we need more categories for characters to fulfill and more diverse loadouts.

It's daft that people think Guard Commanders should just explode when engaged in combat, especially considering they insist on giving them "beatstick" loadouts or piddly peashooters like a boltgun on a T3 platform. Tau at least get the ability to load up on more specialized weapons on their Battlesuited Commanders.

Ah yes 50 pts hq should obviously be able to go toe to toe in cc vs 400pts hq or he's worthless.

Ah yes HQ should obviously just be able to be shut out of entire phases of the game or they're useful.

Read. Better. I said that they shouldn't just explode when engaged in combat. ESPECIALLY because they get a beatstick loadout. It takes you going into the "One Per Detachment"(Commandants) characters to get Krieg(Marshal), Cadian(Castellan) players a genuine, non-Pistol ranged weapon on an HQ choice while Catachans have two on nameds(Harker with his Heavy Bolter and Straken with his Shotgun).

For whatever stupid reason though, the generic Command Squad gets the option as base.

People sure love today to show how bad players they are to need such op rules.

People sure love today to show how bad they are at reading comprehension or not arguing against strawmen they've concocted.

You are so bad at making arguments...

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Previously that AssCan would kill 1.7 Sisters and now it kills 1.1 or a 35% reduction.

Yeah I really don't see how anyone can look at the rules we've seen so far and not see the reduction in lethality.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You are so bad at making arguments...

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Previously that AssCan would kill 1.7 Sisters and now it kills 1.1 or a 35% reduction.

Yeah I really don't see how anyone can look at the rules we've seen so far and not see the reduction in lethality.

I can see the reduction in lethality, and I know slightly more than two thirds of fifty percent of eff all about the modern game.

AP down across the board, damage down as well. That…..that reduces lethality, as everyone will be saving more often, and taking less wounds when the save is failed.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I will join you in praying to the Emperor that Acts of Faith are the Faction Ability of Adepta Sororitas. It can't be too hard to trim that rule down to fit on the two page spread with the rest of the detachment rules.

There's a good chance that on release there won't be any miracle mechanics. I'd be shocked if I had any 'Cabal' rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

The damage profiles seem fairly similar. This means they haven’t really changed the way damage works. That they still want to make the game exciting and your decisions impactful. Which means one action means shovelling enemy units off the table to speed up the game.

Sisters are disproportionally impacted because the armour save is a degrading profile whilst toughness and wounds aren’t. Plus the game is scaled to kill marines. If somebody thinks it’s reasonable for an assault cannon to kill two marines well that’s half a Sisters squad. Points has never been balanced because there’s a refusal to make marines too high in points and an assumption Sisters are better than Guardsmen applying 3rd edition logic. It doesn’t account for bolters not being able to punch through low armour saves or that armour can be degraded or that most units damage output can remove a T3 squad.

Plus it’s an army built around special rules and they’re cutting a lot of them. They’re reliant on them because they can’t alter the profile since they’re humans. Can’t change the weapons as they’re standard Imperial guns and that means the only way to get more damage is to throw various army and special rules at them. A system focused on the basic unit profile, especially if things like Orks being T5 stay or they up Tyranids to compensate that’s going to put them in a bad place.

Previously that AssCan would kill 1.7 Sisters and now it kills 1.1 or a 35% reduction.

If your Sisters squad of 10 took 5 casualties in 9th you would fail your morale 50% of the time, lose a model, and lose 1-2 more after that. Now you will test and the unit will operate worse, but you won't lose models. Since marines are generally more durable is was difficult to get them to test and lose models to morale. Hell, if you lose 4 models in 9th you'd test with a good chance of additional casualties, but now you won't.

As a sisters player, I'm not hugely worried about it. It's a consideration armies like marines don't really need to keep in mind that we do, but we've been good as T3 models plenty of times before.

I especially enjoy that normally what they give us to balance it out is just a metric fethton of damage. Doesn't matter if your gun kill 4 sisters vs 1 marine, if that one remaining sister has the DPS to kill the other 4 marines, lol.


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PenitentJake wrote:

Breton wrote:


I'm saying the "top dog" of each army should (usually) be able to go toe to toe in some form with the "top dog" of any other army.

