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2020/01/11 21:29:29
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
The big Mek on bike is indeed legends and most assuredly unusable in most events, tournaments, and probably frowned upon anything except narrative games...
Morkanaut can be expensive plus slow and wazbom can be a bit tricky to use..
The most most common is basic big Mek w kff but there is also the mega armor big Mek w kff and most people forget about the Meka dread w kff which is a decent unit that is fairly survivable the first turn with its 3+/5++/4+++..... toughness 7 and 16 wounds w a decent sized foot print especially if based for Kff...plus it has a nice 4+ shooting platform for its killkannon...
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/01/11 21:35:01
2020/01/11 23:33:18
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
gungo wrote: The big Mek on bike is indeed legends and most assuredly unusable in most events, tournaments, and probably frowned upon anything except narrative games...
Morkanaut can be expensive plus slow and wazbom can be a bit tricky to use..
The most most common is basic big Mek w kff but there is also the mega armor big Mek w kff and most people forget about the Meka dread w kff which is a decent unit that is fairly survivable the first turn with its 3+/5++/4+++..... toughness 7 and 16 wounds w a decent sized foot print especially if based for Kff...plus it has a nice 4+ shooting platform for its killkannon...
Both foot meks are bad for the army, since all of the buggies will drive out of their range T1. In my last game I just sat the KFF mek on an objective because I had nothing else to do for him, while a more mobile unit could have kept up (yay for Death Skulls objective secured on him!).
The Morkanaut is just as fast as a Meka Dread. Not to mention that it doesn't actually have a 4+++ save, so in durability they are about equal (T8 18W on the naut). You pay 275 for the Meka Dread and 310 for the naut, so for the 35 extra points you get the kustom-mega zappa (36" range!), a KMB, two rokkits and four big shootas instead of a single killkannon with +1 to hit. So really, either model is fine.
However, if someone outside of a prized event complains about a big mek on a bike, but is fine with a modeled for advantage meka-dread, you should definitely zog him in the nuts and never play that person ever again.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/01/12 00:55:27
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
I know Lootas are not the super stars they once were but I had my first experience with a full unit. Went a little too ork and got a little too invested and excited on Dakka.
Got 45 shots on the first set, re-roll ones, exploding 5 and 6s, then 30 on shooting again.
That's a lot of Str 7 flying over the battlefield. I see why Lootas enjoy themselves.
Also third game with a Morkanaut in a row where the only time damage was done to it was myself. It adds up quick (usually around 3-5 wounds). I know it's nothing special with a t8, 5 invul but I'm just finding that funny.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/12 04:49:29
2020/01/12 05:58:43
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Played 2000 points vs CWE with my mech / buggy list, new eternal war missions Four Pillars.
Wow, mech is just way more fun than slogging.
I am straight up in love with my Supa Skorcha against Eldar. Netted 2 VPs from just erasing 2 ranger squads off an objective, allowing me to hold more twice.
Wave serpents suck. He rolled hot and his banshee Serpent died on the final thing I had to deal with it in shooting. My SSAG had to choose between that, 10 reapers, and a CHE... I shot twice at the reapers and killed 2 lol. Woof.
It almost went bad from there, but some luck let me turn it around.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/12 11:24:03
2020/01/12 11:35:03
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
CWE is one of my most common opponents, and boy do I agree with Tulun that wave serpents are annoying. They're really durable and after T1/2 are mostly used to movement block and charge things that don't want to be in CC. Shooting them sucks but I will say that nobz/MANZ chew those up nicely if need be... I also hate the hemlock with a burning passion since it basically doesn't degrade so if your shooting ends up being less effective than it should've been then at some point you question if it's worth it to keep pelting that knowing it might not die that turn..
Generally speaking the SSAG is great against CWE, since you can just more dakka him and then shoot twice, it's CP intensive but usually really effective. Traktor kannons do good work (so do smasha guns, considering their points), the wazbom blastajet with "long, uncontrolled bursts" is great. Dakkajets aren't great AT, so while they're great against eldar footsloggers they won't do the job you want here.. A morkanaut with "more dakka" is also pretty reliable AT, even against flyers..
