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Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Eldenfirefly wrote:
There is also Iron warriors Slanaash Obliterators. These are very points intensive though, and usually require additional support like a master of possession to get the best out of them. And they are only 24 inch range. However, on the turn they come down, one single unit of three can shoot twice for 36 shots in total. They have a high chance of doing a lot of damage. Pretty CP intensive though.


I mean, isn't high CP cost not just a general disclaimer infront of our units?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Does CSM have any solid anti armor ranged threats? I play Death guard but find my backfield armor pressure is week, and as I already am bringing a CSM sorceror to warptime morty, figured maybe there was a chance csm had some other support options I could throw in?


You cant warptime morty. He isnt HERETIC ASTARTES anymore.
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





He is still heretic Astartes, all death guard are.
I'm not sure tho that cruise missile warp timing Morty is the right play anymore tho, his damage output isn't what it was and you lose all his force multiplying buffs if he's on the other half of the table to the rest of your army.
Warp time was great in 8th as you wanted to maximise the damage he inflicted before he inevitably died in your opponents first shooting phase...

   
Made in it
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Does CSM have any solid anti armor ranged threats? I play Death guard but find my backfield armor pressure is week, and as I already am bringing a CSM sorceror to warptime morty, figured maybe there was a chance csm had some other support options I could throw in?

For now, the best ranged anti-armor solution is Slannesh Havocs with Lascannons. You can use Endless Cacophony to give them 8 shots per turn. Make them Alpha Legion to make them more durable.

Wondering if 'ranged' is the best metric for CSM right now. Havocs 'win' by virtue of being able to take 4 guns w/ 48" range and a Mark, giving them access to the Stratagem. But they're pretty fragile, you can only take 5 T5 1W models. Most opponents will be equipped to take them out quickly in a game.

At mid-range, a unit of 3 Obliterators will have 12 shots and can also take a mark to double their shooting. While there's some randomness and Obliterators are not cheap, they typically outperform Havocs due to volume of shots and greater number of wounds.

The situation is dissatisfying. These 2 units are so efficient compared to everything else in the Codex but mediocre relative to ranged options for Loyalist armies. This is how our top shooting options compare with Deathwatch:

- For a little more than the cost of 1 Obliterator, I could take a 5-man Proteus Kill Team with 4 Frag Cannons. They'd have 8 S7 AP-2 D2 shots, plus a different shooting profile for anti-infantry, plus whatever the Watch Sargent is carrying, plus 10 wounds total for the unit. And I could deliver them in a Drop Pod for less than 100 points, and I could add additional ablative wounds in the form of Vets with Storm Shields and SIA Boltguns.

- For a little more than the cost 2 Obliterators, I could take a 10-man Indomitor Kill Team with 5 Heavy Bolt Rifles plus 5 Heavy Melta Rifles. The HMRs are S8 AP-4 Dd6+2. That unit is T5, 21 Wounds, 3+ Save.

- For a little less than the cost of 3 Obliterators, I could take an 8-man Deathwatch Terminator Squad with 5 TH / SS, 3 Power Fists, and 3 Cyclone Missile Launchers (in addition to other goodies.) That squad could be placed on the battlefield, teleport once per game anywhere it wants, and would have 6 S8 AP-2 D2 shots, in addition to 24 wounds and a 4++ invul save. It would be devastating in melee and most armies would not have a way to destroy it.

These differences in efficiency are magnified if the DW army optimizes for infantry. There are a few ways DW armies can put out 100+ S5 AP-2 D2 shots with rerolls to hit at 30"+ per turn for under 500 points.

So I question the usefulness of CSM ranged shooting in 9th edition. Our best shooting units are outclassed by the lowest-tier loyalist faction, who all happen to have delivery options that can bring them to mid-range anywhere on the board.

For reference, I played a Black Legion gunline most of 8th. It was optimized around lascannons and (sometimes) Scorpius Whirlwinds with rerolls to hit. I can't see a way to make ranged shooting work in 9th, it's a tax on melee units. And I'm having a hard time identifying favorable melee matchups, even massed Possessed have some hard counters.

EDIT: and don't get me started on Tanks / Dreadnoughts. Even Forgeworld.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/12 13:25:23


   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





I have hung up my black legion boots and solely playing death guard for now because of these exact issues. In friendly games my opponents were kind enough to tone down their lists considerably just so we could have a decent game, in competitive games it just wasn't fun.