No you're not though, because if you were, you'd be saying that Primarchs can solo a GD (for Chapters that have them) or Chapter Masters (for chapters that don't have a Primarch). And if you were arguing that, you'd be getting less pushback.

The issue is that Captains are not actually the top dogs of a Chapter. They're close, but they aren't.

For what it's worth, I think it should be POSSIBLE for a Captain to solo a GD, but rare- like an any given Sunday kinda deal. I also think that when it happens, the Captain should walk away with lasting injuries. I know that if one of my Captains soloed a GD, I'd auto fail the recovery test and take a battle scar or even two, and I'd probably swap my Captain model out for one with a trophy and perhaps a shiny new bionic limb... Cuz that's how a narrative campaign player does it.

I had an SoB Canoness 1v1 a knight and win. That was fun.

Breton wrote:
I'm saying the "top dog" of each army should (usually) be able to go toe to toe in some form with the "top dog" of any other army.

Do you really think a 50pt Company Commander ought to be able to take on your Captain just because he's also an HQ choice?

Also I'm not sure why you seem to think everyone telling you 'a Captain soloing a Bloodthirster is stupid' is actually saying 'only my army deserves a capable centerpiece', particularly when most of the people saying this don't even play daemons.

You have relic dreadnoughts. Hovertanks. Some of the strongest infantry in the game. An incredible array of potent weapons and ideal delivery platforms for them. Models stronger than a Captain, including Chapter Masters and Primarchs. Perhaps you can find some way to be content with merely having the most varied capabilities and most options of any army in the game, rather than complaining that your basic HQ choice can't also solo any model from any other army as well.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
It seems a lot of HQs currently suffer from only being able to pick very lacklustre ranged weapons.

They want HQ's engaged in glorious heroic charges, leading from the front, and so on. This is why there are so many relic HTH weapons that people take, and so many relic pistols that everyone completely ignores.

Relic pistols get ignored because of opportunity cost. Other range weapons get used after all. Hell, the last list I played used the Dark Angels relic Storm Bolter with a Storm of Fire Captain.

If you had two tiers of relics where you got to use one of each, I'd argue that the pistols would get more use. After all, I don't think anyone would argue a Captain with Purgatorius and the Burning Blade is broken, or the Equis Pistol, Thunder Hammer, and Armor Indomitus is broken in any combo.

It simply requires more effort than GW is willing to put in.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Relic pistols get ignored because of opportunity cost.

I'd argue they get ignored due to lack of cost. If Relics cost points rather than one-size-fits-all command points (or 1 for free) then this would be less of an issue. Then the value of a Daemon Weapon or a Burning Blade or whatever wouldn't be "equal" to some dinky pistol you'll never use.

On that subject, I guess we can say goodbye to paid upgrades in 10th. So much for that mid-edition paradigm shift.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
It simply requires more effort than GW is willing to put in.

Or more expertise than they are capable.

For Guard at least, a relic that affects your actual units like ROLC is always going to be better than a relic power sword, points cost or no. Because the platform you're putting it on isn't worth it.

Marines, playing a Space Wolves successor, I find that the relics you take tend to be upgrades to the character. Points costs might work better there.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Relic pistols get ignored because of opportunity cost.

I'd argue they get ignored due to lack of cost. If Relics cost points rather than one-size-fits-all command points (or 1 for free) then this would be less of an issue. Then the value of a Daemon Weapon or a Burning Blade or whatever wouldn't be "equal" to some dinky pistol you'll never use.

On that subject, I guess we can say goodbye to paid upgrades in 10th. So much for that mid-edition paradigm shift.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
It simply requires more effort than GW is willing to put in.

Or more expertise than they are capable.

I don't think there's anything wrong with "free" Relics as long as there's different tiers. If Pistols and other lower Relics were on one and then bigger weapons and armors with better protection were on another, there's less worry of competition of slots. You're absolutely correct they're never going to be equal. However, nobody is gonna pay 5 points for the Purgatorius. HOWEVER if you can take it alongside maybe Teeth of Terra, maybe you'd forego Artificer Armor once in a while.

