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So I see a lot about how OP certain armies are... Tau & Eldar for the most part.
I personally don't think Tau are seriously OP but slightly over the level of balance (because the codex is fairly balanced in itself); however that's not the point of this topic (we don't need another Tau hate thread).

My question is which army or units do you think are the best balanced in the game?

Orks. My only complaint with them is da lucky stikk on megabosses or biker bosses.

I think all their other options are costed pretty appropriately for what you get, and they actually have an army wide ability to help against one of the biggest annoyances to assault armies; ran-dumb charge ranges.

man, that's a tough one.

the problem I'm having is the term 'most balanced' in the 40k hobby :]
it's like the square-root of minus one!

dark angels - im probably about to be shouted down here, but i didn't notice any 'death-star' units - some neat tricks but no unstoppable menace and also missing a few things the compliant chapters have which are rather fromage.

i liked their tech marine on a bike with a power field in a group of bikes, but its not the allied dual iron hands CM,black knight bodyguard, librarian, apothecary, relic wielding nonsense i saw in another thread!
and the nightshroud 2+ coversave stuff sounded interesting.

Dark Eldar are extremely balanced (against other codexes). Most of the dexes are. Really, the Tyranids are the only ones I think are so unbalanced as to be game-disrupting. (By that I mean the book is too weak, lol, not that it's OP.)

It was mentioned that because a book has no deathstar units makes it balanced, and I disagree. I think if you find a star unit or tactic in your codex use it but also look at the down side to it.

The wave serpent spam doesn't have many down sides, skimmers with tropps in em that can shoot and evade etc.

Lets look at the current SW TWC star. its nice to see a ton of cavalry on the table, but then we have no tropps for objectives, no heavy support, long range fire, no air defense. The TWC has its ups (CC and mobility) and its downs which is what gives that particular star balance.

DA, to my mind. They have some shenanigansy tricks (Power Fields, the Dakkapole) but nothing really seriously disruptive or uncounterable, and their designers erred on the side of overpricing things instead of underpricing them so you get a book of fairly-priced units with some stand-out hilariously expensive ones instead of a book of fairly-priced units with some stand-out hilariously underpriced ones the way Tau and Eldar ended up.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Really, the Tyranids are the only ones I think are so unbalanced as to be game-disrupting. (By that I mean the book is too weak, lol, not that it's OP.)

There's no such thing as codex tyranids. There's only codex flyrant spam.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think IG and orks are pretty well ballanced. DLS megaboss is a tough guy to fight against but he has a problem of being snp and fully relying on an opentopped vehicle with enormous av12 sides. So, not unstoppable. We have weak stuff like killa kanz and Ghazzy but other units are at least situationally useful.

Honestly the most recent Dexs have been fairly balanced, DE, SW, BA .........they've taken some initial bland hits but they seem to be off setting that with data slates to add flavor.

Nids got a little better with the new units added recently and pods adding at least list options for the dex,

DA need a slight boost I would say , however they're kind of getting it with the toning down of the other codexs

If you're talking just Chaos SM then they also could use a slight boost ..... or maybe just some flavor.

I would suspect there are going to be some very very sad Necrons players out there when they get their new dex and it (likely) gets this same treatment as the others.

regular SM now suffer from being made right before GW had an apparent change in tactics and by that I mean toning down Codexs and changing things that make it so you can take something as a troop that otherwise wouldn't be. While I think Chapter tactics are a great idea , I do think that if the current trends continue there will be some changes that might make true white scar players really sad.

Tau are good and only need a few tweaks to even them out with the others now.

Eldar are what break the whole dang mold sadly. They went through a massive codex creep before some apparent changes in thinking at GW.

My list stands as

Fairly Balanced in general - DE,SW,BA,GK, Chaos SM,Orks, Astra M, Nids

Need a few tweaks considering the new codex writing style/ 7th edition updates- C:SM , Tau. ........... Daemons ( this is due to some serious exploitations of the 7th edition Psychic phase obviously)

We're gonna need a re-write- Eldar

but hey thats just my thoughts

A lot of people voting for Nids here, were it just their codex I might agree, but Formations can make them as stupid broken as anything Eldar can bring.

I see IG mentioned as well, but I find the only armies having much success on tables are those usually running only maybe half a dozen, maybe a couple more, units from the book and that's about it, the internal balance is awful.

Were armies still limited to one FoC, my answer would probably be basic Space Marines. Confined to a single FoC, the army can be strong without being absurd and fluffy without being weak, and most anything is useable. With multiple detachments and allies however, it can be absurdly abused. Most of the other loyalist SM books probably fall under the same grouping, very balanced alone with a single detachment, very abuseable otherwise.

