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I was just wondering what you guys think are the best and worst codices in 7th edition.
Post your opinion, listing all armies, starting with the best codex and ending in the worst.

(I haven't posted my opinion as I only play with Tau and AM and face GK, CSM and Daemons.)

Well, let's see, in order:

Eldar
Tau
Daemons

My club has full representation (even Sisters!), well at least it did; everyone with the aforementioned army save for the TFG duo has shelved said armies. No one was enjoying playing with or against Eldar, Tau or Daemons. There's one guy who still runs Eldar somewhat frequently, but he's prepping for a big tourney, so we go through the motions of being slaughtered by him for the good of the club's image at said tourney. I even killed most of his army last time (and lost by 17vps), so that felt somewhat good.

I'd say Daemons are good jump below Tau/Eldar, but their ability to simply ignore much of what their opponent pays for in wargear and special rules makes them extremely annoying to fight; beatable by most armies, if you know what you're doing (unlike the previous two where you basically don't stand a chance), but still extremely hard to fight, and extremely unsatisfying. Daemons big advantage is extremely cost-effective units. Even Bloodletters; 9 points for a 5++ and a power sword is great if you're fighting powered-armour opponents. And that's the worst choice they have.

As for the worst three, that's a little more contentious, so in no particular order:

Tyranids
Dark Angels
Sisters of Battle

Some people might not count sisters, but since there's a guy with a 7k collection in our group, it's as real as anything else for me. CSM would be here as well, were it not for the Helturkey, which even post-nerf erases just about any infantry/marine army.

Tyranids only have one really viable list with flying tyrants with, what's the weapon called, twin linked devourers? Alongside 'fexes with the same loudout, the skyblight formation to fill out the rest. The local tyranid player has become so frustrated with them he's basically stopped playing; he has no desire to play the one viable netlist, and he's tried so many other lists and they all fail horribly.

Dark Angels are, like before, Marines -1; their specialty, Ravenwing and Deathwing, are overpriced for what you get, Ravenwing critically so, but Deathwing central builds can do reasonably well against other tame lists and armies. Painfully expensive army moneywise to make viable; all those terminators and land raiders you need to survive adds up fast.

Sisters, well, they took a pretty tame, infantry centric White Dwarf codex and nerfed it into the ground. They suffer from critical lack of choice, and the huge nerf to Acts of Faith has made them a very bland, boring army relying on 5th edition-esque Immolator spam with 5 sisters with a melta gun as their core army. Alright against another vehicle army, bad against everything else.

Agree with MajorStoffer, I play Tyranids but have recently changed to Dark Eldar and Orks. I have a 4-1 record against my friends Tau but I fear how much time he's had to buy models and practice while I'm at university.

I would also like to add that for the time being, Necrons are also one of the top armies in the game. I would argue they are above Daemons and either below or at the same level as Tau, as they are very resilient.

Well the top three has hardly changed.

Eldar
Tau
Daemons

Necrons, AM and Space Marines are still the second tire, with AM creeping above SM in my opinion.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Dark Angels are, like before, Marines -1; their specialty, Ravenwing and Deathwing, are overpriced for what you get, Ravenwing critically so, but Deathwing central builds can do reasonably well against other tame lists and armies. Painfully expensive army moneywise to make viable; all those terminators and land raiders you need to survive adds up fast.

Yeah, and Blood Angels are essentially SM -2. Dark Angels can at least play their speciality with legit chance since Bikes are superior to Assault Marines.
And the fact is that all Blood Angels are more expensive than any other Marine.

Dark Angels have proven themselves to be much better than Chaos Space Marines in terms of win ratio, so I'd argue that CSM is the worst army in the game if only barely above the Blood Angels. Even Tyranids have a decent power level, even if they are based around 1 or 2 lists.

I hate to be that guy in this situation, But there really is no top or bottom three to me. My towns game stores (there are 4) show off every army, save SoB, and each army has good and bad list builds. but even then, the "good and bad" only really applies if you play super competitive and give no feths about anything other then winning.

Eldar
Eldar/Dark Eldar allies (wait, not anymore.)
Imperium armies allying with each other
Everything else

What wins games in 7th Ed:
Obj Sec fast transports (Wave serpents, drop pods)

Top Tier:

Eldar



Tau
Chaos Daemons

Bottom Tier:

Blood Angels
Chaos Space Marines

I would like to argue the fact about Sisters of Battle (or whatever their new name is). They are a solid mid tier army that has the ability for a crazy alpha strike. Scouting Sisters w 4 meltas is nothing to joke about. Then you have the inquisition deathstars. Makes for a good list.

Your local meta must have a terrible SoB player, because so far in 7th i've only lost to a 3 flyrant list. Maelstrom is crazy fun for sisters players since we have so many MSU. Eldar are tough, and i've only played them once in 7th, but I still came out on top. Same goes for Tau. I haven't played demons yet, because our 2 local demons guys are taking a warmachines break.