Free Relics and Warlord Traits also gives room for generic characters to compete vs named Characters but that's my view and an entirely different discussion.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
For Guard at least, a relic that affects your actual units like ROLC is always going to be better than a relic power sword, points cost or no. Because the platform you're putting it on isn't worth it.

Marines, playing a Space Wolves successor, I find that the relics you take tend to be upgrades to the character. Points costs might work better there.

For relic pistols or AM power swords you can add an Aura on top, so the question becomes do I take the thing that just buffs my other dudes or the one that buffs my character and buffs my dudes a little less.

 vict0988 wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
For Guard at least, a relic that affects your actual units like ROLC is always going to be better than a relic power sword, points cost or no. Because the platform you're putting it on isn't worth it.

Marines, playing a Space Wolves successor, I find that the relics you take tend to be upgrades to the character. Points costs might work better there.

For relic pistols or AM power swords you can add an Aura on top, so the question becomes do I take the thing that just buffs my other dudes or the one that buffs my character and buffs my dudes a little less.

Honestly for guard I'd just be happy with being able to put a non relic plasma gun or melta gun in the hands of the Company Commander. Its kind of silly that for basically decades the options for them has been to basically either take them with as little wargear as possible and a buffing relic, or kitting them out for melee of all things. The buff option at least makes sense, but kitting them in melee builds has always been of dubious benefit, as by the time the costs added up you were halfway to another infantry squad in some editions while bumping their weakness up slightly and not playing to any of their strengths (bonus points in that aside from say the Warrior Weapons option in 3.5 dex, I don't really think there was a way to get the rest of the squad to have increased melee ability through wargear etc.).

Giving the melee weapons a small buff to nearby units might be a neat tradeoff at least. Still, I think I'd like the commander just learn to hold a bigger weapon than a sidearm/bolter.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Sure, but that Dark Eldar isn't locked into carrying around 4 backpacks to fulfill a slot.
Worth mentioning as well that in a Cadian Command Squad? Two of those slots are immediately locked into Medic and Vox.

At least they get character protection now.

I remember back in 7th when my Company Command Squad had the lifespan of a snowman in a microwave.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They want HQ's engaged in glorious heroic charges, leading from the front, and so on. This is why there are so many relic HTH weapons that people take, and so many relic pistols that everyone completely ignores.

I've always thought that expanding ranged options for characters was a no brainer. Why not a Terminator Captain with an Assault Cannon? A Cyclone? Is there a reason my Marine Captain can't have a heavy weapon? I've long wondered if the Captain of the 9th Company - the shootiest Company in a Marine Chapter! - could have some cool Combi-heavy bolter/lascannon thing.

Tau and Guard have ranged options, but it seems odd that basically everyone else is HTH all the time ('cept 'Nids who can do both for some reason).

Yeah, I've never really understood why HQs seem to get the arse end of ranged weapons.

I don't know if it's because (as you say) they think holding a sword is more dramatic or helps distinguish them more. However, one would think that could be solved by exploring magical technology like 'straps' or even 'holsters' (if they want to really emphasise the advanced future technology armies have access to). i.e. they could have a commander holding a sword and pistol, but then have a ranged weapon strapped to his back or at his feet (like he's just dropped it to draw his melee gear).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Relic pistols get ignored because of opportunity cost.

I'd argue they get ignored due to lack of cost. If Relics cost points rather than one-size-fits-all command points (or 1 for free) then this would be less of an issue. Then the value of a Daemon Weapon or a Burning Blade or whatever wouldn't be "equal" to some dinky pistol you'll never use.

On that subject, I guess we can say goodbye to paid upgrades in 10th. So much for that mid-edition paradigm shift.

Oh yeah, this is absolutely a factor, no doubt combined with the fact that you can only take a single relic.
I do, however, think there are a couple of other factors that make things even worse:

- Relic Melee Weapons tend to make already good weapons even better, whilst most relic pistols make bad weapons merely passable.