2020/01/12 11:45:06
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
It sort of depends what the rest of your army is I guess, wave serpents can be killed in CC so they should be a lower priority with your shooting unless one of them needs to die for whatever reason (like it's blocking you or holding an objective). The hemlock is anti-elite/AT so it might be overkill on a lot of your stuff due to super high strength but low amount of shots. Are the razorwings the biggest threat to you?
And a SSAG without more dakka is still a big threat, with a very orky variance in effectiveness. Just the amount of shots with smasha guns that can still hit and traktor kannons should help you down flyers regardless of modifiers and I can't recommend the Wazbom with long, uncontrolled bursts enough. That thing will hit like a truck
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: I was referring to the turbo-boostas stratagem which allows them to advance 28". [...]
You do? What stratagems are you using? Because I'm constantly flipping through my deck and think "nah" to myself on most of them.
The turbo-boostas strat is effectively 3CP though and as I've alluded to earlier I'm not completely sold on it since I think warbikers are too expensive tat I want to buff them (YMMV). I'm just saying that if you're playing ES (who are still a really good clan) then using your deffkoptas with that kultur is a pretty decent move IMO, especially since you can make them insanely fast for just 1CP.
Regarding strats and CPs, I'm always finding a use for some combination (if not all) of these every round: Get stuck In, Orkz is never beaten, Long, uncontrolled bursts, More dakka, Rammin' speed, Kustom ammo, Loot It, Billowing exhaust clouds, Warphead..
Rammin' speed is often used to try and delete the last few wounds on something I don't want to fight in CC, get stuck in ladz is either offensively or just to get a "extra move", I like warphead though I know many will just say to get another psyker but I feel like the rest are pretty self explanatory. I think orks have a lot of great strats and lose quite a bit of steam when we run out of CP so I'm just surprised your opinion is so divergent on that..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/12 12:09:17
2020/01/12 12:45:27
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Jidmah, I think I might play Death Skulls on my Buggies next game after listening to you this long, thanks
Ratius wrote: Any advise for fighting Eldar flyers?
Im facing a list next week with 3 razorwings, a hemlock and 3 wave serpents =/
My shooting elements are 6 smasha guns, 14 lootas, 15 tank bustas, 2 dakkajets (and 4 weirdboys for some smite spamming).
SSAG Big Mek, he is in the special detachment to get the SSAG so remember you can shoot twice with either the kulture bonus for bad moons or the detachment bonus, the big one you don't want him blocking is the exploding 5s strat. But if I were you I would be fielding at least a SSAG and a second big mek with a SAG (preferably 2) so you can just hose down those planes from long distance. I had a similar game against a flying eldar list. My SSAG turn 1 down 2 of his flyers using just his shoot twice detachment bonus and exploding 5s, he had used Vect on my lootas to keep them from shooting twice (Rolled a 6 too, like a jerk ) So turn 1 I cut his airforce off at the knees and even my lootas managed to severely damage another flyer which they then killed turn 2. The game ended top of turn 2 because my army had cleared hte skies for all intents and purposes. You can always back them up with the Traktor Kannons but I personally don't like them that much.
IG88 wrote: Just had a game vs DE with Ork speed freaks, various buggies, biker boss, bogs in trukks, some bikes, Koptas. What fun, the army is a blast to play. There is a lot of complaining on here but I have to say after playing admech and tau for a year this army is more fun and fairly deadly. There just random which is why I guess they might not always be reliable at tournies. For a fun evening game though orks can’t be beat.
I love my Scrapjets and my Wagonz but they are not competitive right now. In friendly games you can make out like a bandit because a lot of players hear the word "Ork" and bring almost nothing but anti-infantry lists to fight you. The problem with "Random" is that its never a good random. I mean that in the traditional way orkz were random. Look at the SAG in 7th edition as an example. 1 really good result (double 6) and a plethora of bad results which can severely limit your damage or a couple which kill your character or your own forces. So 1 good and about 5 bad.
