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Dreadwinter wrote:Shane only cares about himself, Lori, and Carl.

I think Carl just happens to be Lori's son. And Lori may have been knocked down the food chain
with Andera's suddenly needing "mutual stress relief". I seriously don't think Shane can be trusted
any longer.

And i forgot earlier. Dale hiding the guns, in the middle of WWZ, makes no sense at all. i understand
the desire to keep Shane away from them. Let Rick keep them. or even hide them in the farmhouse.

Agreed, Im still a bit confused as to why the hell Dale was hiding the guns, specially that far out in the middle of no where. Any ideas?

KingCracker wrote:Agreed, Im still a bit confused as to why the hell Dale was hiding the guns, specially that far out in the middle of no where. Any ideas?

I assume to keep them from Shane.

That was all I was getting from it as well. But that doesnt make too much sense, as that leaves the rest of the group completely un armed, and seeing as hes ALWAYS the spotter for them, just seems weird he would leave the entire group unable to defend themselves

I wish they stuck to the graphic novels, everything is toned down and dragged out too much, I'm a fan of the series but can't see it in the same light as the graphic novels...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingCracker wrote:Agreed, Im still a bit confused as to why the hell Dale was hiding the guns, specially that far out in the middle of no where. Any ideas?

It also gives Dale a sense of power and belonging in the group, he is the oldest and feels that he should be their defender, having read the graphic novels and seing his love intrest that will (hopefully) fully flesh out later on (probably early next season) he really needs the positive interactions that being the groups savior gives him.

and basically calling Ricks group a bunch of crazies.

They're not?
Shane is Shane.
Andrea was all for killing herself about a week ago, is obsessed with guns while too screwy to trust with a staple gun, and now gets sexualy aroused from killing zombies.
Lori is about ready to off herself, let Carl die, and abort her baby due to depression.
Carol was a weeping puddle of humanity that is only now pulling herself together and very likely to go downhill again now.
Rick is so obsessed with keeping his family safe he's willing to take part in the zombie rodeo and refuses to inform the group about what's going on.
Dale was about to bury their weapons in a swamp which would virtually guarnatee their destruction in short order.
Daryl, while awesome, is starting to think walker ear necklaces are a great fashion choice.

The only people not on the verge of clinical insanity are Carl, Glenn, and T-Dog (maybe because we only see him get one line an episode).

I think Shane is not only a douche, he's a dangerous douche. his mentality is
survival, but not as a group. after what he did to Otis, there's no telling where he'd stop.
I agree with his stance on the barn, just not his execution(no pun intended). if he had
issues, he should have talked to Hershel with Rick. his actions endangers the groups
current situation. and desrtoyed part of Hershels world. not that it was healthy. Hershel
just had the old word ripped away from him. There are better ways to have done it.

This right here. Shane is only looking out for himself and Lori and Carl to a degree. Everything else at this point is just resources for him and them to consume. Shane is the anti-social dill weed's idea of a survivalist. You don't have to be a total douche to survive. Not to mention that long term survival is more assured with a group than solo.

His break down at the barn resolved a serious issue but in quite possibly the worst way he could short of burning down the barn and having flaming zombies on their hands. Right idea, horrific execution.

Rick did what he said earlier on in the episodes about finding her as a zombie. He stuck to his word, it shows that he is the kind of leadership material you need. Somebody who is looking out for the group as a whole. Shane only cares about himself, Lori, and Carl.

Don't be so sure. Rick's entire focus right now is on Lori, their baby, and Carl. He is not focused on the group as a whole any more than Shane is. He's not as big an ass as Shane, and his method would be alright for the group in general, but if anything this episode showed just how far he's willing to go to keep his family safe.

See, I kinda thought that maybe Dale anticipated what went down at the end of the episode. Remove the guns from the equation and that situation probably can't blow up the way it did, allowing them to stay on the farm in relative (albeit tense) safety. Or at least that might have been what was going through his head.

Dale might have been trying to avoid the ending scenario, but the logical way to dispose of them would have only required one gun. Shane's flip out required many but it was the worst way to handle it. I think that it was really mostly about keeping the guns from Shane and avoiding those guns getting turned to point at each other.

I understand the feelings of posters who sympathize with Shane's "enough is enough" attitude, but it wasn't their land and thus wasn't their call. Herschel has his head in the sand, but Rick and company are now behaving like a bunch of armed thugs...toward other humans, not just zombies anymore. They're a very short step away from taking possession of the farm at gunpoint now. I'm sure the plot will force them to leave so that the show keeps moving, but considering where the group is at, I think locking Herschel and family in the barn and taking possession would be the natural next step. Even Rick would probably be amenable to that now given Lori's condition.

Allow me to take the side of the donkey-cave, why shouldn't they? Herschel is in possession of something very valuable, a defensible (if not currently well defended) position, land to grow food on, cows and chickens for milk and eggs, and plenty of room for them to settle into and help each other and live in safety.