- Relic melee weapons scale with a character's stats, while relic pistols don't. A relic bolt pistol might get 3 shots, but a relic melee weapon is usually getting 5 or more, and can usually expect higher strength and damage on those attacks to boot. Not only that, but warlord traits and other buffs that boost a character's stats will benefit the melee weapon, whilst buffing the pistol tends to be a good deal harder.

It's a shame as I do like a lot of the relic pistols... they're just rarely worth a precious CP and your only relic slot.

The Company Commander's job is the lead, not to get the best weapon possible to leverage his Ballistic Skill. They carry melee weapons to lead by example and protect themselves during close combats that occur, not to be beatsticks.

 alextroy wrote:
The Company Commander's job is the lead, not to get the best weapon possible to leverage his Ballistic Skill.

Company Commander is gone. It's literally called the "Platoon Command Squad".

Cadian Command Squad just has a "Cadian Commander". The Castellan is its own thing.
Nothing says you can't lead and leverage that Ballistic Skill. Or are you willing to admit that the reason for officers being so cheap is because they're finally fixing the bloated points cost given by that Ballistic Skill?

They carry melee weapons to lead by example and protect themselves during close combats that occur, not to be beatsticks.

Or they carry whatever weapons they want, given that most of the time they're veterans if they're officers.

We get this stuff all the time in Black Library novels for Guard. We see it all the time in the video game portrayals too. And this isn't even getting into some of the weirder, world-specific things like Kasrkin officers, Grenadier officers, etc.

 vipoid wrote:


Yeah, I've never really understood why HQs seem to get the arse end of ranged weapons.

I don't know if it's because (as you say) they think holding a sword is more dramatic or helps distinguish them more. However, one would think that could be solved by exploring magical technology like 'straps' or even 'holsters' (if they want to really emphasise the advanced future technology armies have access to). i.e. they could have a commander holding a sword and pistol, but then have a ranged weapon strapped to his back or at his feet (like he's just dropped it to draw his melee gear).

I chalked up as a historical thematic thing.
Historically officers had swords as a symbol of office on the field, even in the World Wars.
Even today officers are given a ceremonial sword, although I don't think they take it with them on deployment.

From a modeling perspective it's a lot easier to differentiate the officer if he's the only one with a sword.
Personally though I'd rather they went the Roman route and give them a nice helmet or bit of armour.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The Company Commander's job is the lead, not to get the best weapon possible to leverage his Ballistic Skill.

Company Commander is gone. It's literally called the "Platoon Command Squad".

Cadian Command Squad just has a "Cadian Commander". The Castellan is its own thing.
Nothing says you can't lead and leverage that Ballistic Skill. Or are you willing to admit that the reason for officers being so cheap is because they're finally fixing the bloated points cost given by that Ballistic Skill?

Don't get pedantic on me. Be it a Company Commander, Platoon Commander Squad leader, or Castellan from 3rd to 9th edition, the model's job has never been to bring the best gun. It has been to lead. It's not like their points value has been too high because you can't give them Plasmaguns. The unit's value wouldn't really change if their BS became 6+ tomorrow. They bring the orders that make the rest of the army better. More leader models need to do things that make them better leaders rather than be the better combatants (ranged or melee) their faction has.

They carry melee weapons to lead by example and protect themselves during close combats that occur, not to be beatsticks.

Or they carry whatever weapons they want, given that most of the time they're veterans if they're officers.

We get this stuff all the time in Black Library novels for Guard. We see it all the time in the video game portrayals too. And this isn't even getting into some of the weirder, world-specific things like Kasrkin officers, Grenadier officers, etc.

Sometimes we do. Sometimes we don't. Should be have movie marines to match Uriel Ventris in his novels?

No. The background is full of extraordinary individuals that the game does not support. The game, especially now days, is centered around the models GW produces, for good or ill. Your officer doesn't get to run around with a Plasmagun because his model doesn't have a Plasmagun. It doesn't have a Plasmagun because the design studio's vision is IG leaders with a pistol in one hand, a sword in the other, looking imposing or saying charge!

The "everything is elite/nothing is elite, because of points" guy thinks elite "Top Dogs" should be equivalent in power (regardless of points).

 alextroy wrote:
The Company Commander's job is the lead, not to get the best weapon possible to leverage his Ballistic Skill. They carry melee weapons to lead by example and protect themselves during close combats that occur, not to be beatsticks.

