Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

zamerion wrote:
Speaking of PA, have any of the books changed points of any faction?

Not that I know of. Maybe the new banshees and incubi? But I don't think so. Drazar may have changed points with his new datasheet, I know Jain Zar did not.

It'd be pretty comical if units were getting point changes like 1-2 months after chapter approved.

Maybe they will give Neophytes the necessary points drop...

Not Online!!! wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, here's to GSC becoming a decent army, ideally without having to jump through 2 vigilus detachments and multi-faction detachments from every section of the book just to get some basic functionality going.

GSC having all their "unit-specific" strats that give that extra bit of flavour/utility to a units also be their "sub-faction" specific strats was really a poor design choice of the original Codex IMO.

Considering the trend of non imperium not getting this status of affairs that seems preetty low a chance to happen.

Well, either we'll get a second pheonix rising where the book is just 30% shorter, or maybe with no factions that will not be named we'll actually see decent attention getting paid.

The problem Cults have currently is just...they don't need goodies like what PA has been mostly about. They need core functionality. They've just got so much clunk and jank in their rules - BS4+ vehicles toting heavy weapons leading to our "Mobile" options functionally being stationary gun turrets, only 5 of their actual units benefitting from cult traits, cartoonishly nerfed Aberrants and Kelermorph, Metamorphs still lacking a reason for their existence with Acolytes toting far nastier weaponry, Neophytes being absolutely identical to Brood Brothers/Guardsmen but for no reason costing 20% more.

I know that problem, i play/ed (well it's hard not to stop playing ) R&H, and mostly played what was in essence an infantry only regiment, that i sold of and replaced with my 31. after the realisation that basic militia got from3 to 4 pts in 8th, and understandably, when your core unit gets that treatment it is no wonder an army tanks in performance, especially if you factor in CP so my condolences.

Genestealer cults get treated like pretty much any "assassin" type character that relies on ambush and high damage output in a competitive video game: every single player who picks the "Sniper" type characters who emphasize the lowest-risk, highest-reward style of play screeches at the fact that they stand no chance once the assassin is already on top of them and they're in a 1 on 1 fight, demands nerfs and ways to combat them without changing their preferred playstyle at all, and the assassin is an actual viable choice for about 3 seconds before they get nerfed to the ground.

Frankly, that is maybee just my opinion, but GSC should've not been so heavily melee centric as they were and still are. Tehy should've been the ambush army, not just relying upon an otk charge but advantagous positions for snipers, shooting units aswell, but alas, maybee i just am too unkowing in design.

Oh no, oh god, a unit exists that can deep strike in and kill a knight if it isn't screened? And it's not a Space Marine captain kitted out in a few very specific ways that we don't care about for some reason? That thing better see a 30% points nerf toot sweet! A 12" range assassin might challenge the supremacy of Characterhammer? No, say I, it shall not be! He MUST be more expensive than nearly every character he can conceivably kill in one round or he is irredeemably broken!!

As a parttime csm player, i understand the frustration on both parts, random spanker popping out somwhere and ripping your lord / sorcerer to shreds for a fraction of the cost? annoying. Not beeing able to use the Asassin the way he should be useable? annoying.

Genestealer Cults have one specific tool that works really well and absolutely 0 tools for almost anything else. What do you do if you see a list with several flyers? Well, you lose. What do you do against anti-deep strike bubbles and stratagems? Lose. Space Marine super-deep strike? lose.

honestly cult ambush has been handled wrong, but also, more importantly, i feel like the sizecreep, with lower unit prices (csm was 15 pts when i started playing, now he is 11) and the general hike in pts for pick up games and competitive on not size increased boards leads to a ridicoulus ammount of gotcha pain, with no possibility to even propper use a defense in depth due to size constraints.

You could, I guess, give them a few stratagems to handle specific situations they don't really have the means to deal with currently, but they need more of a core rework to function. For starters, the "everybody jumps out of a hole and stabs the dudes to death" playstyle is supposed to be only one of three things GSC do, but the "ragged band of vehicle-riding mad max dudes" just....doesn't work, and the "traitor guard regiment" identity is just "hey want to play a guard army but you don't get traits?"