But to get back to the original point, mek lists and speed freak lists are absolutely fun and good in friendly games, go take that into a competitive game or a tournament game and you will be leaving turn 2.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/12 14:25:13
Dendarien wrote: What kind of mech lists are you running Jidmah? Looking to play something that isn't 120+ models.
Currently I'm running deff skulls vehicles, with SJD, scrapjet, 2x KBB, wartrike, warboss on warbike and warbikers as core. I'm still experimenting with the rest, but it's blast to play. I have been trying planes, koptas, trukks and battlewagons so far in addition. I don't have the models, but more buggies might definitely be an option. I'm really unsure how powerful the army is, as it feels like most of my opponents seem to be overwhelmed when playing against it, struggling to handle all the fast units with good shooting and all their tested and proven anti-ork strategies failing. The good: - 2x anti-tank buggies. I'm running both scrap jet and SJD. I feel like the SJD is better due to more AP and damage re-rolls, but until now I played all but one of my games against marines where the scrap jet struggles due to only having AP-2. Scrapjet melee rarely matters as it's the first vehicle to die. - 2x KBB - these guys are basically swiss army knives. Their primary job is to score/deny VP and plonk wounds off light vehicles or double wound infantry. When needed the can charge vehicles to shut them off or characters in hopes of triggering the spiked ram. - 1x 12 warbikers with kult of speed secialist detachment. The large bases deny lots of area and charging T1 puts most enemies in panic mode, otherwise use them just like boyz. If you can tag/arrest more units use the 2d6 consolidate stratagem, but carefully weigh whether you need it - you often don't. They also get around many of the defense mechanisms that work against boyz, and many anti-infantry close combat profiles struggle getting through the T5/4+/2W profile. For me, a killsaw on the nob has always made its points back so far. - Morkanaut. With so many vehicles shooting so many dangerous profiles, it often gets to survive till T3 and the big kustom zappa can do quite some work on enemy vehicles until then. It also provides a KFF, which is all but mandatory in a buggy list. Make sure to shoot the KMB first to minimize mortal wounds taken. If it ever gets into combat, it's awesome at slaughtering primaris. If you are running a SSAG anyways, make sure to put in the same detachment so you can shoot the naut twice. - SSAG, warboss on bike with killaklaw work just as good as in any list. - 5 Koptas work surprisingly well - reserve them to force your opponent to keep his screens against deep strike up, but keep them near your warbikers or warboss to mitigate moral issues. More often than not, people don't give them the time of day as long as any warbikers or buggies remain alive. Shoot vehicles and charge infantry you can expect to wipe out. Use long uncontrolled bursts and more dakka against flying units - Gretchin - hide them, grab objectives. I have won most of my games with nothing but gretchin left, but my enemies usually lack the mobility and firepower to take down 60 gretchin when I'm done with them. The meh: - Battlewagons and bonekrushas work well, but they are too expensive when you add passengers. In addition, melee units don't synergize well with the rest of the buggies. You are better of with just running more buggies/mek guns/planes. - Foot mek. You need the KFF to survive alpha strikes, but once the army starts moving, he gets left in the dust. - Wartrike. You kind of need the aura for your warbiker mob and the killa jets is a pretty awesome weapon to have for deff skulls, but he usually doesn't make back his points. If he weren't filling an HQ slot, I would probably drop him. I tried running it with the fix uppers relic, but repairs don't matter a lot, vehicles are pretty binary alive or dead, even the naut. - Burna bommer. The idea was to have the bommers blow a hole into screens during its movement phase. That actually did work really well, but buggies don't care all that much about charging. Once they have dropped the bombs, they turns into a dakkajet lite, but their shooting doesn't actually provide something the buggy list needs. The ugly: - Boyz are completely wasted here. The army thrives on target saturation, making most S5 and below weapons lacking for targets. Bringing boyz negates that advantage. The only thing worse is a unit of trukk boyz, they are more expensive than a unit of gretchin plus a buggy. - Pain boy on bike has proven multiple times to be a waste of time. Saving a biker or two is not worth spending ~100 points. - Foot characters of any kind force you to buy them a transport with units inside you don't actually want/need. In addition, the buggy army is really light on close combat units, so Thrakka, banner nob or Mad Doc don't really have support when diving into the enemy army. - Boomdakka Snazzwagon. I really gave it a chance, twice even. However, it's just a KBB with worse guns that gets even worse when advancing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flandarz wrote: As a bonus for DS Mechanized lists: KFFs are less required as you get an inherent 6++.