You can say that about just about every hq in the game - their job is to lead. The point is that for most of the game's existence, most hq type units have been given dozens of options for bumping up their melee, while having very few options of adding to their ranged. I don't think anybody is asking for guard company commanders to get rapid fire lascannons here - just maybe the option to occasionally take a non-pistol ranged weapon instead of buffing up their melee from "bad" to "mediocre". The same really goes for space marine captains/chapter masters and the like - it would be interesting if instead of all melee options/relics you could instead give them something beyond a handgun.

I think very few people are asking for the ability of these units to break the game with dozens of shot reaching across the entire gameboard. It would just be neat to have well, the *option* to instead of taking a pistol/sword, say take a decent rifle.

 alextroy wrote:
Don't get pedantic on me. Be it a Company Commander, Platoon Commander Squad leader, or Castellan from 3rd to 9th edition, the model's job has never been to bring the best gun.

Company Commander was a solo HQ choice that issued 2 Orders/turn in 8E.
Platoon Commander was an Elite choice that issued 1 Order/turn in 8E.

The new book does away with the Company Commander entirely. You can insist that I'm just being pedantic, but they were two very different concepts in the previous book and you're being called out for misrepresenting what is actually present now.

It has been to lead. It's not like their points value has been too high because you can't give them Plasmaguns. The unit's value wouldn't really change if their BS became 6+ tomorrow.

A Cadian/Platoon Command Squad(issues 1 Order/turn) is 75pts.
A Castellan(which is 1/Detachment to issue 2 Orders/turn) is 50 pts and comes with no support squad.
Iron hand Straken is 75pts, also 2/turn and a Commandant as well meaning 1/Detachment--no support squad.
Ursula Creed is 80pts, 3/turn, and a Commandant--no support squad.
A Death Korps Marshal is 35pts, 2/turn, also Commandant w/ no support squad.

They bring the orders that make the rest of the army better.

Orders are a relatively new thing though. They coincided with the removal of the "Command Platoon" setup, which let the Officer be surrounded by Special Weapon Squads, Heavy Weapon Squads, and even in some editions a Sentinel Squad.

More leader models need to do things that make them better leaders rather than be the better combatants (ranged or melee) their faction has.

That's a problem for other leader models then? Not sure why you think that Guard should be punished from getting a bit more utility(with an appropriate cost adjustment) and flavor added to their hero choices just because everyone else needs to work on their shouting exercises.

Oh, and BTW? One. Order. Per. Turn.
That's how many Orders the Command Squads issue. Just in case you forgot.
You have to get into named characters, Relics, Warlord Traits, or the 1 per Detachment levels of Officer to get 2/turn.

Sometimes we do. Sometimes we don't. Should be have movie marines to match Uriel Ventris in his novels?

We already do? I mean, that's why we saw things like:
Armour of Contempt, the additional Wounds, etc.

No. The background is full of extraordinary individuals that the game does not support. The game, especially now days, is centered around the models GW produces, for good or ill.

That's a lie. We literally could have Tempestor Primes/Tempestors with Hotshot Lasguns, Kasrkin Sergeants with Hotshot Lasguns(which are even an option in Kill Team!), Cadian Sergeants now can get Lasguns from the upgrade frame, etc.

All of that stuff is straight from the kit.

Your officer doesn't get to run around with a Plasmagun because his model doesn't have a Plasmagun. It doesn't have a Plasmagun because the design studio's vision is IG leaders with a pistol in one hand, a sword in the other, looking imposing or saying charge!

For the record, these are 2 upcoming novels. One featuring a Cadian Officer standing behind Ursula Creed with a lasgun out, and the bottom most featuring a Lieutenant wielding a sniper rifle with a pair of snipers accompanying them.
The middle one(Traitor's Rock) features Lieutenant Minka Lesk with her lasgun, prior to her capture of the sabre that she gets as an option in the forthcoming kit.

All of these images have to be approved by GW licensing, which works with the Design Studio. There's also the image in my avatar, which is the cover art for "Kasrkin" which is a Kasrkin Captain(y'know...an Officer?) wielding his hellgun.