Hey atleast you'd get SOME stratagems which is better, objectively then nothing. Also, out of the thre styles, frankly GSC should've been instead the guerrilla army, Regular core and line bait troops, irregular strategy and abilites, infantry centric , special terrain interactions etc. Focus on special weapons brittle but high damage output.
but that is how i'd design the list...

...They are that. It's just that the units that do what you say are objectively terrible at that job. in terms of shooting units vs melee units, GSC have plenty of shooting or hybrid shooty/melee units, the problem they suffer from is just that those units aren't terribly efficient.

All their vehicles are shooting focused, but are BS4+ with heavy weapons so you either have to plop them down on something and not move all game, relying on the super-tough T6 4+ statline to protect you, or hit like an Ork without Dakkadakkadakka. Other units just end up having ridiculously low damage output for the points however you slice it, like the Jackal bikers and Goliath trucks. If you want to bring down a knight, you can do it with 500 points of aberrants, or 1000 points of achilles ridgerunners, assuming you don't move with any of them. GSC rely on melee only not because that's how the actual army is designed but because it's the only way you'll ever win a game.

zamerion wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/20/psychic-awakening-oppressors-endgw-homepage-post-4/


Genestealer cult in this book.

Interesting. We don't often get a hybrid's point of view. He's distressingly normal (in an imperial citizen way), all mindless zealotry and faith- if it hadn't explicitly mentioned his forehead ridges, it would've been difficult to tell he wasn't an infected human.

The tau connection is far more interesting and well done.

Voss wrote:

Interesting. We don't often get a hybrid's point of view. He's distressingly normal (in an imperial citizen way), all mindless zealotry and faith- if it hadn't explicitly mentioned his forehead ridges, it would've been difficult to tell he wasn't an infected human.

I hadn't thought about that, for some reason I assumed that 4th generation hybrids interbred to create the purestrains so him being a hybrid was a natural assumption for me, but yea if you go back they never give enough detail about his mate to determine if she is also a hybrid or just an infected human.

This short histories are being really good.

Man, what GW can do when they stop writting about bolterporn and try other more, grounded, interesting factions.

Seems to me like a PA book featuring GsC is a prime opportunity to release the currently-unavailable Kellermorph as an individual model.

Are we in LVO week? It's this weekend right?

Big reveals coming up then.

I doubt there'll be many new models for Greater Good. Hopefully we get some reveals on PA6. Some juicy reveals.

Wonder if we'll find out the titles of the next 3 books too?

 Nazrak wrote:
Seems to me like a PA book featuring GsC is a prime opportunity to release the currently-unavailable Kellermorph as an individual model.

Perhaps along with the Start Collecting box mentioned in the codex almost a year ago?

Voss wrote:

zamerion wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/20/psychic-awakening-oppressors-endgw-homepage-post-4/


Genestealer cult in this book.

Interesting. We don't often get a hybrid's point of view. He's distressingly normal (in an imperial citizen way), all mindless zealotry and faith- if it hadn't explicitly mentioned his forehead ridges, it would've been difficult to tell he wasn't an infected human.

The tau connection is far more interesting and well done.

Why is it odd that he is all zealotry? 40K Imperial society is hyper religious compared to today’s societies, and GSC followers replace one focus of devotion with another, sometimes masquerading as another local Imperial cult variant and the Magus or Patriarch being like a cult leader or living saint respectively.

That said I wish GW would do more xenos vs xenos conflict like this.

the_scotsman wrote:
Neophytes being absolutely identical to Brood Brothers/Guardsmen but for no reason costing 20% more.

Might want to check your maths there, fella - 55 is a lot more than a 20% more than 4 points (1275% more. I think), and even 5 points is 25% more on 4, not a 20% more...

 Galas wrote:
This short histories are being really good.

Man, what GW can do when they stop writting about bolterporn and try other more, grounded, interesting factions.

it's not a faction that makes the bolterporn, it's the content of the writing. glimpses into day to day life are always appreciated. even as a space marine fan the useal boiler plate bolter porn is dull. I admit I often find myself skimming fight scenes in the novels.

the_scotsman wrote:


...They are that. It's just that the units that do what you say are objectively terrible at that job. in terms of shooting units vs melee units, GSC have plenty of shooting or hybrid shooty/melee units, the problem they suffer from is just that those units aren't terribly efficient.