Honestly, I disagree with that. Even having a 5++ just for one turn is worth spending 75 points on a mek that goes to sit on an objective and pick his nose afterwards. Any kind of anti-tank tears right trough buggies, every single safe matters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PiñaColada wrote: The turbo-boostas strat is effectively 3CP though and as I've alluded to earlier I'm not completely sold on it since I think warbikers are too expensive tat I want to buff them (YMMV).
I'm basically using kult of speed warbikers to prevent my enemy from moving for 1-2 turns. Every time I've done it, it has won me the game so far. Let's see how well that works when my opponents get used to it It also serves to protect the bikers, so I'm saving myself the points for exhaust cloud.
Regarding strats and CPs, I'm always finding a use for some combination (if not all) of these every round: Get stuck In, Orkz is never beaten, Long, uncontrolled bursts, More dakka, Rammin' speed, Kustom ammo, Loot It, Billowing exhaust clouds, Warphead.
Rammin' speed is often used to try and delete the last few wounds on something I don't want to fight in CC, get stuck in ladz is either offensively or just to get a "extra move", I like warphead though I know many will just say to get another psyker but I feel like the rest are pretty self explanatory. I think orks have a lot of great strats and lose quite a bit of steam when we run out of CP so I'm just surprised your opinion is so divergent on that..
Huh, I understand. Thing is, I'm not running any non-gretchin infantry anymore, so most of those stratagems are out. Ramming speed, uncontrolled bursts and kustom ammo are what I'm using regularly, but in some games I simply don't need them, because there is no situation where I need the 3d6 charge or because my opponent doesn't have any fliers that aren't getting shot to pieces anyways. Moar dakka feels wasted on almost everything but a naut, unless I need to advance and shoot somewhere. Lastly, exhaust cloud usually doesn't do enough for buggies, and I aim to have my warbikers in combat until they dies. I also rarely need to re-roll dice for CP due to running deff skulls.
In general, I'm probably too careful with spending my CP, but so far it has worked well for me.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/01/12 16:10:37
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/01/12 16:28:25
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
I see that the Meka Dread was mentioned as another sauce for a KFF, but has no one ever used it with a mega charga for a first turn charge? Move double, then charge, even faster if it is Evil Sunz.
2020/01/12 16:54:42
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
I am thinking of puting my mek guns on round bases without additional crew since they are not having any meaning without making the footprint larger. What do you think of this? What base size do you recommend?
2020/01/12 17:15:25
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Elfric wrote: I see that the Meka Dread was mentioned as another sauce for a KFF, but has no one ever used it with a mega charga for a first turn charge? Move double, then charge, even faster if it is Evil Sunz.
IMO, it's melee stats aren't impressive enough for its cost.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/01/12 17:15:54
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Jidmah wrote:
I'm basically using kult of speed warbikers to prevent my enemy from moving for 1-2 turns. Every time I've done it, it has won me the game so far. Let's see how well that works when my opponents get used to it It also serves to protect the bikers, so I'm saving myself the points for exhaust cloud.