I'm not asking for much here. I just would like to see Guard get the option for a dedicated ranged fighty character.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Don't get pedantic on me. Be it a Company Commander, Platoon Commander Squad leader, or Castellan from 3rd to 9th edition, the model's job has never been to bring the best gun.

Company Commander was a solo HQ choice that issued 2 Orders/turn in 8E.
Platoon Commander was an Elite choice that issued 1 Order/turn in 8E.

The new book does away with the Company Commander entirely. You can insist that I'm just being pedantic, but they were two very different concepts in the previous book and you're being called out for misrepresenting what is actually present now.

It has been to lead. It's not like their points value has been too high because you can't give them Plasmaguns. The unit's value wouldn't really change if their BS became 6+ tomorrow.

A Cadian/Platoon Command Squad(issues 1 Order/turn) is 75pts.
A Castellan(which is 1/Detachment to issue 2 Orders/turn) is 50 pts and comes with no support squad.
Iron hand Straken is 75pts, also 2/turn and a Commandant as well meaning 1/Detachment--no support squad.
Ursula Creed is 80pts, 3/turn, and a Commandant--no support squad.
A Death Korps Marshal is 35pts, 2/turn, also Commandant w/ no support squad.

And your point is what? They lead. Some better than others. Some for different points than others. None of them have good enough weapons that you would actually care much if their BS changed to 6+ because you aren't taking them for their weapons. (Exclude the non-Officer models in the Command Squads, which is why they are more expensive than the one-model units. That squad can actually bring dangerous weapons with range.)

They bring the orders that make the rest of the army better.

Orders are a relatively new thing though. They coincided with the removal of the "Command Platoon" setup, which let the Officer be surrounded by Special Weapon Squads, Heavy Weapon Squads, and even in some editions a Sentinel Squad.

More leader models need to do things that make them better leaders rather than be the better combatants (ranged or melee) their faction has.

That's a problem for other leader models then? Not sure why you think that Guard should be punished from getting a bit more utility(with an appropriate cost adjustment) and flavor added to their hero choices just because everyone else needs to work on their shouting exercises.

Who's being punished? They are doing what they do, which is what they are supposed to do.

Oh, and BTW? One. Order. Per. Turn.
That's how many Orders the Command Squads issue. Just in case you forgot.
You have to get into named characters, Relics, Warlord Traits, or the 1 per Detachment levels of Officer to get 2/turn.

Sometimes we do. Sometimes we don't. Should be have movie marines to match Uriel Ventris in his novels?

We already do? I mean, that's why we saw things like:
Armour of Contempt, the additional Wounds, etc.

No. The background is full of extraordinary individuals that the game does not support. The game, especially now days, is centered around the models GW produces, for good or ill.

That's a lie. We literally could have Tempestor Primes/Tempestors with Hotshot Lasguns, Kasrkin Sergeants with Hotshot Lasguns(which are even an option in Kill Team!), Cadian Sergeants now can get Lasguns from the upgrade frame, etc.

This is all nice. And none of it is particularly dangerous. Single Lasguns and Hotshot Lasguns don't to much in the game. I'm all fine with Squad leaders have the same gun as the rest of the squad. I just don't agree then need special and heavy weapons.

All of that stuff is straight from the kit.

Your officer doesn't get to run around with a Plasmagun because his model doesn't have a Plasmagun. It doesn't have a Plasmagun because the design studio's vision is IG leaders with a pistol in one hand, a sword in the other, looking imposing or saying charge!

Spoiler:

For the record, these are 2 upcoming novels. One featuring a Cadian Officer standing behind Ursula Creed with a lasgun out, and the bottom most featuring a Lieutenant wielding a sniper rifle with a pair of snipers accompanying them.
The middle one(Traitor's Rock) features Lieutenant Minka Lesk with her lasgun, prior to her capture of the sabre that she gets as an option in the forthcoming kit.

All of these images have to be approved by GW licensing, which works with the Design Studio. There's also the image in my avatar, which is the cover art for "Kasrkin" which is a Kasrkin Captain(y'know...an Officer?) wielding his hellgun.