The crusade missions are a different story, though. SoB definitely struggle a bit. But Maelstrom is fun. I can't remember the last game I played where i didn't put up at least 15 VPs. The SoB thread in the tactics forum is filled with similar player experiences for 7th, so i'm not the rare exception. Granted the current E-Codex that sisters have is somewhat limiting to list variance, but I would put SoB in the top 3rd of current strongest armies.

Playing Malestrom Missons really does even up the playing for field for most armies, Tau aren't the powerhouses they used to be since they can't just sit back and shoot to score points. Eldar are still ridiculously overpowered and I look forward to their nerf.

Yes, I'd say anyone who puts Sisters at the bottom either has not seen enough of them, or not seen enough of them played well. I win frequently in my meta with an infantry heavy/deepstrike and outflank list.

 curran12 wrote:
Yes, I'd say anyone who puts Sisters at the bottom either has not seen enough of them, or not seen enough of them played well. I win frequently in my meta with an infantry heavy/deepstrike and outflank list.

This. Sisters definitely lack choice, but might just be the best MSU army in the game (well, 2nd best after Eldar, but for the opposite reasons - Eldar for their transports, Sisters for their troops).

 Zewrath wrote:
Dark Angels have proven themselves to be much better than Chaos Space Marines in terms of win ratio, so I'd argue that CSM is the worst army in the game if only barely above the Blood Angels. Even Tyranids have a decent power level, even if they are based around 1 or 2 lists.

This as well. CSM is definitely worse than DA, and BA are worse than both. Nids are somewhere in between BA and DA, with only a few crutch units keeping them from being the worst army in the game imho. I should also mention that DA somehow managed to get 3rd overall in a local tournament with a combined arms force (GW/RW/DW).

IMHO, the armie rankings would be (minus GK and DE since I haven't faced them yet):

Top Tier: Eldar
Upper Tier: Tau, Daemons, Space Marines, Space Wolves, Astra Militarum
Mid Tier: Necrons, Orks, Dark Angels, Adeptas Sororitas (possibly Upper Tier, especially with allied support)
Bottom Tier: CSM, Tyranids
LOL Tier: BA

What is it about Dark Angels that puts them on a lower tier than vanilla Marines ?

Not sure why people are saying that Necrons are mid-tier. Has spamming Wraiths, Night Scythes, and Annihilation Barges really gone out of style?

Regarding sisters, the local guy who plays them's favoured tactic was rending heavy bolters and loads of repentia, which worked once upon a time; his collection didn't include enough immolaters to really adjust to the new codex, which punishes non-mechanized lists.

Part of my metric is how many viable builds there are for a given army; you simply can't make a bad Eldar list without trying very hard, everything but Vespid has a place in the Tau dex, and even the worst Daemon units are better than most other army's elite choices. Dark Angels, yeah, Deathwing do alright, everything else they do flails and dies, though in truth Blood Angels are worse than them at present by virtue of being outdated, but as every BA player locally is currently not playing them, it totally slipped my mind.

CSM, however, certainly have more effective options than Dark Angels; the heldrake really is amazing still, but having witnessed and been on the receiving end of a sorcerer-heavy 1ksons list, the locally named "Defiler Cheese," (really, 6 Defilers in a double-CAD is actually quite frightening to some armies, just not something you're going to see very often, who owns 6 of the damned things?), and a rather min-maxed Death Guard list, Chaos has a number of good choice beyond (though always including) the heldrake, certainly moreso than DA can claim. The only time DA remotely concern me is when the other guy deploys virtually nothing on the table; drop pods and Death Wing Assault go together rather nicely. Granted, good Chaos lists aren't even remotely fluffy most of the time, whereas DA usually are, but the gakky codex design leading to these two opposites is another discussion entirely.

How does a 1ksons list for Chaos work these days?

Nvs wrote:
How does a 1ksons list for Chaos work these days?

Great if you don't use 1ksons themselves much. The local guy has his two troops in Rhinos ferrying around Ahriman and another Lvl3 sorcerer; you basically have a 2nd shooting phase if built correctly.

We don't talk about the Sons or how about that particular boat left a long time ago. Just don't buy those models unless you REALLY REAALLLY love them. I played with them back when the codex first dropped and I wish I never spent the money.

I love all the BA hate in this thread... makes me a sad panda. We areent doing well but we can sure as hell hold our own. Obsec fast transport in an msu squad for 130 points is a razorback, 5 ASM's, 1 with melta. 6 of these makes it less than half a 2k list, and has descent survivability.

Nvs wrote:
How does a 1ksons list for Chaos work these days?

they make great basic marine models and a sarge with a power weapon, cos as 1ksons... no, just no

What made Tau good in 6th were:
a) Allies
b) Buffmander with Riptide
c) Terrain was less forgiving to charging units

both options are a no-go now. This took a toll on Tau effectiveness. I wouldn't put it among the top 3 anymore.