Huh, I understand. Thing is, I'm not running any non-gretchin infantry anymore, so most of those stratagems are out. Ramming speed, uncontrolled bursts and kustom ammo are what I'm using regularly, but in some games I simply don't need them, because there is no situation where I need the 3d6 charge or because my opponent doesn't have any fliers that aren't getting shot to pieces anyways. Moar dakka feels wasted on almost everything but a naut, unless I need to advance and shoot somewhere. Lastly, exhaust cloud usually doesn't do enough for buggies, and I aim to have my warbikers in combat until they dies. I also rarely need to re-roll dice for CP due to running deff skulls.
In general, I'm probably too careful with spending my CP, but so far it has worked well for me.
I'm either facing strong CC armies or armies where most stuff can fly, so the whole tripointing stuff with bikes is a lot less tempting then, but hey if it works then that's great. I also only really ever play grot infantry since I'm mechanised and boyz suck in squads of 10-12. But I do often find myself adding in a squad of nobz or manz since I find it more enjoyable to have a few things that want to be activated in the fight phase as well. At that point both get stuck in ladz and counter offensive strats are quite useful.
In non-torunament games I often just skip the SSAG and take no more than a couple of mek guns. The SSAG is one of those units that you can invest all the CP in the world in and either they're worth it tenfold or they do nothing. Those games where he kills 800 points of stuff feel unfair to both myself and my opponent since it overperformed by a crazy margin meaning my opponent has basically zero chance and I don't even have to play tactically anymore. Or he just burns through CP and does nothing, either way it becomes a bit static from a tactical PoV. He's still worth it, just like the mek guns but I feel like I'm having more fun trying out and using the peripheral stuff in our codex and not the stuff that should in all likelyhood get points adjusted way north..
Nora wrote:I am thinking of puting my mek guns on round bases without additional crew since they are not having any meaning without making the footprint larger. What do you think of this? What base size do you recommend?
I know some people have put them on 80mm rounds, the footprint will be slightly smaller than the actual guns and krew would end up but I think several of the large tournaments allow it.. 100mms would be too big so perhaps 90mm if you could find them and want it to be as close as possible? But GW sells both 80s and 100s, 80s are probably your best bet then.
It's way less of a hassle if you own a lot of mek guns but if you play in tournaments I'd ask around before you start buying bases in bulk..
2020/01/12 17:16:27
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Nora wrote: I am thinking of puting my mek guns on round bases without additional crew since they are not having any meaning without making the footprint larger. What do you think of this? What base size do you recommend?
Keep in mind that altering base size makes your models illegal for ITC.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PiñaColada wrote: In non-torunament games I often just skip the SSAG and take no more than a couple of mek guns. The SSAG is one of those units that you can invest all the CP in the world in and either they're worth it tenfold or they do nothing. Those games where he kills 800 points of stuff feel unfair to both myself and my opponent since it overperformed by a crazy margin meaning my opponent has basically zero chance and I don't even have to play tactically anymore. Or he just burns through CP and does nothing, either way it becomes a bit static from a tactical PoV. He's still worth it, just like the mek guns but I feel like I'm having more fun trying out and using the peripheral stuff in our codex and not the stuff that should in all likelyhood get points adjusted way north..
I agree - I prefer using stratagems on the morkanaut, as its output is more reliable, which goes in both directions. Also opponents seem to be more OK with a giant robot blasting half their army than a single meks with a gun powered by lucky dice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/12 17:19:30
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/01/12 17:21:04
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Nora wrote: I am thinking of puting my mek guns on round bases without additional crew since they are not having any meaning without making the footprint larger. What do you think of this? What base size do you recommend?
Casual area you should be fine. On competive play could get called for modeling for advantage as crew models are negative to gun even beyond base size.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2020/01/12 17:30:31
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Nora wrote: I am thinking of puting my mek guns on round bases without additional crew since they are not having any meaning without making the footprint larger. What do you think of this? What base size do you recommend?
Casual area you should be fine. On competive play could get called for modeling for advantage as crew models are negative to gun even beyond base size.
thanks for reply.