I'm not asking for much here. I just would like to see Guard get the option for a dedicated ranged fighty character.

Nice pictures of extraordinary character. Interesting that the most dangerous items here are mundane weapons of lasguns, a hellion, and that special one with a Sniper Rifle.

But like a said, just because characters in novels break the rules doesn't mean you should expect GW to write their game rules that way. We all know they have been paring back options for the last 4 editions of the game.

 alextroy wrote:
The Company Commander's job is the lead, not to get the best weapon possible to leverage his Ballistic Skill. They carry melee weapons to lead by example and protect themselves during close combats that occur, not to be beatsticks.

And every Company Commander is the same? You can't think of any reason why a commander, from the multitude of worlds across the Imperium, would be more inclined to carry a big gun rather than a big stick?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The Company Commander's job is the lead, not to get the best weapon possible to leverage his Ballistic Skill. They carry melee weapons to lead by example and protect themselves during close combats that occur, not to be beatsticks.

And every Company Commander is the same? You can't think of any reason why a commander, from the multitude of worlds across the Imperium, would be more inclined to carry a big gun rather than a big stick?

I can think of many reasons. I also know that GW is leaning stronger into No Model, No Rules with every release. So I think this falls into the "that would be nice, but don't hold your breathe" category of wishlisting.

For HQs with guns, I'm just trying to recall some off the top of my head.

Tyranids get HQs with Venom Cannons, etc.
Eldar I'm not sure about, but at least in the past I think Autarchs could get Reaper Launchers or Shuriken Canons. Can an HQ mount a Shuriken Cannon on their Jetbike?
Tau had that (quad?) Fusion gun loadout, iirc. Their suits are obviously weapon-centric.

There's probably some more out there.

Marines used to get the option for a Conversion Beamer on a Techmarine HQ, I think that's long gone though.
While not a "gun", Tzeentch Sorcerors with Bolt of Change is pretty classic.

 Insectum7 wrote:
For HQs with guns, I'm just trying to recall some off the top of my head.

Tyranids get HQs with Venom Cannons, etc.
Eldar I'm not sure about, but at least in the past I think Autarchs could get Reaper Launchers or Shuriken Canons. Can an HQ mount a Shuriken Cannon on their Jetbike?
Tau had that (quad?) Fusion gun loadout, iirc. Their suits are obviously weapon-centric.

There's probably some more out there.

Marines used to get the option for a Conversion Beamer on a Techmarine HQ, I think that's long gone though.
While not a "gun", Tzeentch Sorcerors with Bolt of Change is pretty classic.

Primaris Captain and lieutenant can take either a Mastercrafted auto bolt rifle or a Mastercrafted stalker bolt rifle.
Gravis version takes a Mastercrafted heavy bolt rifle.
Lord of Virulence has a twin plague spewer.
Cadian Castellan can take a boltgun
Tank Commander has a tank.

 Insectum7 wrote:
For HQs with guns, I'm just trying to recall some off the top of my head.

Tyranids get HQs with Venom Cannons, etc.
Eldar I'm not sure about, but at least in the past I think Autarchs could get Reaper Launchers or Shuriken Canons. Can an HQ mount a Shuriken Cannon on their Jetbike?
Tau had that (quad?) Fusion gun loadout, iirc. Their suits are obviously weapon-centric.

There's probably some more out there.

Marines used to get the option for a Conversion Beamer on a Techmarine HQ, I think that's long gone though.
While not a "gun", Tzeentch Sorcerors with Bolt of Change is pretty classic.

Yes autarchs can take reaper launchers and fusion guns, and all jetbikes can take shuricannons or scatter lasers. Then there's the Poenix Lords many if whom actually have really good shooting weapons - asurmen has 24" assault6 and Jain zar has 12" assault6...

World eaters Daemon princes now have infernal cannons as standard.
Jackal alpha's have a sniper rifle
Brokyr iron masters have graviton rifles

Mega armour warbosses and meks have big shootas and mega blasters respectively (not to mention the shokk attack gun)

Necron overlords have their tachyon arrow or staff of light



Most armies have gun wielding HQs