I agree, we are no longer top three. 7th changes broke the most OP tactics employed by the tau, leaving us with "just" two guns that are too good (IA for riptides and HYMP for broadsides) and a relatively large swat of solid units (FW, crisis suits, kroot, hammerheads, skyray, piranhas, pathfinders, non-cheese broadsides/riptide. all are respectful choices.)
We are still doing strong, still high tier, just not AS high.



I'd rate things currently as: (the race list is both as stand alone and as main faction with a single "ally", with a notable exception in IoM)

Top dogs: Eldar, Multi-codex IoM (as in, more than 2 sources), Daemons

High Tier: C:SM,Tau, Necrons, SW, IK

Mid Tier: Nids, SoB, Orks, CSM, IG, GK, Inqusition

Low Tier: DA, BA

The outsiders (useful allies, pointless as standalones): LotD, Scions, assassins,

The Unknown: DE (they are just coming out, we got no way of knowing what will become of them competitively yet.)

 adamsouza wrote:
What is it about Dark Angels that puts them on a lower tier than vanilla Marines ?

They just don't do anything particularly well and lack options. DW are overcosted and the overabundance of AP2 these days cuts them down quickly. Greenwing are bland and outclassed by C:SM equivalents - the only reason I can see someone taking them would be for Shield Generators, Dakkabanner LRs and 4++ Azrael blobs perhaps. RW are the best of the Codex due to their mobility and options, but unfortunately White Scars outclass them IMHO, and don't even have to rely on Bikes to kick ass.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Not sure why people are saying that Necrons are mid-tier. Has spamming Wraiths, Night Scythes, and Annihilation Barges really gone out of style?

No, but other armies have gotten good enough that it's easier to deal with now.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
I love all the BA hate in this thread... makes me a sad panda. We areent doing well but we can sure as hell hold our own. Obsec fast transport in an msu squad for 130 points is a razorback, 5 ASM's, 1 with melta. 6 of these makes it less than half a 2k list, and has descent survivability.

They can win, but they're far and away the absolute worst army in the game simply because they just cost too much, they rely on assault when shooting has become much more reliable, and their assault units aren't even all that good (eg, against a real assault unit or assault army like Daemons, you're not going to have anything to deal with them without wasting a disproportionate amount of points). You're basically handicapping yourself by playing BA.

A lot of people seem to be confusing a realistic analysis of BA and DA to be hatred. I don't think that could be any more wrong. A lot of people really like these armies, but their flaws are very glaring.

Top tier:
Eldar, Daemons, Space Marines with friends.

Not quite top tier:
Tau, Necrons, Space Marines without Friends, CSM with Friends, SW with Friends, GK with Friends, IG with clever Friends

Middle of the pack:
CSM, IG, DA, Nids, SW, GK

Dirt tier:
BA, Orks

N/A:
Dark Eldar (new codex), SoB (are just a myth).

Knights, Inquisition, LoTD etc are among the 'Friends' options. Useless on their own.


With the exception of Orks and BA (hopefully not for much longer) balance between books is fairly decent. Unfortunately most of those books are very limited in options if they want to live up to their potential.

I didn't expect that many of you to put Tau as being in the top 3 armies, especially with all of the IoM noobiness

Anyway, my opponents have been arguing so I'd like your opinions; which codex is better, CSM or GK? I'm leaning more towards GK, but what do you guys think?

I personally have had a ton of success with the new GK. I am 5-0 at the moment. Played CSM the other day. We played maelstrom missions... I had Gate of infinity and invisibility on my two HQ units. So I was deep striking around the table on objectives.... ended the game 12 to 5. Dreadknights are amazing!

But lets be honest... dice rolls can make or break any strategy.

I also don't see the insistence that Orks are a low-end faction; while it's true their old builds got nerfed, unlike Nids, and it's looking like DE, they weren't nerfed across the board. Nob bikers and big blobs of boyz got nerfed, as did cybork, but just about everything else either got better or cheaper.

There's a few local Ork players, they're not astounding tacticians for the most part, but they've been able the beat the cheesiest, most exploitative, manipulative of the TFGs (it was Orks, actually, who knocked the best player in our club out of a recent tourney). They can do good stuff, provided you aren't still trying to run Green Tide or Nob Bikers, I'd certainly put them above Nids; still restrictive in what's viable, but can do well with more than one build.

Top Tier:
Eldar
Daemons
Necrons
Space Marines

Mid Tier:
Tau
Space Wolves
Grey Knights
Chaos Space Marines
Astra Militarum
Orks

Low Tier:
Tyranids
Dark Eldar
Blood Angels


Low Tier armies, in my opinion, aren't necessarily the worst, they just aren't as "Point-n-click, I win" type armies. They require more thought and strategy than other others to work as effectively. Blood Angels are just bad off right now as a whole. >.<