How so negative beyond base size?
2020/01/12 17:39:31
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Los. Enemy can draw los to crew getting to shoot at it while gun has special rule you can't shoot from crew(like you could without datasheet specifically saying no).
Difference isn't big so won't come up often so generally you should be ok. Lack of models is bigger issue related to foot print but base solves that. But maybe check tournament in advance
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2020/01/12 17:45:18
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
generally if youre doing any tournaments i'd avoid putting them on a base.
But i wager if you just used a base thats wide enough for all the crew to stand on and just put the crew on the same base, since nothing ever removes them short of the whole gun blowing up, you probably wouldnt have any complaints.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2020/01/12 17:59:55
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Yeah, you'd need to put 5-6 krew on the same base as the actual gun. That's also why I kept harping on about 80's,90's and 100mm bases. 90mm are probably just right but I don't know if that size exists, 80mm are a bit too small IIRC and 100mm would be too big. Both could (though more likely the 80mm) be called out for modelling for advantage..
But if it's big enough to put the gun and all krew on you should be fine and very few people would complain about it. Again, check with TOs if you're thinking about using it for tournaments but bases were okay'ed on mek gunz at both adepticon & bay area open (if memory serves) last year but that was before ITC base size charts for 40k
2020/01/12 18:40:09
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
PiñaColada wrote: CWE is one of my most common opponents, and boy do I agree with Tulun that wave serpents are annoying. They're really durable and after T1/2 are mostly used to movement block and charge things that don't want to be in CC. Shooting them sucks but I will say that nobz/MANZ chew those up nicely if need be... I also hate the hemlock with a burning passion since it basically doesn't degrade so if your shooting ends up being less effective than it should've been then at some point you question if it's worth it to keep pelting that knowing it might not die that turn..
Generally speaking the SSAG is great against CWE, since you can just more dakka him and then shoot twice, it's CP intensive but usually really effective. Traktor kannons do good work (so do smasha guns, considering their points), the wazbom blastajet with "long, uncontrolled bursts" is great. Dakkajets aren't great AT, so while they're great against eldar footsloggers they won't do the job you want here.. A morkanaut with "more dakka" is also pretty reliable AT, even against flyers..
I love MANz, but I am not really sure how to use them in this matchup. I was thinking of adding a second Big Trakk w/ Supa skorcha and 6 Big Choppa Nobs for fun.
He can easily keep 2 CP in reserve for when they charge to make them hit their victims on 5s. You'd be shocked how poorly 30 or 40 MANz attacks do when they hit on 5s (especially with Dd3). Da Jump is so much harder to use if they are setting themselves up with Forewarned, so you might be forced to slog them, and they are pretty slow.
Wave Serpents seem pretty darn squishy in CC though, I agree. But if the payload inside is a unit that can basically tag as much as your army as it wants because it can ignore Overwatch, you often have no choice but to shoot it down.
It makes me want to field more Shokk Jump Dragstas, though, in case I need my SAGs on other prime targets. I got it to teleport to his backline where a bunch of Deff Dreads dropped down too, which caused a major disruption.
I gotta say, I loved the SJD, Megatrakk, and KBB in this particular matchup and I think the buggy style list is going to start making a splash.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/12 18:43:32
2020/01/12 19:12:49
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Dendarien wrote: What kind of mech lists are you running Jidmah? Looking to play something that isn't 120+ models.
Currently I'm running deff skulls vehicles, with SJD, scrapjet, 2x KBB, wartrike, warboss on warbike and warbikers as core. I'm still experimenting with the rest, but it's blast to play. I have been trying planes, koptas, trukks and battlewagons so far in addition. I don't have the models, but more buggies might definitely be an option.
I'm really unsure how powerful the army is, as it feels like most of my opponents seem to be overwhelmed when playing against it, struggling to handle all the fast units with good shooting and all their tested and proven anti-ork strategies failing.