All their vehicles are shooting focused, but are BS4+ with heavy weapons so you either have to plop them down on something and not move all game, relying on the super-tough T6 4+ statline to protect you, or hit like an Ork without Dakkadakkadakka. Other units just end up having ridiculously low damage output for the points however you slice it, like the Jackal bikers and Goliath trucks. If you want to bring down a knight, you can do it with 500 points of aberrants, or 1000 points of achilles ridgerunners, assuming you don't move with any of them. GSC rely on melee only not because that's how the actual army is designed but because it's the only way you'll ever win a game.

Which is the crux of the whole situation.
Which would also be the reason i consider it wrong designed. You shouldn't need to have to relly on one option, melee in this case. GSC shouldn't be on the far end of one main damage dealing way unlike WE or Tau.

Also one would think that GW had thought about fast vehicles with heavy weapons and granted them atleast something to migitate the questionable bs.

Not Online!!! wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


...They are that. It's just that the units that do what you say are objectively terrible at that job. in terms of shooting units vs melee units, GSC have plenty of shooting or hybrid shooty/melee units, the problem they suffer from is just that those units aren't terribly efficient.

All their vehicles are shooting focused, but are BS4+ with heavy weapons so you either have to plop them down on something and not move all game, relying on the super-tough T6 4+ statline to protect you, or hit like an Ork without Dakkadakkadakka. Other units just end up having ridiculously low damage output for the points however you slice it, like the Jackal bikers and Goliath trucks. If you want to bring down a knight, you can do it with 500 points of aberrants, or 1000 points of achilles ridgerunners, assuming you don't move with any of them. GSC rely on melee only not because that's how the actual army is designed but because it's the only way you'll ever win a game.

Which is the crux of the whole situation.
Which would also be the reason i consider it wrong designed. You shouldn't need to have to relly on one option, melee in this case. GSC shouldn't be on the far end of one main damage dealing way unlike WE or Tau.

Also one would think that GW had thought about fast vehicles with heavy weapons and granted them atleast something to migitate the questionable bs.

Limiting heavy weapons on non-INFANTRY models to only firing at full ballistic skill while stationary is one of the major flaws of the 8th edition ruleset in my opinion, alongside things that are not necessarily endemic in the rules but just arise in practice, like the ranges seemingly being designed as the theoretical maximum distance the weapon might fire, and not as an "effective range" at which you have anything more than a prayer of landing a hit through the fog and confusion of a battlefield.

In a board game, movement should be encouraged in general, and static modes of play should never be encouraged as a default.

Seemingly GW remembered to sidestep this by providing several of the factions known for mobility with Assault weapons or weapons that become Assault when mounted on vehicles, like Orks, Harlequins and Drukhari. But there are still tons of units who since the start of 8th have gone from mobile platforms to stationary gun turrets or more commonly don't function at all. Seemingly, any unit that's intended to move and shoot or shoot while moving forwards to melee just doesn't work if it's saddled with a Heavy weapon.

When's the last time you saw

land speeders
sentinels
dreadnoughts with one fist and one gun
war walkers
wraithlords
Chimeras
Attack Bikes
Vypers
etc

the_scotsman wrote:
When's the last time you saw

land speeders
sentinels
dreadnoughts with one fist and one gun
war walkers
wraithlords
Chimeras
Attack Bikes
Vypers
etc

Not that it negates your point in any way and I absolutely agree with you, but apparently Wraithlords and War Walkers have seen a resurgence of late.

 mould2k wrote:
Maybe they will give Neophytes the necessary points drop...

To what?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 mould2k wrote:
Maybe they will give Neophytes the necessary points drop...

To what?

Somewhere below the price of a fully kitted Assault Centurion?

