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So if boyz do go up to 32mm, so anyone who owns AOBR boys screwed if they want to play where people care about the base size change? AOBR boys have that little slot in the base since their monopose models...

Even outside of that buying and replacing 200+ models sounds aweful

Gretchen unit size: go big, or go min for CP farming? I have a little over 30 so they can go as a big mob or 3 min mobs.

I can see some clever tricks using min grotz. They're small enough where true LOS can keep them hidden, but a 30 "strong" mob can be a decent screen with a Boss or runt herd.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Gretchen unit size: go big, or go min for CP farming? I have a little over 30 so they can go as a big mob or 3 min mobs.

I can see some clever tricks using min grotz. They're small enough where true LOS can keep them hidden, but a 30 "strong" mob can be a decent screen with a Boss or runt herd.

I tend to do both. depends on the size of the game and the rest of the army. Early on this edition they have been money for me. Stopping deepstrike, preventing any meaningful first turn charge by the enemy taking objectives. Typically I'll put 30 in front with another 10 or 20 in the back to insure no possible landing zones for the enemy in my deployment Zone and free up my other units to go fight.
Try both options and find the one that works for you better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Billagio wrote:
So if boyz do go up to 32mm, so anyone who owns AOBR boys screwed if they want to play where people care about the base size change? AOBR boys have that little slot in the base since their monopose models...

Even outside of that buying and replacing 200+ models sounds aweful

What does the BRB say about bases and base sizes?

So with the new previews on the Warhammer Community page covering stratagems for the new Killteam box set, does anyone else think there might be a possibility we could see some new stratagems that might make it into the codex? A couple of the Admech Stratagems they showed are straight out of their codex, so we might see some new stuff. We should see the ork preview soon, either Monday or Wednesday depending if they're going to be posting the previews on weekends or not.

I'm pretty excited for Ork Kill team. I have so many different Nob models that they might actually become useful. And a whole Grot Kommando list just seems super fun if not ridiculous.

 Billagio wrote:
So if boyz do go up to 32mm, so anyone who owns AOBR boys screwed if they want to play where people care about the base size change? AOBR boys have that little slot in the base since their monopose models...

Even outside of that buying and replacing 200+ models sounds aweful

By Gork and Mork I hope we don't go up to 32mm for boyz. For some units, like nobz, lootas, or other specialists, sure, but I have 100 zogging boyz and I do not want to spend a whole evening rebasing and regluing them all.

 Billagio wrote:
So if boyz do go up to 32mm, so anyone who owns AOBR boys screwed if they want to play where people care about the base size change? AOBR boys have that little slot in the base since their monopose models...

Even outside of that buying and replacing 200+ models sounds aweful

Plz No!

Its always been fine to use models with the base they came with, so I don't think it will be an issue.

So I just won a game...I think I completely tricked him though to win. He showed up with a bunch of harlequins with good CC ability and lots of rapid fire weapons....I showed up with 3 Battlewagonz with Ard Topz, 2 Trukkz with Tankbustas, a Dreadnought and 5 Mek Gunz. we called the game at the end of turn 2 because it was clearly going my way and we were running short on time.

Some take aways for these under used units (not mek gunz)

Battlewagons: NOT TOUGH. Now I know harlequins tend to be more crazy then most with their special rules but holy crap those Battlewagons were not tough. T8 with a 4+ save basically equates to T8 with no save because almost every gun that can hurt the wagon has at least -3 AP which ignores my save completely. This thing desperately needs a 2+ save, maybe give it a 3+ and the ard top upgrades it to T8 2+ save.

Next, Deff Rollas DONT DO ANYTHING. This thing averages 5 S8 hits a CC turn....not bad, except that its a 180pt model and those attacks are only -2 AP and 1 damage each. This things needs 2 modes, 6D3 attacks at S6 -1 AP 1Dmg or 6 attacks at S8 -2 AP 3dmg flat.

Trukkz....well they are fast, my opponent kind of forgot about them and didn't shoot at them at all, probably his biggest tactical error, because he could have easily killed my Tankbustas inside. They were worth it in the sense that my opponent was to focused on my Wagonz which realistically didn't do anything, to kill them.

Tankbustas....as ever good vs vehicles, crap vs anything else.

Dreadnought......he needs about twice as many attacks or 50% more attacks and double his movement speed. he is soooooo slow!

SemperMortis wrote:
So I just won a game...I think I completely tricked him though to win. He showed up with a bunch of harlequins with good CC ability and lots of rapid fire weapons....I showed up with 3 Battlewagonz with Ard Topz, 2 Trukkz with Tankbustas, a Dreadnought and 5 Mek Gunz. we called the game at the end of turn 2 because it was clearly going my way and we were running short on time.