Instead he's doing his best to try and force them off his land. Now, society no longer exists. The land is no longer civilized. Rick is not wrong in his assertion that sending them back out in the wilderness, especially with a pregnant woman and eventually baby, could very well be a death sentence. If Rick truly believes that then when Hershel refuses it's time to pull out that Colt Python and say, "I strongly urge you to reconsider your position." Rick's group is armed, Hershel's is not. While working together and cooperating is the best solution, if one side is unwilling to do that then, and their lack of cooperation is putting you and yours in danger then it's time to settle it caveman style, a.k.a. my gun's bigger.

If the price of admission into Camp Dinnerbell is to start wrangling zombies and living next to that ticking time bomb then it's time to decide it's not worth paying and just take it.

[/spoiler]

Respectfully, I disagree.

[spoiler]
-Land ownership pre-Zombie games is irrelevant. The only land you have is the only land you can fight to keep.
-Everyone at this point is just armed thugs. Thats the situaiton in a post apocalyptic environment until the armed thugs start to coagulate and re-assert control. Thats all order is in the first place.
-I'm actually not seeing what moves Shane has made that are incorrect in the series to date.
-I don't see them locking the existing group in the barn. I see a foreceful integration or "We're here, we have guns, we're staying like one big happy family now."
-Having said that I don't see their locale as praticularly safe. Since the episode started they have had 2-3 zombie encounters in walking distance. Its not their location is actually secure if a herd comes through.

Totally didn't see the Sophia thing coming, I mean I did...but having read the comics I didn't think they'd go that way.

@Tyyr:




@Fraz:

@Gorgon

Except that Herchel is the only one really opposed to them staying that's been noticed. Add in the fact that they specifically mentioned all the local farms were burnt out or infestest heavily with walkers and if you want to settle in then Herchel's really is the only place.

That being said I don't think the farm is safe at all once the massive hordes of the undead spread from the major cities out into the country side.

gorgon wrote:@Tyyr:


@Fraz:

Spoiler:

If their land (in the family for generations) was stolen from them, there's no way Herschel and co. would accept it and be part of a "happy family." Realistically, they would resent it to an extreme, and likely would end up fighting back in some fashion. Sure, Rick and company have guns, but it'd be pretty easy to poison their milk, wouldn't it? Forced integration could not possibly end well. Anyone smart would lock the family up or otherwise limit their movements, etc. If you're going to be a thief and thug, you gotta go all in.

Regarding property, it's Herschel's land and the group knows it.

Or

-Having said that I don't see their locale as praticularly safe. Since the episode started they have had 2-3 zombie encounters in walking distance. Its not their location is actually secure if a herd comes through.

It's a very large open area that has little cover between the treeline and the house. The house sits on top of a nice hill. You've got 300+ yards of clear view in every direction (more in many) allowing you to spot walkers coming from a long ways away. In most areas there's some kind of cover to hide zombies like buildings, trees, underbrush, just terrain being in the way. As is the farm serves as a good starting point. Personally I think they need to be working on fortifying the house and then fortifying the perimeter.

No, if you don't like living under his rules, then it's time to LEAVE. They can find another farmhouse for Lori to knit booties in. It's just easier to take it from Herschel, which goes back to them behaving like armed thugs and thieves and not civilized people. And note that up to this point, the group has mostly behaved in a civilized way. Defending yourself <> uncivilized.

It's easy to say "who cares about acting civilly, civilization has ended." But civilization isn't really about government institutions and laws written on paper, it's about how people behave toward one another. People choose whether they behave in a civilized way...it isn't something forced on them by their environment.

Actually civilization is largely forced upon most people by dint of laws and punishments for disobeying and various incentives to obey.

We're not dealing with a situation where things are nice and safe. The last time they were on the highway they had a herd of 100+ zombies roam by. Maggie has stated to the "get another farm" idea that every other farm nearby is burned down or destroyed. They are relatively safe and secure where they are right now, the area they would have to go to in order to find another suitable place is far more dangerous. The odd of some of their number being injured (T-Dog, Carl) or killed (you know who) in the process of finding another place are high.

It's nice to say, "Let's all be civilized," when it's just a thought exercise but let's consider the situation, really. The last time they camped out in a less than great area walkers stumbled upon their camp and killed Amy and Carol's husband as well as biting and condeming Jim to death. Since going out on the road they have had T-Dog severly injured, Carl shot, and Sophia wandered off. Since they have set up camp... well Daryl got an arrow through his side but that's it. This time has been the least dangerous they've had in a while. They also aren't having to scavenge as much since water, milk, eggs, and possibly other food is being grown right where they are. They've had fewer encounters with walkers. This traumatized group is now facing down the prospect of being forced back out into that wilderness that has claimed multiple lives and left several members seriously injured.

So, you want them to just say, "Ok Hershel, that's cool and all, have a nice apocalypse," and go? Rick's not wrong, if Hershel does evict them it is highly likely that they will lose more people, people who wouldn't have died if Hershel had let them stay. So facing the prospect of watching your people die versus one pain in the ass old man's rules you want them to pack up and go? You'd just subject your young son, pregnant wife, and the lives of half a dozen people who look to you for leadership to danger and almost certain death just follow this old prick's rules?