I thought Orks might be, but I haven't seen them do well at all with the new book, the new leadership rules seem to really cripple the army and drastically accelerate casualty rates. I watched one game where the Ork player killed 36 of his own models over the course of a 7 turn game

Honestly, I'm not sure what is the most balanced army right now, but with the proviso that the army is limited to a single detachment and no allies, I'd say Space Marines. With 7E force org rules though? Well, basically every list can be every army and it's hard to pin down.

 Jimsolo wrote:
(By that I mean the book is too weak, lol, not that it's OP.)

Hahahahaha......what? Tyranids top 2 builds Pentatyrant and Barbed Hierodule + Triflyrant are possible 2 of the strongest builds in the game. Speaking from an TAC aspect Tyranids have some of the best units with Podded Dakkafexes, Flyrants, Biovores, Mawlocs, Malanthropes and a few others as well as excellent formations like Living Artillery Node, Deathleaper's Assassin Brood, Skyblight and Skytyrant Swarm, even Manufactorum Genestealers can throw a spanner in the works in certain game types. They also excel at Maelstrom with units like Lictors, DS Rippers, Obsec Gargoyles from Skyblight and Hormagaunts. Tyranids are a top army at the moment up with the likes of Eldar, Daemons and Space Marine Deathstars.

I think Orks and Dark Eldar have nice internal balance but as far as external balance goes no codex is looking too hot.

Yea the issue with tyranids was mono builds and units being worthless due to the fact that they had to walk across the board. The pods changed all that , not to mention things like neurothrope who are pretty dang sweet that just got added. Pods made so many things better or even at least useable (please see haruspex)

The most recent codices have been pretty balanced. Orks, DE, BA, and to a lesser extent SW and GKs. SW have TWC mucking stuff up for them, and GKs have Dreadknights(less egregious than TWC). BA have one formation that, due to interaction with certain rules, can create some hefty problems (Angel's Fury + Drop Pods for Turn 1 Charge out of Deep Strike), but its point cost is so high that it is barely viable.

I just played a game with the Green Tide detachment. ran a minimal force org so I could take a Pain Boy and attach it to the mob. It was amazingly overpowered. The only time I had the slightest hiccup was when the daemon army managed to enfeeble my entire horde with -1s -1t

I've always felt that Necrons have been a solid, balanced codex. To be honest, they could've just reprinted the current codex in hardback and I'd have been happy.

But it certainly looks like we'll be getting most everything we already have, then formations, warlord traits, artifacts, my concern is the next codex might actually be OP.

I've already seen formations that would be a vast improvement to my current list, and more to follow can only add to that. We'll see soon enough.

Necrons aren't balanced, they're cheesy (that gives me an idea for a new thread )

 Zande4 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
(By that I mean the book is too weak, lol, not that it's OP.)

Hahahahaha......what? Tyranids top 2 builds Pentatyrant and Barbed Hierodule + Triflyrant are possible 2 of the strongest builds in the game. Speaking from an TAC aspect Tyranids have some of the best units with Podded Dakkafexes, Flyrants, Biovores, Mawlocs, Malanthropes and a few others as well as excellent formations like Living Artillery Node, Deathleaper's Assassin Brood, Skyblight and Skytyrant Swarm, even Manufactorum Genestealers can throw a spanner in the works in certain game types. They also excel at Maelstrom with units like Lictors, DS Rippers, Obsec Gargoyles from Skyblight and Hormagaunts. Tyranids are a top army at the moment up with the likes of Eldar, Daemons and Space Marine Deathstars.

I think Orks and Dark Eldar have nice internal balance but as far as external balance goes no codex is looking too hot.

No FW. Even if GW days so, little to no TO's allow FW and they are very stingy about even formations (which usually takes an ally slot)

SGTPozy wrote:
Necrons aren't balanced, they're cheesy (that gives me an idea for a new thread )

Meh...plenty of weaknesses for an opponent to exploit.

Space Marines by far IMO. The whole game is balanced around them.

 jasper76 wrote:
I've always felt that Necrons have been a solid, balanced codex. To be honest, they could've just reprinted the current codex in hardback and I'd have been happy.

But it certainly looks like we'll be getting most everything we already have, then formations, warlord traits, artifacts, my concern is the next codex might actually be OP.