The good:
- 2x anti-tank buggies. I'm running both scrap jet and SJD. I feel like the SJD is better due to more AP and damage re-rolls, but until now I played all but one of my games against marines where the scrap jet struggles due to only having AP-2. Scrapjet melee rarely matters as it's the first vehicle to die.
- 2x KBB - these guys are basically swiss army knives. Their primary job is to score/deny VP and plonk wounds off light vehicles or double wound infantry. When needed the can charge vehicles to shut them off or characters in hopes of triggering the spiked ram.
- 1x 12 warbikers with kult of speed secialist detachment. The large bases deny lots of area and charging T1 puts most enemies in panic mode, otherwise use them just like boyz. If you can tag/arrest more units use the 2d6 consolidate stratagem, but carefully weigh whether you need it - you often don't. They also get around many of the defense mechanisms that work against boyz, and many anti-infantry close combat profiles struggle getting through the T5/4+/2W profile. For me, a killsaw on the nob has always made its points back so far.
- Morkanaut. With so many vehicles shooting so many dangerous profiles, it often gets to survive till T3 and the big kustom zappa can do quite some work on enemy vehicles until then. It also provides a KFF, which is all but mandatory in a buggy list. Make sure to shoot the KMB first to minimize mortal wounds taken. If it ever gets into combat, it's awesome at slaughtering primaris. If you are running a SSAG anyways, make sure to put in the same detachment so you can shoot the naut twice.
- SSAG, warboss on bike with killaklaw work just as good as in any list.
- 5 Koptas work surprisingly well - reserve them to force your opponent to keep his screens against deep strike up, but keep them near your warbikers or warboss to mitigate moral issues. More often than not, people don't give them the time of day as long as any warbikers or buggies remain alive. Shoot vehicles and charge infantry you can expect to wipe out. Use long uncontrolled bursts and more dakka against flying units
- Gretchin - hide them, grab objectives. I have won most of my games with nothing but gretchin left, but my enemies usually lack the mobility and firepower to take down 60 gretchin when I'm done with them.
The meh:
- Battlewagons and bonekrushas work well, but they are too expensive when you add passengers. In addition, melee units don't synergize well with the rest of the buggies. You are better of with just running more buggies/mek guns/planes.
- Foot mek. You need the KFF to survive alpha strikes, but once the army starts moving, he gets left in the dust.
- Wartrike. You kind of need the aura for your warbiker mob and the killa jets is a pretty awesome weapon to have for deff skulls, but he usually doesn't make back his points. If he weren't filling an HQ slot, I would probably drop him. I tried running it with the fix uppers relic, but repairs don't matter a lot, vehicles are pretty binary alive or dead, even the naut.
- Burna bommer. The idea was to have the bommers blow a hole into screens during its movement phase. That actually did work really well, but buggies don't care all that much about charging. Once they have dropped the bombs, they turns into a dakkajet lite, but their shooting doesn't actually provide something the buggy list needs.
The ugly:
- Boyz are completely wasted here. The army thrives on target saturation, making most S5 and below weapons lacking for targets. Bringing boyz negates that advantage. The only thing worse is a unit of trukk boyz, they are more expensive than a unit of gretchin plus a buggy.
- Pain boy on bike has proven multiple times to be a waste of time. Saving a biker or two is not worth spending ~100 points.
- Foot characters of any kind force you to buy them a transport with units inside you don't actually want/need. In addition, the buggy army is really light on close combat units, so Thrakka, banner nob or Mad Doc don't really have support when diving into the enemy army.
- Boomdakka Snazzwagon. I really gave it a chance, twice even. However, it's just a KBB with worse guns that gets even worse when advancing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flandarz wrote: As a bonus for DS Mechanized lists: KFFs are less required as you get an inherent 6++.