Frankly, I find the complaints of Neophytes being "too expensive" silly.

didn't CA list neophytes as 55 points? saying thats too expensive is hardly "silly"

Not really sure what to add but to agree.
I think the GSC codex was cool on release, because having some synergy certainly beats having almost none. But you quickly realise its just canned strategy - i.e, take unit X with buffbot Y in subfaction Z using stratagems K and J. If you are ever not doing this, its explicitly worse than it could be, and since its all costed on the basis you will, you have to.

It may be an illusion - but I feel the Sisters of Battle Codex has as much synergy but it feels a lot more organic rather than an explicit "use this on that".

I think the heavy rule will be scraped in 9th. Maybe it should be "for vehicles (and monsters) all heavy weapons are treated as assault" - but arguably its just a limiting factor that almost everything "new" avoids.

For GSC (and others) I think the problem is that there isn't really "flavours" of assault like there is with shooting. Acolytes, Metamorphs, Purestrains and Abberants were always going to be in much the same space. At the extremes you have things like Smashcaptains, who take down a knight but not a 30 strength brood of Termagaunts - but this is rare. The problems of assault (getting around the table, charging, overwatch) prevent this degree of specialisation. If you can't be useful in all circumstances given all these downsides, you are too niche and too bad.

I don't think metamorphs are bad now at the reduced points but its always going to be marginal on acolytes who have obsec. Put Purestrains down to 12 and its the same situation. I actually think Abs may be a trap - especially with the points drop. Once you are taking a maxed squad - especially with an abominant, couldn't you just have brought 40~ acolytes and rocksaws? Less efficient use of A Perfect Ambush perhaps - but its so all or nothing.

One negative take - while in a world of Iron Hands I'm not sure anything can be too good - the Keller at 60 was daft. Its not just that he could kill characters, he could just pop non-5~ point infantry and make most of his points back. The argument I guess is that there is no real way to keep him alive - as even if he goes in a big pack of neophytes/brood brothers, any army can wipe dozens of them off the map with ease.

Anyway, I've been negative on PA but after Ritual of the Damned I am more enthused. Tau really don't need much optionality to be a very interesting faction, even if triple tides is probably always going to reign supreme. By contrast I think GSC and Death Guard fundamentally need more units which they are not going to get.

There are a couple things you could add to GSC that might make it a more interesting play experience.

1) A real trait for Brood Brothers units. Not only do they lack traits other guard regiments get and, I believe even access to orders at this point, they have no synergy whatsoever with genestealer cult units. The big role they fill is frontline combat units that can take a punch that you can put down on the table turn 1 to keep your army from folding before the deep strike turn 2.

I think to me the ideal trait would be something like

Reign of Confusion: Units with the BROOD BROTHERS keyword are -1 to hit during the first battle round.

Simple, aids their goal as a force that takes the turn 1 punch, and fluffy as even forces that don't see the supposed PDF forces as allies would likely take them less seriously than a full blown cult ambush.

You could add some fun stratagems to them to highlight their nature as brainwashed zombies. If you gave me creative control I'd do stuff like replace the "Take Cover!" stratagem they have with a stratagem that allows them to grant an opponent Overwatch on a 4+ to hit in exchange for stopping them from making any other overwatch attacks that turn as the hypnotized soldiers fling themselves into enemy fire as cover. Stuff like that. But, the basic AM strats are serviceable and fine as-is.

2) Apply cult creeds to Ridgerunners, Goliaths and Rockgrinders with the release of the custom cult traits, and allow some of the custom cult traits to let you make a vehicle-focused army.

Some creeds would work alright with a vehicle based build - Hivecult springs to mind, but your vehicles would be hitting on 6s when they fall back. Pauper Princes would be good on rockgrinders but meaningless on the other two, and the defensive buffs on Rusted Claw and Bladed Cog would be nice but definitely pale in comparison to other factions' chapter tactics.

Custom cult traits like the following (WISHLISTING) would be amazing:

Reckless Raiders: VEHICLE models with this Cult Creed ignore the penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons, and units with this Cult Creed embarked on transports that Advanced in the movement phase are treated as having moved rather than advanced.

Improvised Destruction: Whenever a VEHICLE keyword model with this Cult Creed is destroyed, you may choose to substitute the result of the role for the Explodes rule with a 6.

