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As the title says - the codex and 7th have been out for a little while. How are you guys building your armies? Assuming you play ~1,500 pts.

Vets vs. Platoons? Mech Vets vs. foot vets? How are you equipping them?



Should we be forming our armies around bloated foot blobs, or MSU Vets in Chimeras?

Vets for chimera based, more foot based platoons.

I find in the armies where I am taking advantage of orders I want platoons because then I can blob up and get the most out of guys who buff the leadership as well as orders.

 Leth wrote:
Vets for chimera based, more foot based platoons.

I find in the armies where I am taking advantage of orders I want platoons because then I can blob up and get the most out of guys who buff the leadership as well as orders.

OK...but assuming you have the models for both, which is generally better for 7th?

With the nerf to chimera fire points and the points decrease in vet doctrine, I'm inclined to think they're better on foot. You only get two BS4 weapons out the top. Even the las arrays are BS3. You can take camo and snare mines, and hold a position while offering fire support at range (where they'll also benefit from orders). A guard unit can fire a special weapon and heavy weapon, and a chimera can drive them into flamer/rapid fire range.

I plan to use vets as fire support and guard as mech assault/objective grab.

depends on the rest of your army...

both are good choices, both do slightly different things.

platoons have more #'s and durability, and the potential for more damage,

the vets will do more reliable damage, but will suffer from lack of #'s lack of durability, and so on.

its a trade off, there is no auto take. you can even mix them to good effect.

personally, if I run plattons its full plattoon or nothing,

for my vets, its full squad of whatever special weapons i need, in carapace armour, in chimeras.

 TheSilo wrote:
With the nerf to chimera fire points and the points decrease in vet doctrine, I'm inclined to think they're better on foot. You only get two BS4 weapons out the top. Even the las arrays are BS3. You can take camo and snare mines, and hold a position while offering fire support at range (where they'll also benefit from orders). A guard unit can fire a special weapon and heavy weapon, and a chimera can drive them into flamer/rapid fire range.

I plan to use vets as fire support and guard as mech assault/objective grab.

Personally I dont think chimeras really got nerfed. It is more of a side ways shift. With the rise of MSU getting to target 4 different units each shooting phase is massive, not having to dedicate a full units fire when there is 1-2 guys left offers a lot of versatility.

I think right now both are quite good in 7th its just a matter of how you want to play.

I am a fan of the hybrid approach myself

Leth, I didn't mean chimeras got nerfed. Just the fire points with respect to vets.

Guardsmen are better, since they can man the las arrays and still fire a special + heavy out the top.

Vets can only fire two bs4 weapons out the top, las arrays are always bs3.

Point being, vets can be more effective on foot with camo or carapace armor. Guardsmen are just as good as before, and give you a super scoring chimera. I just think the foot guardsmen / mech vets dichotomy has been switched, now it's better as mech guardsmen / foot vets.

I feel like the double special out the top from the vets benefits more from the chimera platform. In addition to not being able to maximize buffs/orders in a chimera makes it kind of Meh for infantry.

In my last tournament having 3 lascannon blobs receiving orders was a huge benefit. Throw in a psyocculum inquisitor and coteaz and you got serious buffs going on as well as deep strike protection. Potentially getting things like prescience off. Meanwhile Vets can operate well on their own advancing.

I want to try the two melta heavy flamer vet squad with a hull heavy flamer and multi-laser that advances, gets heavy flamer over watch. Can target three different units with the squad inside, and can operate quite well and reliably by itself backed up by blobs. Also the ability to throw in a terminator character into the chimera(if you want to) just makes it all the juicier.

For those of you doing Mech Vets, how are you equipping them?

Foot guard, same story, how are you equipping your blobs?

I am planning a hybrid approach. I am planning on two units of grenadier vets with two meltas and a heavy flamer in chimeras and then for my foot blobs I am running three infantry squads blobbed with lascannons. I am then running a big blob of conscripts

I am then bringing in two hereticus inquisitors with nullrods for each foot blob as well as yarrick for his draconian disapline and two orders. Inquisitors give my units leadership 10 for orders which is quite nice.
So now if I fire at a unit with the psyker rule I am bs 10 in my blobs as well as stubborn and immune to psychic shooting and maladictions. In addition I dont take tests from shooting so now you have to chew through the entire blob.