Some take aways for these under used units (not mek gunz)

Battlewagons: NOT TOUGH. Now I know harlequins tend to be more crazy then most with their special rules but holy crap those Battlewagons were not tough. T8 with a 4+ save basically equates to T8 with no save because almost every gun that can hurt the wagon has at least -3 AP which ignores my save completely. This thing desperately needs a 2+ save, maybe give it a 3+ and the ard top upgrades it to T8 2+ save.

Next, Deff Rollas DONT DO ANYTHING. This thing averages 5 S8 hits a CC turn....not bad, except that its a 180pt model and those attacks are only -2 AP and 1 damage each. This things needs 2 modes, 6D3 attacks at S6 -1 AP 1Dmg or 6 attacks at S8 -2 AP 3dmg flat.

Trukkz....well they are fast, my opponent kind of forgot about them and didn't shoot at them at all, probably his biggest tactical error, because he could have easily killed my Tankbustas inside. They were worth it in the sense that my opponent was to focused on my Wagonz which realistically didn't do anything, to kill them.

Tankbustas....as ever good vs vehicles, crap vs anything else.

Dreadnought......he needs about twice as many attacks or 50% more attacks and double his movement speed. he is soooooo slow!

I can't believe I'm saying this but I 100% agree with you on every point here. The whole idea of our codex is "quantity over quality", which I'm fine with, but the biggest single error is that all our units are 100% overpriced so we don't even have the quantity necessary to win.

Also, grats on your win. I had a pretty good run when every army was on indexes, but ever since everyone else got their codexes I've been on a dry spell.

SemperMortis wrote:

Battlewagons: NOT TOUGH. Now I know harlequins tend to be more crazy then most with their special rules but holy crap those Battlewagons were not tough. T8 with a 4+ save basically equates to T8 with no save because almost every gun that can hurt the wagon has at least -3 AP which ignores my save completely. This thing desperately needs a 2+ save, maybe give it a 3+ and the ard top upgrades it to T8 2+ save.

This point about battlewagonz and weapons this edition really makes me question why GW up'd points costs on vehicles. Maybe they did not think all shooting would be damn near auto hit rerolling all fails at first who knows. But you can't expect people to missthis edition and then you also have no save, that is no fun on an expensive model. The battlewagon needs the trukk ramshackle rule on a 5+ to compete and remain orky at 180 points.

I have found that battlewagons do make for great distraction units...possibly relying a little on players who aren't super-familiar with them, but, if nothing else, they can attract a lot of your opponents shooting on turn 1, for <200 points...sure, it is a bit a of a points sacrifice...but it's hopefully saving all your boyz from being shot at turn 1 at least?

 ZoBo wrote:
I have found that battlewagons do make for great distraction units...possibly relying a little on players who aren't super-familiar with them, but, if nothing else, they can attract a lot of your opponents shooting on turn 1, for <200 points...sure, it is a bit a of a points sacrifice...but it's hopefully saving all your boyz from being shot at turn 1 at least?

Except guns used to destroy bw are guns not suited to boyz kill. You think he will use heavy bolters to shoot bw? No he uses lascannons who would have been forced to shoot at boyz. You have just made his life easier by providing optimal targets for all of his guns

ok ok, never mind, forget I spoke.

just take more boyz. boyzboyzboyz.

Kommandos and stormboyz have really helped my games. My friends and the local tournaments use the ITC Champions Missions, which I really enjoy. In my 2000 point games I use about 70 boyz, 35 Kommandos, and 40-50 stormboyz supported by 8-11 characters. I’ve played around a lot with the ratio of boyz to Kommandos to stormboyz and which characters to bring.


Here’s my 1500 point list for the next local tournament:

Battalion

Warboss (power Klaw)
Warboss (power Klaw)
Big Mek with KFF (Headwoppa’s killchoppa)
19 Boyz (Slugga Choppa, nob with powerklaw)
19 Boyz (Slugga Choppa, nob with big choppa)
11 Boyz (Slugga Choppa, nob with big choppa)
Painboy (Killsaw and grot orderly)
Nob with Waaagh! Banner

Vanguard

Weirdboy (da jump)
Weirdboy (da jump)
9 Kommandos (Slugga Choppa, 2x Burna, nob with Big Choppa)
9 Kommandos (Slugga Choppa, 2x Burna, nob with Big Choppa)
9 Kommandos (Slugga Choppa, 2x Burna, nob with Big Choppa)

Outrider

Big Mek on Warbike with KFF (powerklaw)
19 Stormboyz (Slugga Choppa, nob with Big Choppa)
9 Stormboyz (Slugga Choppa, nob with Big Choppa)
9 Stormboyz (Slugga Choppa, nob with Big Choppa)

 Rismonite wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Battlewagons: NOT TOUGH. Now I know harlequins tend to be more crazy then most with their special rules but holy crap those Battlewagons were not tough. T8 with a 4+ save basically equates to T8 with no save because almost every gun that can hurt the wagon has at least -3 AP which ignores my save completely. This thing desperately needs a 2+ save, maybe give it a 3+ and the ard top upgrades it to T8 2+ save.