Cached War Assets: Until the first time a VEHICLE or BIKER keyword unit with this Cult Creed moves or declares a shooting attack, enemy units may not target it unless it is the closest enemy unit.

Mechanized Assault: Immediately after revealing units from blips with his Cult Creed, 3 units may move as if it were the movement phase, they may not advance as part of this move.

the_scotsman wrote:
There are a couple things you could add to GSC that might make it a more interesting play experience.

1) A real trait for Brood Brothers units. Not only do they lack traits other guard regiments get and, I believe even access to orders at this point, they have no synergy whatsoever with genestealer cult units.

No, they have Orders. Per the FAQ:

‘Orders Brood Brothers units that have the Voice of Command or Tank Orders abilities (see Codex: Astra Militarum) cannot issue orders to any unit that has the Genestealer Cults Faction keyword, nor can they issue orders to units that they would not have been able to issue orders to before they gained the Brood Brothers keyword (e.g. a Brood Brothers Company Commander cannot issue orders to a Brood Brothers Ogryn unit or to a Brood Brothers Tempestus Scions unit).

What they did is remove an abused bit that allowed for Scions, Ratlings, Bullgryn/Ogryn to receive Orders from Platoon/Company Commanders since they received the "Brood Brothers" keyword. Their Orders mechanism now functions the same as the one Guard has, meaning that a Tempestus Prime is required to Order any Scions and a Platoon/Company Commander is required to Order Brood Brothers and allied Guard infantry units. Since Ratlings and Bullgryn/Ogryn have a 'locked' subfaction(Auxilia) they cannot receive Orders.


I don't know how to solve the trait for Brood Brothers bit, but I also don't really see an issue with a separate force from an entirely different army not getting a bonus "just because".

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
There are a couple things you could add to GSC that might make it a more interesting play experience.

1) A real trait for Brood Brothers units. Not only do they lack traits other guard regiments get and, I believe even access to orders at this point, they have no synergy whatsoever with genestealer cult units.

No, they have Orders. Per the FAQ:

‘Orders Brood Brothers units that have the Voice of Command or Tank Orders abilities (see Codex: Astra Militarum) cannot issue orders to any unit that has the Genestealer Cults Faction keyword, nor can they issue orders to units that they would not have been able to issue orders to before they gained the Brood Brothers keyword (e.g. a Brood Brothers Company Commander cannot issue orders to a Brood Brothers Ogryn unit or to a Brood Brothers Tempestus Scions unit).

What they did is remove an abused bit that allowed for Scions, Ratlings, Bullgryn/Ogryn to receive Orders from Platoon/Company Commanders since they received the "Brood Brothers" keyword. Their Orders mechanism now functions the same as the one Guard has, meaning that a Tempestus Prime is required to Order any Scions and a Platoon/Company Commander is required to Order Brood Brothers and allied Guard infantry units. Since Ratlings and Bullgryn/Ogryn have a 'locked' subfaction(Auxilia) they cannot receive Orders.


I don't know how to solve the trait for Brood Brothers bit, but I also don't really see an issue with a separate force from an entirely different army not getting a bonus "just because".

I mean, what is the purpose of any of these releases beyond "Just because"? The game would be objectively more tightly balanced if nobody's army had any traits, the reason they exist is to make the little army of plastic men fight more like they "feel" like they're supposed to.

The part I'm referring to losing orders is the part of the FAQ where it says "Any model with the GENESTEALER CULTS keyword" which means any unit of Brood Brothers, BB HWTs, or BB Leman Russes you field as a part of your actual genestealer cults detachment can't use orders, which kind of makes those units a big waste of space in the GSC codex.

Something like 1/5 of the units in the Genestealer Cults codex are Brood Brothers, in some cases slightly modified datasheets from codex astra militarum. In the codex, Brood Brothers are described as EITHER being hypnotized/tricked regiments of astra militarum or PDF OR being fully-fledged cult members who infiltrated a regiment, usually by being exemplary, self-sacrificing and obedient soldiers despite their minor physical deformity (which is still nowhere near the level of mutation that starts to be frowned upon as abhumanity). So from a game standpoint it makes sense that they're either totally separate detachments (Hypnotized troops) or entirely incorporated into the cult and taken as units in GSC detachments.