I prefer Veterans.

For me Veterans fit my army better on a number of levels. First off they're Veterans, not just random enlisted schmucks. My army is supposed to depict a more elite, organized force rather than a sprawling battalion. Their weapon selections and unit options also lend themselves well to the theme, particularly the obscene amount of flamers and heavy flamers they can sport.

 Dust wrote:
I prefer Veterans.

For me Veterans fit my army better on a number of levels. First off they're Veterans, not just random enlisted schmucks. My army is supposed to depict a more elite, organized force rather than a sprawling battalion. Their weapon selections and unit options also lend themselves well to the theme, particularly the obscene amount of flamers and heavy flamers they can sport.

@Dust
Love the Corgi!

@OP
Vets. Being Vets that means BS4. Melta or Plasma for me.

I played a blob in 6th. I decided I liked vets simply because there are less carcasses to move every turn and makes the game go smoother. Especially in chimeras. It's nice to have your movement phase take less than a minute.

However, blobs are far more resiliant. Back when Uriah gave you FNP and stubborn the blob was my favorite thing ever.

I found that most games even in a tournament I did very little blob movement.

However that being said I almost lost because I was too lazy to move my blobs into the middle.....

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Dust wrote:
I prefer Veterans.

For me Veterans fit my army better on a number of levels. First off they're Veterans, not just random enlisted schmucks. My army is supposed to depict a more elite, organized force rather than a sprawling battalion. Their weapon selections and unit options also lend themselves well to the theme, particularly the obscene amount of flamers and heavy flamers they can sport.

@Dust
Love the Corgi!

@OP
Vets. Being Vets that means BS4. Melta or Plasma for me.

If they're meched, do you max out on specials or just go with 2 since that's all you're shooting from the Chimera anyway?

What about Krak grenades - necessary? Useful? I'm thinking that with MCs everywhere, and against Wave Serpents, krak grenades might be rather nice to have around.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Dust wrote:
I prefer Veterans.

For me Veterans fit my army better on a number of levels. First off they're Veterans, not just random enlisted schmucks. My army is supposed to depict a more elite, organized force rather than a sprawling battalion. Their weapon selections and unit options also lend themselves well to the theme, particularly the obscene amount of flamers and heavy flamers they can sport.

@Dust
Love the Corgi!

@OP
Vets. Being Vets that means BS4. Melta or Plasma for me.

If they're meched, do you max out on specials or just go with 2 since that's all you're shooting from the Chimera anyway?

What about Krak grenades - necessary? Useful? I'm thinking that with MCs everywhere, and against Wave Serpents, krak grenades might be rather nice to have around.

Call me old fashioned, but still 3 of each. Ideally they won't be in the Chimera the whole game. Krak if points allowed.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


If they're meched, do you max out on specials or just go with 2 since that's all you're shooting from the Chimera anyway?

What about Krak grenades - necessary? Useful? I'm thinking that with MCs everywhere, and against Wave Serpents, krak grenades might be rather nice to have around.

My squads are generally structured as such:

10 guys
-1 Flamer
-1 Heavy Flamer
-1 Melta Gun
-3 guys with Shotguns instead of lasguns, one with a Vox Caster and one with a Demo Charge

All in a Multi-laser Chimera

 Dust wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


If they're meched, do you max out on specials or just go with 2 since that's all you're shooting from the Chimera anyway?

What about Krak grenades - necessary? Useful? I'm thinking that with MCs everywhere, and against Wave Serpents, krak grenades might be rather nice to have around.

My squads are generally structured as such:

10 guys
-1 Flamer
-1 Heavy Flamer
-1 Melta Gun
-3 guys with Shotguns instead of lasguns, one with a Vox Caster and one with a Demo Charge

All in a Multi-laser Chimera

That seems really suboptimal and complicated. No offense intended, but I'm looking for tactical advice (i.e., competitive advice), not fluffy list building considerations.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


That seems really suboptimal and complicated. No offense intended, but I'm looking for tactical advice (i.e., competitive advice), not fluffy list building considerations.