The only thing Black Legion have going for them for now is Abaddon giving full rerolls and not worrying about core so sitting him next to things like a couple of storm cannon Leviathans or vulkite Contemptors is just horrific.

Even then I found I could put out massive damage early on but then the rest of my army would just quickly melt away...

   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Kansas, United States

Assuming things are as they currently are, with 1W CSMs being the norm, how would you create a melee-focused army? CSMs with chainswords seem like a good start, but you have to get them where they're going, so probably a rhino or two. Thoughts?

Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch 
   
Made in it
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 Octopoid wrote:
Assuming things are as they currently are, with 1W CSMs being the norm, how would you create a melee-focused army? CSMs with chainswords seem like a good start, but you have to get them where they're going, so probably a rhino or two. Thoughts?


This is a good list to consider.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/6090/768010.page#11058128

Might want to read through some of the discussion around it.

   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Kansas, United States

 techsoldaten wrote:
 Octopoid wrote:
Assuming things are as they currently are, with 1W CSMs being the norm, how would you create a melee-focused army? CSMs with chainswords seem like a good start, but you have to get them where they're going, so probably a rhino or two. Thoughts?


This is a good list to consider.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/6090/768010.page#11058128

Might want to read through some of the discussion around it.


Nice! Thanks!

Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





The most "competitive" lists seem to be chaos soup rather than pure CSM. So, lists like Mortarion, Magnus, and you then soup in the best Daemons and Emperor's Children or Iron warriors depending on how you run it.

A trio of Contemptors or Decimators with soul burners pumping out mortal wounds turn is also something to consider. Give them good support with Maser of possession, etc and if they stay alive long enough to keep on shooting, they will melt anything within their shooting range from mortal wounds. Of course, if your opponent is a good one, there is no way he will let such dangerous vehicles live. (unless he is playing hordes and don't care).

Lastly, CSM terminators are cheap enough and yet, deadly enough and tanky enough that they are decent to field. Emperor's children Terminators get an almost gauranteed charge in with Pride of the price strategem.

And noise marines will clear chaff with ease.

Again, the problem is all about resilience. CSM just doesn't have it. We can dish damage out, but most of our stuff are quite fragile. We just don't have the staying power unless we are running something skewed like Mortarion+Magnus.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/14 14:46:48


 
   
Made in ie
Happy Imperial Citizen





Hi, using GoonHammer recent 40k series on unit roles in 9th edition, I have built an Iron Warriors 2K list with each unit in a role. The short of it is, taking Obliterators to the RNG casino - i.e. deep strike one unit in at a time, buff them with strats such as re-roll stats, veterans of the long war, tank hunters and endless cacophony. Rinse and repeat.

Iron Warriors Patrol Detachment - 2K

(Force Multiplier) CSM Terminator Lord - Warlord: Cold & Bitter, Insidium, Power Sword, Lightning Claw, MoK
(Force Multiplier) Exalted Champion - Power Sword, Chainsword, Fleshmetal Exoskelton, MoK
(Force Multiplier) Greater Possessed - MoK

(Brawlers) 10 Terminators - Combi-Bolters & Power Axes, MoS
(Brawlers) 9 Bikes - Chainswords & Additional Combi-Bolter on Champion, MoS

(Objective Utility) 30 Cultists - MoS
(Objective Utility) 30 Cultists - MoS

(Elimination) 10 Warp Talons - MoK
(Elimination) 3 Obliterators - MoS
(Elimination) 3 Obliterators - MoS

The Warp Talons and HQ choices are likely the controversial picks. The talons I am considering as a glass hammer unit to be held in a more counter attack role - perhaps even using the cannon fodder strat to protect them with Cultists if I can't adequately hide them. They hit hard in combat, just getting them there is the trick!

Re the HQ's - The Lord and Exalted Champion combo I like, as you get stable platforms for re-rolls. Exalted champion turns the numbers on the melee weapons like power axes and swords a bit more favorable then just defaulting to lightning claws all the time. The obliterators with the greater possessed also aren't bad in a pinch if you have an exalted champion and lord around.

I could see an argument for any number of HQ combinations though. Maybe two sorcerers with presicience, warptime, delightful agonies and weaver of fates for example to buff individual units or a Dark Apostle (illusory supplication) and Master of Possession (Cursed Earth/Infernal Power).