This point about battlewagonz and weapons this edition really makes me question why GW up'd points costs on vehicles. Maybe they did not think all shooting would be damn near auto hit rerolling all fails at first who knows. But you can't expect people to missthis edition and then you also have no save, that is no fun on an expensive model. The battlewagon needs the trukk ramshackle rule on a 5+ to compete and remain orky at 180 points.

Agreed. I miss the 90 point BWs from our 5th edition codex so we could do a proppa BW blitz. Was one of my favorite lists, I loved deploying 4-5 models and having it turn into ~100 by turn 2. BWs right now would be fairly durable if there wasnt so much re roll shenanigans with shooting for half or more of the armies.

I like ork vehicles having more wounds but a worse armor save for thematic reasons, but I think that when assigning points GW overestimated the value of those additional wounds by quite a bit. IIRC a Battlewagon takes about 1.3 more Lascannon hits to destroy than a Rhino.

Of course KFF synergy helps a lot with this. A Battlewagon protected by a KFF is as tough against Lascannons as a land raider, but a Big Mek with a KFF definitely adds to the cost.

Maybe they'll bring back the extra armor upgrade, but make it increase the armor save to 3+? That combined with a significant points reduction would be good.

I agree that I'd like to see Ramshackle put on Battlewagons. I'd actually like to see it on all ork vehicles.

I wouldn't mind seeing them split the Battlewagon into the normal Battlewagon which would have more restricted wargear choices and be a Dedicated Transport, and a Kustom Battlewagon which would have all the fancy options and remain a Heavy Support choice.

I really do hope they improve the Battlewagon, as it is one of my favorite units that the orks have. An ability to fire twice similar to LRBTs and Fire Prisms has been suggested in the past (usually with the assumption that ork shooting was going to get buffs and price drops). What would you guys think about instead of firing twice that Battlewagon and its passengers had the ability to fire out of combat like Squiggoths can? Slapping every gun and a Deffrolla on a Battlewagon and then rolling back and forth over my opponent while the Flash Gitz in the back are shooting wildly in every direction has real appeal to me.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

Spoiler:

I like ork vehicles having more wounds but a worse armor save for thematic reasons, but I think that when assigning points GW overestimated the value of those additional wounds by quite a bit. IIRC a Battlewagon takes about 1.3 more Lascannon hits to destroy than a Rhino.

Of course KFF synergy helps a lot with this. A Battlewagon protected by a KFF is as tough against Lascannons as a land raider, but a Big Mek with a KFF definitely adds to the cost.

Maybe they'll bring back the extra armor upgrade, but make it increase the armor save to 3+? That combined with a significant points reduction would be good.

I agree that I'd like to see Ramshackle put on Battlewagons. I'd actually like to see it on all ork vehicles.

I wouldn't mind seeing them split the Battlewagon into the normal Battlewagon which would have more restricted wargear choices and be a Dedicated Transport, and a Kustom Battlewagon which would have all the fancy options and remain a Heavy Support choice.

I really do hope they improve the Battlewagon, as it is one of my favorite units that the orks have. An ability to fire twice similar to LRBTs and Fire Prisms has been suggested in the past (usually with the assumption that ork shooting was going to get buffs and price drops). What would you guys think about instead of firing twice that Battlewagon and its passengers had the ability to fire out of combat like Squiggoths can? Slapping every gun and a Deffrolla on a Battlewagon and then rolling back and forth over my opponent while the Flash Gitz in the back are shooting wildly in every direction has real appeal to me.

I know we are talking wishlisting now but any upgrade leading to an improvement would be an auto take (Improved Armor for example). I think lowering the points costs might just be a bandaid. They really need to add ramshackle (at 5+) to the core rules as well as allowing occupants to fire full ballistic while the wagon moves. As far as making a Dakkawagon viable, I really think they just need to open up the weapon capacity on it, combined with making some of our weapons a little cheaper. But being allowed to buy like ten to fifteen big shootas at 3 or 4 points each might be a nice way to make it a dakkaplatform. Besides, seeing the creative Mekz shoving fifteen Big Shootas on a battlewagon is something that really needs to be seen. I really think tabletop rules really hinder the brand of madness most ork players would like to unleash. I'd be using sprue and diamond plate to stuff an extra platform on top of my battlewagon to fit all the Big Shootas GW would let me fit. Honestly, just declaring that my battlewagon is going to fire at something then picking up fourtyfive dice to determine the results would be enough that I'd do that every game.

The trukk needs the same treatment, improve Ramshackle to 5+, let us put like five to eight big shootas at 3 points each on the trukk and suddenly it is reasonable firesupport, and the model itself would be a sight to behold.