No offense taken. I haven't played using the current Astra Militarum rules so things could admittedly be somewhat dated. But at the time, the last time I ran guard routinely, this set up performed pretty well especially against non-Marine armies.

Roll up into the enemy's face with three squads equipped as such. Flame, Heavy Flame, unload with the Chimera laser arrays, heavy bolter, heavy stubber, and multi-laser and then (at the time at least) I'd charge out and stab anything to death that was still standing. Yes, Veterans aren't fantastic in close combat, but when there's 30 of them and they've already set their targets on fire then can usually do enough damage to get their point across. From there they can either hop back into their Chimeras and move on or stay deployed and attack nearby units. Rapid firing lasguns, flame templates, and shotguns hurt. Even Grey Knight Paladins fail their saves sooner or later. >:3

I used foot vets a few times, mostly in a gun-line type arrangement with my platoon outflanking being with Al-Arheim.

I usually went with a lascannon, 2 plasma guns a vox and everyone else with lasguns. I didn't used the doctrines, it used to be costly a bit and it was removing useful units from my list. I mostly faced 'nids so they were MC hunting.

I haven't played 7th yet, nor have I read the rules, however, I'd suggest the following, slowest to fastest...


Infantry Squad [20-30]: Plasma / Lascannon, Meltabombs [x2/3 each] Vox. Add character of choice - Commissar with Aegis, Priest without. Primaris is another option for LD buff, depending upon psychic phase metagame.

This unit sits at home, holding an objective with a handful of support units nearby, like a CCS to give orders. Power Axes may be useful in a metagame dependant way, but they're quite expensive now and this unit is already pretty pricey. I'm avoiding them now. This unit can grind down the last couple turns of a game against non-powerhouse assault units, and with the changes to 7th, can't be contested assuming you're using a proper list.


Vets: 3x Plasma, Chimera: MuL / HB.

Slow rolling support fire tank. Good for taking a central objective, while providing mobile support. Plasma has incredible flexibility. Keep the third Plasma as, A: You're apt to burn a guy to death anyhow, and B: You're a slow moving AV 10 vehicle [super easy to get side armour shots] so you're probably going to be walking before the end of the game. An AC can be insurance, in case you're ejected early and can then provide more long range support fire. Primaris can buff dudes, and gives an Ld boost, assuming 7th still allows buffs to be given to units within the same transport.


Infantry Squad: GL / AC [Bolter?] with Chimera: MuL / HF and Dozer Blades

This unit is designed to move forward to claim a distant objective. Since it will tend to be moving quickly, the cheap weapon options aren't so painful to Snap Fire en route. The unit is relatively cheap and expendable, and can still contribute at range if the Chimera is blown up / immobilized. It is a dedicated generalist, if you will, capable of glancing other transports to death or laying down volume of fire on an infantry unit. Take the Heavy Flamer, as you need something to clear the objective when you get there, and snapping an HB on the move is mostly useless anyway, given the role of sprinting for a few turns to claim a "deep" objective.


Vets: 3x Flamer, Power Axe / Fist, Lasguns, Carapace

Drop from a Valkyrie as a dedicated objective thief. Add an AC for flexibility. Valk comes on, pounds target with MRP / MuL. Switch to hover, deploy duders, repeat bombardment. Toast with flamers, survive return fire with Carapace [Bolter-Equivalent world, you know] repeat if possible. Secure objective, provide fire support with remaining models [keep the lasguns!] and have an awesome overwatch if they're assaulted... assuming overwatch is the same for flamers.

Depending on metagame, Meltaguns might make a suitable replacement. I would only give Vets meltas if they're dropping from a Valk. I find Chimera aren't reliable enough to deploy melta from, and instead stick with Deep Strike Melta [Scions] or Allied Melta [Blood Angel Assault Squads with Meltas, hopping along behind tanks. ]


Hope that helps!

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
For those of you doing Mech Vets, how are you equipping them?

Foot guard, same story, how are you equipping your blobs?