No, you pull out your pistol and tell him he needs to think long and hard about peaceful cohabitation or you'll ask the next in his line of succession for their answer.

I feels ya. But on the safety I still don't agree. maybe in the other states that wide open. Here? not hardly.

It's Herschel's call. He obviously gets a bad vibe from these people and quite frankly he may be right. He has been more than accommodating. You could argue that if he hadn't bothered to save Carl's life and just shooed them away immediately he wouldn't be in this situation. No good deed goes unpunished.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:It's Herschel's call. He obviously gets a bad vibe from these people and quite frankly he may be right. He has been more than accommodating. You could argue that if he hadn't bothered to save Carl's life and just shooed them away immediately he wouldn't be in this situation. No good deed goes unpunished.

You could argue if his man hadn't capped the kid they wouldn't be there either.

Under an enlightened Frazzled rule all of them would have been exterminated if you shot my kid. This be nice crap is just that, crap.

If he hadn't tried to save Carl I'm not sure anyone on Herchels farm over a certain age would be alive. Remember it was one of his people that shot the boy that makes him responsible from a leadership standpoint.

Sorry, once the world ends it's tribe mentaility and not society. That means your immediate group is more important than anyone else. And when a strong tribe moves into a weak tribes location that tribe get assimilated (by choice or not) or moves on. Ricks tribe is stronger.

Hulksmash wrote:If he hadn't tried to save Carl I'm not sure anyone on Herchels farm over a certain age would be alive. Remember it was one of his people that shot the boy that makes him responsible from a leadership standpoint.

Sorry, once the world ends it's tribe mentaility and not society. That means your immediate group is more important than anyone else. And when a strong tribe moves into a weak tribes location that tribe get assimilated (by choice or not) or moves on. Ricks tribe is stronger.

Exactly. Unless of course civilization rears its ugly head, then its:

Frazzled wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:It's Herschel's call. He obviously gets a bad vibe from these people and quite frankly he may be right. He has been more than accommodating. You could argue that if he hadn't bothered to save Carl's life and just shooed them away immediately he wouldn't be in this situation. No good deed goes unpunished.

You could argue if his man hadn't capped the kid they wouldn't be there either.

Under an enlightened Frazzled rule all of them would have been exterminated if you shot my kid. This be nice crap is just that, crap.

Frazz have you ever read a group of books called "The Horseclans" Author name of Adams...don't remember his given name.

AustonT wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:It's Herschel's call. He obviously gets a bad vibe from these people and quite frankly he may be right. He has been more than accommodating. You could argue that if he hadn't bothered to save Carl's life and just shooed them away immediately he wouldn't be in this situation. No good deed goes unpunished.

You could argue if his man hadn't capped the kid they wouldn't be there either.

Under an enlightened Frazzled rule all of them would have been exterminated if you shot my kid. This be nice crap is just that, crap.

Frazz have you ever read a group of books called "The Horseclans" Author name of Adams...don't remember his given name.

No I have not.

At least the first 3 books are worth reading...you'd probably like them. I found them each for about 70 cents plus shipping on amazon in 2006.
You might appreciate the way civilization, eco hippies, and Europeans are portrayed.

coolio. I looked up the wikidpedia on them. They sound like Comanches.

Rick's group should leave Hershel's farm already. In the graphic novel, this meant leaving behind my personally favorite characters (i wont name names). There's too much tension between Hershel trying to take control and Rick's group retaliating against even Rick's orders.

Squidmanlolz wrote:Rick's group should leave Hershel's farm already. In the graphic novel, this meant leaving behind my personally favorite characters (i wont name names). There's too much tension between Hershel trying to take control and Rick's group retaliating against even Rick's orders.

Why leave? As Shane might be thinking...I kind of like it here and we have all the guns.

Frazzled wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:Rick's group should leave Hershel's farm already. In the graphic novel, this meant leaving behind my personally favorite characters (i wont name names). There's too much tension between Hershel trying to take control and Rick's group retaliating against even Rick's orders.

Why leave? As Shane might be thinking...I kind of like it here and we have all the guns.

Hostile takeover isn't always the answer, they owe Hershel and at the very least should follow his rule while on his farm

Squidmanlolz wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:Rick's group should leave Hershel's farm already. In the graphic novel, this meant leaving behind my personally favorite characters (i wont name names). There's too much tension between Hershel trying to take control and Rick's group retaliating against even Rick's orders.

Why leave? As Shane might be thinking...I kind of like it here and we have all the guns.

Hostile takeover isn't always the answer, they owe Hershel and at the very least should follow his rule while on his farm

Again, and this is all done with respect to you adn your opinion, but they don't owe him anything besides maybe a dirt nap for nearly killing one of their own.

Hershel didn't have to offer his hospitality, he could have turned them away at his doorstep.

Squidmanlolz wrote:Hershel didn't have to offer his hospitality, he could have turned them away at his doorstep.

Not if he wanted to live.

Squidmanlolz wrote:Hershel didn't have to offer his hospitality, he could have turned them away at his doorstep.

And then it would be Otis versus The Gang. (They said he was the only one who knew guns.)

I don't see Otis crawling out of that one alive.