I've already seen formations that would be a vast improvement to my current list, and more to follow can only add to that. We'll see soon enough.

hahaha if by balanced you mean matt ward balanced.

lol yea I can't wait to see all the Nerd rage / I'm quitting threads from necron players here soon.

Especially if they think they're getting a buff.

 BlackArmour wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
I've always felt that Necrons have been a solid, balanced codex. To be honest, they could've just reprinted the current codex in hardback and I'd have been happy.

But it certainly looks like we'll be getting most everything we already have, then formations, warlord traits, artifacts, my concern is the next codex might actually be OP.

I've already seen formations that would be a vast improvement to my current list, and more to follow can only add to that. We'll see soon enough.

hahaha if by balanced you mean matt ward balanced.

lol yea I can't wait to see all the Nerd rage / I'm quitting threads from necron players here soon.

Especially if they think they're getting a buff.

Get hurt by the Crons or something? Wouldn't have thought it was so contoversial to say Necrons are balanced. They're generally regarded as a mid-Tier codex.

We're already getting a buff from a Campaign book. I'd consider just this, and nothing more, a pretty nasty improvement. I do expect some points leveling, but I'd be surprised if we don't get more "Dynasty Options" (Chapter Tactics for Crons) out of the next codex. We'll see.

Hrm, I'd say most people think Necrons are in the top 5 typically. They don't quite have the same gimmicks that a couple other armies do that just a couple years ago would have been thought pure internet hyperbole (e.g. rerollable 2++ saves), but are *very* strong otherwise, and built exceedingly well to the core rules.

For example, their two main weapon types exploit the rules extraordinarily well. Gauss can be used to supplement actual AT guns and can potentially remove any tank in the game, Tesla meanwhile works tremendously well with Snapshots, allowing Necrons to get by without dedicated AA and to Jink and put out as much firepower as many other units would normally. Their vehicles, while ostensibly AV11, have AV13 shields to make most HP stripping weapons very weak or completely pointless (e.g. Scatterlasers, Autocannons, etc) and have enhanced rear armor to protect against vehicle assaults that make most other tanks absurdly easy to kill. Their basic transport gets an extra HP over every other vehicle in the game save for the Land Raider, while their flyer Transport suffers none of the downsides to passengers if shot down. None of their assault units really relied upon assault mechanisms that 6E and 7E neutered, and thus remain quite viable in that regard. There are several other examples of this, the CCB getting better every edition without any change, etc.

On the other hand, most vehicles are open-topped, so in 7th can be Exlpoded by any penetrating hit, regardless of AP.

They pretty much fold in CC to most armies (Wraiths are the exception)

Initiative 2 across the board (CTan Shard as the exception).

No grenades whatsoever.

Very limited and overcosted access to ranged AP2.Very limited and overcosted access to anything past 24".

Not much to write home about when dealing with MCs.

They have their strengths, sure, but they also have their weaknesses.

Nobody is saying they don't have weaknesses (though many of those you list aren't quite as big as one might think, for instance with AV13, most things that can penetrate could explode anyway, and between AV13 shields and 4+ jink, their vehicles remain extraordinarily resilient), no army is without weaknesses, even Eldar and Knights. Doesn't mean they can't still be *extremely* strong, and Necrons consistently still show very strongly in tournaments and events even with one of the oldest army books, much moreso than many other armies even with newer books.

 Vaktathi wrote:
...and Necrons consistently still show very strongly in tournaments and events even with one of the oldest army books, much moreso than many other armies even with newer books.

That's just because people who chose to play Necrons are typically the best wargamers

 jasper76 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
...and Necrons consistently still show very strongly in tournaments and events even with one of the oldest army books, much moreso than many other armies even with newer books.

That's just because people who chose to play Necrons are typically the best wargamers

Yep, second only to Eldar players.

SGTPozy wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
...and Necrons consistently still show very strongly in tournaments and events even with one of the oldest army books, much moreso than many other armies even with newer books.

That's just because people who chose to play Necrons are typically the best wargamers

Yep, second only to Eldar players.

Nah...the bottom-tier players just need a top-tier crutch

 Zande4 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
(By that I mean the book is too weak, lol, not that it's OP.)

Hahahahaha......what? Tyranids top 2 builds Pentatyrant and Barbed Hierodule + Triflyrant are possible 2 of the strongest builds in the game. Speaking from an TAC aspect Tyranids have some of the best units with Podded Dakkafexes, Flyrants, Biovores, Mawlocs, Malanthropes and a few others as well as excellent formations like Living Artillery Node, Deathleaper's Assassin Brood, Skyblight and Skytyrant Swarm, even Manufactorum Genestealers can throw a spanner in the works in certain game types. They also excel at Maelstrom with units like Lictors, DS Rippers, Obsec Gargoyles from Skyblight and Hormagaunts. Tyranids are a top army at the moment up with the likes of Eldar, Daemons and Space Marine Deathstars.