I agree that I don't want any auto-take upgrades. That would all depend on how much the base wagon and how much the upgrade cost.

 Rismonite wrote:
[As far as making a Dakkawagon viable, I really think they just need to open up the weapon capacity on it, combined with making some of our weapons a little cheaper. But being allowed to buy like ten to fifteen big shootas at 3 or 4 points each might be a nice way to make it a dakkaplatform. Besides, seeing the creative Mekz shoving fifteen Big Shootas on a battlewagon is something that really needs to be seen. I really think tabletop rules really hinder the brand of madness most ork players would like to unleash. I'd be using sprue and diamond plate to stuff an extra platform on top of my battlewagon to fit all the Big Shootas GW would let me fit.

One of the thing's I liked the most about the old Kustom Stompa rules was the Deff-Arsenal. Basically Forge World just said that we could model as many weapons as we wantedcould fit on the torso of the Stompa and they generated 3d6 S9 shots plus d3 Supa-Rokkits every turn. It was amazing. I wouldn't mind seeing every large ork vehicle get their own version of the Deff-Arsenal, in addition to Ramshackle and an increased chance to explode.

Failing Deff-Arsenals for everything, I'd really like Forge World to come out with rules for a Battlewagon that let me put on a Big Gun, a Killkannon and a Supa-Kannon all at the same time but with zero transport capacity.

Speaking of up-gunned Trukks, I'm annoyed that Forge World forgot to include Gun Trukks in their Index. They sell Trukks, they sell the guns to put in them, why no Gun Trukks? It's not as bad as forgetting the Mega Dread but it was still pretty bad, IMO. That said, without a fix from GW for Big Gunz at BS 5+ I'm sure Gun Trukks would have been terrible.

I'm really hoping we get rules for looting vehicles in the codex. Not just because I want to loot other faction's vehicles, but also because they could be used to represent Ork vehicles that that don't have rules like Gun Wagons. The Big Trakk does an okay job of this, but it would be nice to get a bunch of different data sheets to represent different things rather than try to make one unit work for everything.

Ive given up hope for fw a long time ago, despite that new necron mini, they give a grots a$$ about anything that isn't 30k or imperium ( that includes necromunda minis). Fw is full of space marine fanboys, its best to understand that, the only people that gets Fw to care about anything else is gw, and they pretty much twisted fws arm just to get them to put out the indexes.

Zog those squid sack English gitz

geargutz wrote:
....Zog those squid sack English gitz

Who says they're all English? Could be some sweaties, sheep shaggers, yanks or frogs in there.

We now have more information on Killteam Orks than we do on the actual Ork codex.

This is getting ridiculous.

But i'd like it if those 'stratagems' make it into the codex. Seems quite useful to me... and i love the idea of grabbing a nearby grot for meat shield

Yes I like the grot strat too, but 2cp seems a bit much

the grot thin is interesting; it says all shots are resolved against the grot squad. Does that mean if you put it out of LOS, then the shooting attack will fizzle unless it has the no LOS special rules?

 davou wrote:
the grot thin is interesting; it says all shots are resolved against the grot squad. Does that mean if you put it out of LOS, then the shooting attack will fizzle unless it has the no LOS special rules?

At least not in 8th. Once you've declared what you are shooting at, LOS is never checked again. You have a similar interaction with death shroud terminators, they will get hit by any shot they take for Moration, even if they are out of LOS


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gruxz wrote:
Yes I like the grot strat too, but 2cp seems a bit much

Considering how easy orks can get CP with gretchin and boyz, 2CP seems fair. If the codex is well balanced, I fully expect every ork army to have at least 13 CP, maybe with some way to regain them.

Your gretchin could screen for both melee and ranger. Plunk down a meatshield in front of lootas, or flashgitz, or nobs or whatever. It also means you could use Da Jump to keep your screen in front of deepstrikers, IF this stratagem is also in the codex.

I would pay 2 CPS every turn for that.

The grot stratagem would be completely useless in 40k. You resolve the attack against the grot and after the grot has died you take the shots as normal.

So the 2CP stratagem protects a single model for what, 1 or 2 shots before the grot dies and you're back to taking shots as normal? Meh.

Perhaps if the 40k equivalent gave meant we could use a squad of grots to protect another squad, then we'd be talking but even then we kinda have that already with Ammo Runts/Grot Oilers etc

I think it would apply to the units involved. For instance a mob of lootas and a mob of grots within 2 inches.. after all you sacrifice the grots and 2 cp.

I wonder if this backup plan, paired with 'dakka dakka dakka' might make lootas viable again.

Edit: make that a mob of 30 grots and those lootas are pretty hard to get rid of ... expensive but funny

I actually think lootas are still good. Iuse them as backfield units behind the mekguns to prevent ds and have some nice long range shots. D2 damage is gold