Any thoughts? Hopefully I provided some useful insight on my thought process anyways. I think Iron Warrior Obliterators and the casino run in my limited games of 9th was the most effective build as they have the raw hitting power RNG providing to wipe units at range.



   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest






Do Word Bearers Possessed unit cause 4 wounds with each attack that gets a 7+ when they use the Revered Hosts stratagem and have the virulent blessing psychic power on them? (Plague bearers cause 4 wounds with Plague banner and virulent blessing in the Chaos Daemon faq) If the Possessed unit uses other buffs such as veterans of the long war stratagem are the 4 wounds triggered on a 5+?

   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Hmm, have you guys seen Belakor's leaks? He looks like a beast!! Maybe he will work in some CSM lists. Or at least chaos soup lists.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/16 00:00:16


 
   
Made in ca
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The Frozen North

 CKO wrote:
Do Word Bearers Possessed unit cause 4 wounds with each attack that gets a 7+ when they use the Revered Hosts stratagem and have the virulent blessing psychic power on them? (Plague bearers cause 4 wounds with Plague banner and virulent blessing in the Chaos Daemon faq) If the Possessed unit uses other buffs such as veterans of the long war stratagem are the 4 wounds triggered on a 5+?
4 wounds on a 7+, yes. You cannot meaningfully combine Veterans of the Long War with Virulent Blessing, as wound rolls are capped at +/-1.

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in it
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmm, have you guys seen Belakor's leaks? He looks like a beast!! Maybe he will work in some CSM lists. Or at least chaos soup lists.

Will be interesting to learn how he fits into CSM lists.

Feels like he's the hard counter to Bladeguard / Deathwing Knights. I imagine there will be a lot of lists that feature him + a Sorcerer with Death Hex.

   
Made in ie
Happy Imperial Citizen





Depend on points - not generally a fan of big center piece models like him. Boys before toys and all that.
   
Made in sg
Longtime Dakkanaut





 techsoldaten wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmm, have you guys seen Belakor's leaks? He looks like a beast!! Maybe he will work in some CSM lists. Or at least chaos soup lists.

Will be interesting to learn how he fits into CSM lists.

Feels like he's the hard counter to Bladeguard / Deathwing Knights. I imagine there will be a lot of lists that feature him + a Sorcerer with Death Hex.


Death hex is so random. Unless we are playing world bearers. Either we make the warp charge roll, and then we depend on the opponent not being able to deny it, or not having a strategem that denies it. There is a lot of what ifs riding one one single psychic. Belakor brings certainty. There is nothing your opponent can do to stop him from cleaving through stuff's invul once he gets into combat. Actually, if we have Belakor in the list, death hex is just additional insurance.

The problem with Bladeguard/ Deathwing is not just their invul. Its also transhuman strategem, and their apocathery.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Eldenfirefly wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmm, have you guys seen Belakor's leaks? He looks like a beast!! Maybe he will work in some CSM lists. Or at least chaos soup lists.

Will be interesting to learn how he fits into CSM lists.

Feels like he's the hard counter to Bladeguard / Deathwing Knights. I imagine there will be a lot of lists that feature him + a Sorcerer with Death Hex.


Death hex is so random. Unless we are playing world bearers. Either we make the warp charge roll, and then we depend on the opponent not being able to deny it, or not having a strategem that denies it. There is a lot of what ifs riding one one single psychic. Belakor brings certainty. There is nothing your opponent can do to stop him from cleaving through stuff's invul once he gets into combat. Actually, if we have Belakor in the list, death hex is just additional insurance.

The problem with Bladeguard/ Deathwing is not just their invul. Its also transhuman strategem, and their apocathery.


Yeah, never had great success with Death Hex for the reasons you stated. Guessing it's like a 20% base possibility of success, which goes up when your opponent didn't bring psychic. When it worked, it worked great.

Looking at Belakor + Sorcerer with Death Hex as a force multiplier. Thinking about Grey Knights, Death Guard, Deathwatch, Daemons - armies that have a ton of Invuls. You build around eliminating invuls and tearing their Paladins / Deathshrouds / Terminators / GUOs apart.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I thought I would ask, but I just got two unopened kits of Forgefiends/Maulerfiends, and have no idea how to build them? Any suggestions for better/more competitive builds? I currently own neither, but do have two Disco Lords and know they might combine well in a list.