I think Orks and Dark Eldar have nice internal balance but as far as external balance goes no codex is looking too hot.

If we really want to go unbound....

 jasper76 wrote:
On the other hand, most vehicles are open-topped, so in 7th can be Exlpoded by any penetrating hit, regardless of AP.

They pretty much fold in CC to most armies (Wraiths are the exception)

Initiative 2 across the board (CTan Shard as the exception).

No grenades whatsoever.

Very limited and overcosted access to ranged AP2.Very limited and overcosted access to anything past 24".

Not much to write home about when dealing with MCs.

They have their strengths, sure, but they also have their weaknesses.

I was going to say to your other post that Necrons, while externally "balanced", have a horrid book right now. If they reprinted their current codex, I would quit. The fact that only half of the book is viable, things are too expensive, and there are cheaper options for most things that are "unique". And as you said, almost no AP2, very little and expensive AP3, and terrible CC, though for some reason, MSS isn't allowed to be a thing apparently. Not like it's our only defense or anything.

Sorry, Necron rant there. >.>

OH look, the necrn thinks he's getting BUFFED

Sorry to disappoint mate, while some things in the codex needs upgrades (flayed ones and destroyers for starters, doombarge, lychguard and the list is long should also get fixed), the necron codex have many, MANY overpowered things and unhealthy mechanics.

Night scythe is OP
Annibarge is OP
Tesla as a whole is probably getting nerfed as its interacting wildly with snap shots.
CCB is OP as it gets under RAW.
MSS is the single worst mechanic in the game, also OP. (probably removed)
T'ctan is OP
The fact they got nearly twenty relic-class items available between over/lord and crypteks, and without a "once only" limit is absurd.
The entire royal court is probably going to be broken down much like wolf guard.
Would not be surprised to see slight wraith nerf, but would also not be surprised if they stay the same.


Also saying MSS is your "only defense in CC" is laughable when you got wraiths as one of the best CC units in the game, and destroyerlords as one of the best CC HQs in the game. on top of CCB who is quite lethal in CC as well, and the fact every lord can pack a S+2 weapon that allows no armor saves.
You got CC. you don't master it like some other armies do, but you got it if you want it.

 BoomWolf wrote:
OH look, the necrn thinks he's getting BUFFED

Sorry to disappoint mate, while some things in the codex needs upgrades (flayed ones and destroyers for starters, doombarge, lychguard and the list is long should also get fixed), the necron codex have many, MANY overpowered things and unhealthy mechanics.

Night scythe is OP
Annibarge is OP
Tesla as a whole is probably getting nerfed as its interacting wildly with snap shots.
CCB is OP as it gets under RAW.
MSS is the single worst mechanic in the game, also OP. (probably removed)
T'ctan is OP
The fact they got nearly twenty relic-class items available between over/lord and crypteks, and without a "once only" limit is absurd.
The entire royal court is probably going to be broken down much like wolf guard.
Would not be surprised to see slight wraith nerf, but would also not be surprised if they stay the same.


Also saying MSS is your "only defense in CC" is laughable when you got wraiths as one of the best CC units in the game, and destroyerlords as one of the best CC HQs in the game. on top of CCB who is quite lethal in CC as well, and the fact every lord can pack a S+2 weapon that allows no armor saves.
You got CC. you don't master it like some other armies do, but you got it if you want it.

Umm, lol? I don't wanna say we're obviously getting buffed, but why is no one talking about how ridiculous the Shield of Baal supplement was? A 2+ rerollable armor save and a 3+ rerolling 1s invuln, and a S6 Staff of Light? Or a T8 C'Tan that can Deep strike across the board and has FNP? This is brand new stuff, which is kind of hinting at whats coming. So my hopes are high.

And Destroyer Lords are ONLY good if they're with Wraiths. Put him up against any CC unit, especially something from Chaos, SM, Tyranids, ext. They crumble like paper. You can't say that because he has a 2+ save a S7 weapon that he's good in CC. Still WS4, I2, and not fearless on his own.

I also like to not take anyone serious who just calls most things from a codex "OP". I hate Eldar, with a passion, yet I don't rant why everything is OP. Obnoxious, maybe. Unnecessary, sure. Not OP.