I have been running my vets with plasma guns x3. Two squads each in a chimera.

how to equip for compettive play,

somewhat meta dependant,

but blobs give 5 HWS with autocannons usually, maybe lascannons depending on meta. maybe flamers if pts allow.

you will find that guard having precision shot orders on blobs goes a LONG way to insta gibbing your enemies lynchpin buff dude.. I cannot stress enough how game changing it is to go

"yeah, remember that guy your whole army was getting buffed by?.... yeah he is a smear of paste on the ground now, have fun with that..."


vets, 3 specials per squad of either melta or plasma, depending on your meta, but generally, I find both to be really usefull so have at lest one plas/melta squad, if not two of each. and carapace carapace CARAPACE@!

I got 3x Melta, unless I bring enough anti-tank.

I run:

Platoon 1
PCS - 4 flamers/3 flamers 1 heavy flamer
IS - Commissar
IS
IS

Vets x 3- Chimera with 3x specials (I jump back and forth from metlas and plasmas), grenadiers and forward sentries/demolitions as I see fit.

All in all I generally have the vets in their Chimeras run around together, supporting a flank. Have the platoon run pretty much center field and my heavy support playing rearguard or opposite flank to the vet's.

Add in primaris' as you see fit for psyker shenanigans.

Note: I don't generally waste many points on my platoon, they're not going to do much other than attract attention and if I start throwing heavy weapons in there the points sink become enormous. But, that may vary for you depending on how you want to use your platoon(s), mass FRFSRF still annihilates most infantry or elites coming from a nice 30-40 body platoon.

about the chimeras: a squad of veterans in a chimera is still the same amount of points if not cheaper, so it`s not really a nerf.

I think the reason they got more expensive is to encourage us IG players to buy tauroxes, by making those cheaper in points costs and equipping them with a twin linked autocannon, they have a very big advantage of course

Methinks that the chimera nerf has nothing to do with balance,it`s all about money. the chimera has been around for a million years, along with the basilisk, and so they will not sell lots of those kits anymore, as most guard players probably has multiple kits by now.

Except the taurox is not actually better so your arguement kinda doesnt make sense.

They both have their pluses and minuses, with no clear winner.

I take either depending on the theme of my army.

I have 2 main builds that I currently use:
Armoured battlegroup with a tank Commander(sometimes Pask) and 4 other Leman russes, 2 Bassies, and some Sentinels + Valkyrie. In this list I take 2 Chimera based Melta Vets, a Foot slogging Harker Flamer unit(I know, I know he is not worth the points) and a Plasma Grenadiers unit in the Valkyrie.

In a gunline army I take Platoons with 2 Blobs per platoon and 2-3 Platoons(with armour support via sentinels, Bassies, and russes)

I've found for Mech options that dropping the PG or MGs down to 2 and nabbing a HF instead since you've got the 2 guns to shoot out of the top and one HF for overwatch which also gels nicely with the HF that should be on your Chimeras hull for clearing objectives or counter assault.
It's interesting that it's the same pts cost for 2 PGs with Carapace vs the 3. So carapace away, it'll really keep those models alive when firing out the top.
Also with the 2 model cap per Chimera a regular IS is ideal to put in a Gunline Mech list, since you can roll with an AC/PG combo.

Blobs are still Blobs, except it's become incredibly easy to remove the Leadership portion of the game with the 25pt buff options of Commisar and Priest.

For me tho, MSU is the way to go (be they Vets or Platoons) since I face lots of players who can get into combat with me on turn 2 thereby negating an entire blobs shooting.

If I were to go on foot I'd be a fool not to bring about 30 conscripts with a priest to beef up my table presence.

I'm currently using 1 squad of vets w/ armor and plasma in a chimera. For the other troop slot I've got a platoon, PCS with flamers in a chimera, 2 Heavy Weapons teams (lascannons), and 2 special weapons squads (1 with flamers, 1 with meltas) that I drop out of Vendettas.

So I end up with 1 Chimera w/ Plasma, 1 Chimera w/ Flamers, 2 drop troops for late objective grabbing or tactical strikes, 2 heavy weapons teams to sit on backfield objectives and shoot long range, and a little blob of dudes to either sit on something in the back or follow the chimeras up field for my objective secured scorers.

I'm still tinkering with it atm.