What I'm saying is you could give the separate detachments of hypnotized soldiers their own trait to replace the fact that they don't get a REGIMENT bonus. But honestly I'd be happier to just see the guard copy/pastes within the GSC codex given the regular <cult> traits. Just to give you a little more to work with than the 5 units you currently have.

Seriously, 5 units who aren't character buffbots who can benefit from any traits at all.

1 biker unit. Guess which trait you should take if you like this unit? Hint, it's the one that gives a bonus to BIKER models specifically and has a stratagem that only works on a weapon they can take.

1 shooting focused infantry unit that can take heavy weapons. Hmm, figure I should pick the "INFANTRY models can move and fire heavy weapons" Trait if my army is heavy on those?

3 deep striking melee units. Oh, looks like I have a trait that helps my deep strike charge rolls, and 2 traits that directly increase melee power.

What choices!

Of course, there are 5 infantry units in the codex that don't get traits, and 6 vehicle units that don't get traits, sure would be much more interesting if we could play with those. Oh look, none of them are the units currently seen in competitive GSC lists.

You can thank the people who were taking Supreme Command Detachments of Company Commanders/Tank Commanders for the removal of the interaction.

You might not get <Cult> traits on the Brood Brothers stuff but nor do Secutarii(Hoplites and Peltast) for AdMech or Scions for Guard(technically. They can get a trait if taken in a pure Scion detachment but otherwise they can't even receive Orders in a <Regiment> detachment), Bullgryn/Ogryn, Ratlings, etc.

I'm assuming it has something to do with auras interacting funny, as GSC have a decent amount of them right?

 Kanluwen wrote:
You can thank the people who were taking Supreme Command Detachments of Company Commanders/Tank Commanders for the removal of the interaction.

You might not get <Cult> traits on the Brood Brothers stuff but nor do Secutarii(Hoplites and Peltast) for AdMech or Scions for Guard(technically. They can get a trait if taken in a pure Scion detachment but otherwise they can't even receive Orders in a <Regiment&gt, Bullgryn/Ogryn, Ratlings, etc.

I'm assuming it has something to do with auras interacting funny, as GSC have a decent amount of them right?

I can't imagine that is it. A good deal of the auras already include Brood Brothers in the descriptions of them as a secondary to most Cult infantry.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
When's the last time you saw

land speeders
sentinels
dreadnoughts with one fist and one gun
war walkers
wraithlords
Chimeras
Attack Bikes
Vypers
etc

Not that it negates your point in any way and I absolutely agree with you, but apparently Wraithlords and War Walkers have seen a resurgence of late.

And you will be seeing landspeeders in new Ravenwing armies

 bullyboy wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
When's the last time you saw

land speeders
sentinels
dreadnoughts with one fist and one gun
war walkers
wraithlords
Chimeras
Attack Bikes
Vypers
etc

Not that it negates your point in any way and I absolutely agree with you, but apparently Wraithlords and War Walkers have seen a resurgence of late.

And you will be seeing landspeeders in new Ravenwing armies

Yes, but mainly because they will be able to move and shoot without penalty, which goes into his argument.

WhiteDog wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
When's the last time you saw

land speeders
sentinels
dreadnoughts with one fist and one gun
war walkers
wraithlords
Chimeras
Attack Bikes
Vypers
etc

Not that it negates your point in any way and I absolutely agree with you, but apparently Wraithlords and War Walkers have seen a resurgence of late.

And you will be seeing landspeeders in new Ravenwing armies

Yes, but mainly because they will be able to move and shoot without penalty, which goes into his argument.

Not quite. For 55 pts I can drop a unit of Deathwing Knights within 6" throw a cyclone missile launcher on for more fire support and a character with Master of Maneuver near by and I'm wrecking things.

I haven't played DA since 3rd, does anyone think a majority Deathwing force could be a thing? Knights are looking real juicy on paper.

Not the thread for DA or GSC tactics.

Theories on PA reveals at LVO? Anyone got any ideas?