11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

3730 Total (210pts painted) 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

The maulerfiend has very limited ranged attacks, he has two melta pistols with 1 shot each, 6" range, or you play him melee only. The forgefiend has 36" hades autocannons, or 24" ectoplasma cannons. If i didnt already have three venomcrawlers i would play forgefiends. A maulerfiend can be killed before he reaches melee, a forgefiend can attack from 36" away.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Neither are that great to be honest, currently. Although forge fiends are probably better right now. Things may change for all we know when our codex comes out. Things are stacked against the Maulerfiend in a more competitive environment right now. Because melta guns and multi melta guns are all the rage right now. And they are the perfect gun to destroy Maulerfiends, who are literally forced to get close up in order to shine at melee.
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

I'd lean Forgefiend for the reasons listed and the likelihood they hit 3+ BS with the book.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
That's what 7th edition is about. Yelling "Forge the Narrative Pussy!" while kicking your opponent in the dick.
 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Iron warriors player here and I'm leaning into a Daemon engine heavy list. It seems the only real way to go at the moment in regards to our very limited options.

I'm thinking of a chaos lord or some sort of character with the Daemonsmith warlord trait and having him support a trio of Daemon engines such as forgefiend/defiler/venomcrawler. This acts as a firebase for the army and can be relatively decent in terms of accuracy with rerolling 1s to hit and exploding sixes.

I would also like to include a Leviathan dread with DCCW and storm canon for even more firepower and some punch in combat as well. Currently I think oblits are far too random and expensive to take.

Troops wise I think minimum squads of Csm in rhinos aren't too bad but the only drama is the massive points cost of a rhino when you look at other factions incredible transports (looking at your drunkhari) cultists are probably more efficient but they are just rubbish.

Overall I think it's very tough to make a decent mono CSM list at the moment unless you lean really hard on the emperor's children.
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

Iron Warriors have a stratagem which lets you reroll the dice for oblits, so dont throw them out of the window, yet. As for daemon engines, a master of possession is good company for them. He can give them +1 to their inv, let them reroll 1s to hit and wound, heal them with his psychic powers.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Ah yes, good idea with the MOP. I'm just trying to find ways to buff Daemon engines that don't involve psychic powers as they have a tendency to fail at key moments.

The list I'm vaugely looking at is ....

Lord/MOP with Daemonsmith to buff the engines.
2 X disco lords as close combat beat sticks.

3 x.csm squads barebones with chains words.

2 venomcrawlers
1 forgefiend

1 Leviathan dread
2 terminator squads

2 X rhinos

The plan would be to absolutely nuke any enemy anti tank units as soon as possible and then throw in the disco lords and terminators to try and win the fight.

A difficult task but I think it could work against middle of the road armies. Obviously would get smashed to bits by meta lists and wouldn't be top tier but might be able to use a thematic force and have a decent chance of victory.
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

If you dont want to use psychic powers to buff your daemon engines your only options will be disco lords and chaos lords.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 p5freak wrote:
If you dont want to use psychic powers to buff your daemon engines your only options will be disco lords and chaos lords.


Yeah I think psychic is the way to go, plus we always have daemonforge! Might try it out on TTS later.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




What are the top two units for chaos space marines?
   
Made in it
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





lot depend by legion...overall oblys, if you play EC i can say noise marines and termies, WB might be sorcerer/possessed and so on.

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Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Rogerio134134 wrote:
Ah yes, good idea with the MOP. I'm just trying to find ways to buff Daemon engines that don't involve psychic powers as they have a tendency to fail at key moments.

The list I'm vaugely looking at is ....

Lord/MOP with Daemonsmith to buff the engines.
2 X disco lords as close combat beat sticks.

3 x.csm squads barebones with chains words.

2 venomcrawlers
1 forgefiend

1 Leviathan dread
2 terminator squads

2 X rhinos

The plan would be to absolutely nuke any enemy anti tank units as soon as possible and then throw in the disco lords and terminators to try and win the fight.

A difficult task but I think it could work against middle of the road armies. Obviously would get smashed to bits by meta lists and wouldn't be top tier but might be able to use a thematic force and have a decent chance of victory.


You can consider a world bearer's legion if the psychic support is so important. World bearers has a strategem to gaurantee a psychic power going off. Honestly, the CSM 9th edition codex will likely solve many problems with our daemon engines because going by the death guard codex, its likely our engines will become WS and BS 3+. So they won't even need a LOD to baby sit them just to make them shoot or fight better.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




I got those except obliterators. Thank you.
   
 
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