Honestly, I disagree with that. Even having a 5++ just for one turn is worth spending 75 points on a mek that goes to sit on an objective and pick his nose afterwards. Any kind of anti-tank tears right trough buggies, every single safe matters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PiñaColada wrote: The turbo-boostas strat is effectively 3CP though and as I've alluded to earlier I'm not completely sold on it since I think warbikers are too expensive tat I want to buff them (YMMV).
I'm basically using kult of speed warbikers to prevent my enemy from moving for 1-2 turns. Every time I've done it, it has won me the game so far. Let's see how well that works when my opponents get used to it It also serves to protect the bikers, so I'm saving myself the points for exhaust cloud.
Regarding strats and CPs, I'm always finding a use for some combination (if not all) of these every round: Get stuck In, Orkz is never beaten, Long, uncontrolled bursts, More dakka, Rammin' speed, Kustom ammo, Loot It, Billowing exhaust clouds, Warphead.
Rammin' speed is often used to try and delete the last few wounds on something I don't want to fight in CC, get stuck in ladz is either offensively or just to get a "extra move", I like warphead though I know many will just say to get another psyker but I feel like the rest are pretty self explanatory. I think orks have a lot of great strats and lose quite a bit of steam when we run out of CP so I'm just surprised your opinion is so divergent on that..
Huh, I understand. Thing is, I'm not running any non-gretchin infantry anymore, so most of those stratagems are out. Ramming speed, uncontrolled bursts and kustom ammo are what I'm using regularly, but in some games I simply don't need them, because there is no situation where I need the 3d6 charge or because my opponent doesn't have any fliers that aren't getting shot to pieces anyways. Moar dakka feels wasted on almost everything but a naut, unless I need to advance and shoot somewhere. Lastly, exhaust cloud usually doesn't do enough for buggies, and I aim to have my warbikers in combat until they dies. I also rarely need to re-roll dice for CP due to running deff skulls.
In general, I'm probably too careful with spending my CP, but so far it has worked well for me.
Jid how do you achieve a first turn charge? Specialist detachment and advance strat?
@Jid: oh, I'd still include a foot KFF for better T1 protection. I just don't think you need to worry as much about the more mobile KFF options with Deathskullz (or Da Jumping the foot Mek). And, of course, this is dependent on whether or not your opponent is cool with the weird place the KFF Mek is at right now. I dunno if I'd spend like 120 pts on the MA Mek, but the 75 pt version is definitely good to have.
2020/01/12 20:02:51
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Jidmah wrote: - Boomdakka Snazzwagon. I really gave it a chance, twice even. However, it's just a KBB with worse guns that gets even worse when advancing.
Curse you Jid! I have literally just started painting one!
I suppose I could run it as another Buggy, an extra KBB perhaps?
I like the inherent -1 to hit and 4+ explosion, does it have ANY play? If I just charge it up-field and expect nothing, will I potentially be pleasantly surprised?
Agreed on all of your other points in your long post (that I dare not quote) though I feel that there is a place for Boyz and Warbikes potentially however they no doubt fulfil the same role. We are kind of pigeonholed into taking Weirdboys (for MW output) so I always figure one or two Boyz squads to jump up and scare opponents can be well utilised, the problem is that they eat into points for other stuff and, as you have said, give the opponent a perfect target for their anti-chaff weaponry.
2020/01/12 20:10:38
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Looking at the Snazzwagon, I'd say the primary use would be to roll up within 3" to a unit, unload everything into it, and then "dare" them to attack you back. The gunz on the Snazzwagon are pretty lackluster, but it's got a decent Grenade and it's not a unit that's easy to take out at range, nor desirable to take out in CC. Unfortunately, it's also very easy to ignore because it's not as threatening as pretty much anything else in your army. And it also puts you at risk if your opponent gets first go, since it explodes easily.
Orks 5000p 
) So turn 1 I cut his airforce off at the knees and even my lootas managed to severely damage another flyer which they then killed turn 2. The game ended top of turn 2 because my army had cleared hte skies for all intents and purposes. You can always back them up with the Traktor Kannons but I personally don't like them that much.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys