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maceria wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Bleak_Fantasy wrote:BS4 for FW is enough for me to start playing Tau.

BS4 Firewarriors would make me quit Tau.

I agree. BS4 would be a complete cop-out in design.
The overall idea with the current stat system is that humans are baseline. With this idea, armies with base BS of 4 should be rare. But since fully 3/4 of the Codex out there are SM, the proportions are a little off.

With the current system, the Tau are overcosted, and lacking in the super-special rules. A 10-15% decrease in cost would do just about right, under the current rules. However, with 6th right around the corner I'll just wait to see how it plays out, and wait for some rumint before crying that my army isn't broken with an instant win button.

How is it a cop-out in design to adjust stats for a shifting meta-game, especially when said stat change is something they should have had to begin with. One thing with design, especially game design, is the following acronym. KISS, which stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. If something can be fixed working within the existing rules than fix it by work within the existing rules, and use the simplest change there in. E.g. You could give Firewarriors a special rule that makes them get better at shooting as the game goes on, you could change Pulse Rifles to TL or you could increase one of their base stats by one. Which one do you do? You increase the base stats, particularly when that base stat is both low and essential to the way the army works.

Or you just make Markerlights cheap or *gasp* FREE for Firewarrior Shas'ui and also make them a vehicle upgrade.

I'd like it if GW didn't make Markerlights superfluous by giving BS4 to everything. They're integral to both the fluff and crunch of fielding Tau, and I'd like to keep it that way.

I think that they should have BS4. They still have a basic strength and toughness and their stats are not that great in general. What do the TAu have to compare to the orders you can give IG army? The FW don't do anything that great. That's all they do is shoot. Why not make them gifted at shooting.

Shas'la should shoot like guard - ie average.

Now what happens when they hit should be spectacular, but they still should shoot like guard.

Mar'tacus wrote:Or you just make Markerlights cheap or *gasp* FREE for Firewarrior Shas'ui and also make them a vehicle upgrade.

I'd like it if GW didn't make Markerlights superfluous by giving BS4 to everything. They're integral to both the fluff and crunch of fielding Tau, and I'd like to keep it that way.

This. I would love it if every shas'ui came standard with a networked markerlight. He can light up a target for his unit and give them BS4 (or make his unit twin-linked or whatever the future markerlight mechanic will be).

Giving Tau BS4 would be the biggest cop-out in the history of 40k, making Tau the "no-brainer point-and-shoot" army. Part of the challenge in playing Tau (back when the current book was new, etc.) was supporting your firewarriors with markerlights properly. That is what separated a good Tau player from the mediocre.

Mar'tacus wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

SabrX wrote:And will the markerlights also be BS2? That won't be fun...

Yes, but there will be loads of them.

Ick.

A full shooty army with no CC ability should NOT shoot like Orkz.

Orks don't have marker lights.

BS2 Markerlights are not enough to justify BS2 overall.

At BS2, you need volume to hit which the Tau don't have. BS2 is just a dumb idea for a unit that needs to be better, not worse.

The nice thing is that aside from a cost reduction, all the support for Firewarriors can come from elsewhere in the codex.

And for another thing: How do you propose to get enough Markerlights into the army to justify BS2? You'd have to give pretty much every non-basic unit one AND allow them to shoot their other weapons for it to even be feasible. You need to realize that the Tau need to shoot their actual weapons too. Markerlights don't do damage on their own.

Mar'tacus wrote:Better tanks?

Give the Hammerhead Ion Cannon sponsons and we'll call it even with the Leman Russ.

I will buy 3 of these.

Nagashek wrote:

Mar'tacus wrote:Better tanks?

Give the Hammerhead Ion Cannon sponsons and we'll call it even with the Leman Russ.

I will buy 3 of these.

That would be the best thing ever.

TheMind wrote:
How is it a cop-out in design to adjust stats for a shifting meta-game, especially when said stat change is something they should have had to begin with. One thing with design, especially game design, is the following acronym. KISS, which stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. If something can be fixed working within the existing rules than fix it by work within the existing rules, and use the simplest change there in.

So, when the Guard needed buffing, why didn't they just make average Guardsman BS4 and Veterans BS5? I mean, that is obviously the simplest option.

Big part of the appeal of both Tau and Guard is that the basic soldiers aren't supersoldiers or genetically honed killing machines, but more akin 'average guys' working around their handicaps against all kinds of big killy enemies.

Sure, you COULD give Tau BS4 base. And while we're at it, they die too easily, lets give them T4. They still have poor save, lets give them Sv 3+. Maybe improve their leadership a bit, and give some special rule for regrouping or something. Oh crap, they still suck in close combat, better increase their WS and S too.

I mean, those are the easiest, most obvious solutions to boost Tau weaknesses.

That's just taking the idea to the logical extreme to make it sound dumb. BS4 really isn't that bad of a suggestion, but it doesn't fit the Tau very well. And I agree as far as the appeal of the IG and the Tau. A big part of the reason I play them is because they don't seem like the Mary Sues that Spess Mehreens are.

But Guard have the numbers available to them to make BS3 viable. Tau don't. Also according to fluff Tau are supposedly as accurate with their Pulse Rifles as Space Marines are with their bolters. It's just Tau don't have the fully extensive training that Space Marines get. Which is why it makes sense to raise their BS to 4 and keep everything else the same, where as Space Marines are superior in just about every way. Basically Guard conscripts are trainee's directly out of basic, or in the middle of basic, Tau have more training so would be more along the lines of an elite unit, and Space Marines are John J. Rambo in Iron Man Mk III armor.

While I think at BS2, Markerlights are a sad fix, at BS3, Markerlights can selectively make the Tau accurate as hell. We don't need numbers if we can get enough cheap Markerlights spread throughout the army to light up multiple targets.

As far as the suggestion to give Firewarrior Shas'ui free Markerlights is concerned, I don't care if they're networked or not. You can set up a crossfire or something. And finally there'd be a reason to take armory items on your Shas'ui, because as it stands now to get a Markerlight-equipped Shas'ui with a Target Lock it costs 35 points FOR ONE INFANTRYMAN, which is ridiculous.

Pathfinders are the only reasonably priced Markerlights in our codex, and they can only really light up one target without suffering the same pitfall as the Firewarrior Shas'ui.

TheMind wrote:But Guard have the numbers available to them to make BS3 viable. Tau don't. Also according to fluff Tau are supposedly as accurate with their Pulse Rifles as Space Marines are with their bolters. It's just Tau don't have the fully extensive training that Space Marines get. Which is why it makes sense to raise their BS to 4 and keep everything else the same, where as Space Marines are superior in just about every way. Basically Guard conscripts are trainee's directly out of basic, or in the middle of basic, Tau have more training so would be more along the lines of an elite unit, and Space Marines are John J. Rambo in Iron Man Mk III armor.

Yes, Guard Conscripts are rookies, which is why they have BS2. Guardsmen proper, however, are excellent marksmen and, above all else don't have poor depth-perception. Tau Fire Warriors are more accurate with proper markerlight support. Without it, they're not as good marksmen as Guardsmen, let alone Astartes. BS4 without any kind of technological assistance shouldn't happen for Fire Warriors.

Where does it say tau are as accurate with a pulse rifle as a marine is with a bolter?

Also, Guard conscripts are BS2... A Trained Guardsman is BS3, which is what a trained Firewarrior should be.

This is devolving into discussion again.
Please start a new topic if you want to discuss how to fix FWs

Firewarriors should remain BS3

Fire Warriors on the other hand should be given some way to pay for BS4 through one of several ways.

-Targeting array drones

-Shas'Ui free markerlight (all markerlights should be networked by default)

-Ethereal giving BS4? (Risk vs reward)



Now there is one thing I will always argue is that Crisis Suits should honestly be BS4 be default. When you think about it they are veteran FireWarriors who have been in battles. They are chosen to pilot Crisis suits because of their performance. And I think biggest of all, they are in a highly advanced robotic suit filled with the most advanced sensors in the universe. How can a Firewarrior gain/have all these traits and not somehow get better at aiming? Even Guard vets get BS4.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yes actually. Design by committee doesn't work, you cannot make something that will be all things to everyone, otherwise you end up with the wargames factory greatcoat minis but seriously, for all the hate Matt Ward gets his rules are tons more balanced than some of the crap I've seen suggested in this thread and others.

That's assuming that Matt Ward never ever talked to the other authors and blindly made his codices (which obviously is impossible). Also Design by Committee and Design by Community are two completely separate ideas. And there are plenty of studies showing that Design by Community is extremely effective, especially when compared to Design by Committee. The more people you have looking at an issue/design the more likely you are to get emergent trends. If a lot of people are bringing up the same issue then it should be something considered. Increasing the number fresh eyes to a design can increase the odds of getting new ideas. If you have the same single person writing all the codices gak will get stale fast. The current codex writers already show this by being able to be given stereotypes on their trends in writing. But, design by community has shown to sharply increase innovative ideas that would of otherwise not of been thought of.

One great example of design by community was the F-16 fighter, which was made after consulting all pilots in the air force on what they wanted in a new fighter. This thing was put into service in 1978 and is still considered one of the best fighters in the world 34 years later.

Yeah, suits of any sort should def. be BS4...

But the F-16 is eh.. theres a lot of politics behind it and... yeah, read Boyd: The Fighter Pilot that Changed the Art of War by Robert Coram, it goes into a good amount of detail about the USAF fighter mafia and the resistance and controversy involved in the development of the teen series fighters. I wouldnt say that its the fighter that it was originally envisioned to be, and while it offers superior overall performance to the various aircraft that it ultimately replaced, it is not necessarily as efficient or as effective in the various roles. And of course, along the same vein: F-35, design by committee/community/whatever you want to call it at its absolute worst, IMO.

Suits, BS4, sure. Honor guard/vets certainly.

Marker drones would be viable for infantry squads if

1) cost decrease
2) remove that super special drone rule that they count as the unit type they are attached to. Marker drones attached to suits are classed as jet pack infantry, and subsequently relentless, and can shoot heavy and move, but attached to infantry count as infantry, and cannot.

Also, the F-16 wasn't designed to be equally competitive, it was designed to be superior. Great design for warfare, not for wargaming.

Mar'tacus wrote:BS2 Markerlights are not enough to justify BS2 overall.

At BS2, you need volume to hit which the Tau don't have. BS2 is just a dumb idea for a unit that needs to be better, not worse.

The nice thing is that aside from a cost reduction, all the support for Firewarriors can come from elsewhere in the codex.

And for another thing: How do you propose to get enough Markerlights into the army to justify BS2? You'd have to give pretty much every non-basic unit one AND allow them to shoot their other weapons for it to even be feasible. You need to realize that the Tau need to shoot their actual weapons too. Markerlights don't do damage on their own.

My suggestion was BS2 and and overall cost reduction and availability of lots of marker lights.

That could easily come from giving Gun Drones network marker lights as standard, then every unit can have some.

Also, I would make changes to various other bits of the codex. For instance, I would make Crisis units 1-4, and give them a free targetting array on top of their other equipment.

Mar'tacus wrote:
I'd like it if GW didn't make Markerlights superfluous by giving BS4 to everything. They're integral to both the fluff and crunch of fielding Tau, and I'd like to keep it that way.

If I remember my fluff correctly, the Taus have a visual peculiarity compared to humans, sort of an improved depth perception but with a reduced field of vision, that is in large part responsible for them being weak in close combat. But that would also give them superior aiming.

Crunch-wise, I could say that first, a guardsman doesn't cost 10 points, and that a FW is only 5 points away from a marine, with it's much superior armor, strength, morale, toughness and CC. If the FW had BS4, it wouldn't look unbalanced. Second, markerlights should be an option, or a strategic choice. Right now they're much too mandatory, use-lots-of-them-or-you're-not-viable for my taste.

Shadowsword8 wrote:
If I remember my fluff correctly, the Taus have a visual peculiarity compared to humans, sort of an improved depth perception but with a reduced field of vision, that is in large part responsible for them being weak in close combat. But that would also give them superior aiming.

Crunch-wise, I could say that first, a guardsman doesn't cost 10 points, and that a FW is only 5 points away from a marine, with it's much superior armor, strength, morale, toughness and CC. If the FW had BS4, it wouldn't look unbalanced. Second, markerlights should be an option, or a strategic choice. Right now they're much too mandatory, use-lots-of-them-or-you're-not-viable for my taste.

I remember that one as well. The one everybody else keeps pointing to is the Ethereal autopsy, which says something to the effect that the ocular(?) membrane is near sighted and slow to focus or some such nonsense. Of course it is an Ethereal and not specifically bred for ranged combat, like the Fire Caste is, so it could be near sighted. Heck the Ethereals are actually fair in close combat and have no firearms so it kind of makes sense. The problem is everyone takes it as the Tau species(how do you make it multiples?) in general. Tau is 5 different species, with a similar starting point, but much greater genetic variance than the differences in human populations(ie White, black, short, tall etc...). Tau Species differences include wings and pheromone glands in addition to the strength and toughness of each caste.

As a points cost reply: At their current cost getting preferred enemy/infantry, relentless, and stealth, as well as a free squad leader with a free networked markerlight would be just as good as giving them a single point upgrade in their BS. Conversely, dropping them to 7 points and leaving them as is would also be viable.

They aren't different species. They are variants, at best. Otherwise enforced restrictions wouldn't be necessary to keep the Casts pure.

Korraz wrote:They aren't different species. They are variants, at best. Otherwise enforced restrictions wouldn't be necessary to keep the Casts pure.

Possibly. Do we know that they are actually able to crossbreed? That restriction might be in place to ensure the continued growth of the Tau in general. If a Air caste and Fire caste were to mate there may never be an offspring do to the genetic variance between the two species, or the offspring would be sterile like Ligers(lion/tiger cross).

The GW fluff says they are the same species.

Not really. The fluff essentially points towards them all being the same family, but not same species. They had a similar ancestor, but have evolved differently since then.

Species in the sense they are inter-fertile.

I've never seen anything to suggest that, outside of "inter-Caste breeding is forbidden" which doesn't state they're inter-fertile.

It would be pointless of having the inter-caste breeding rule in place if nothing would happen though.

To use a real-life example...a lot of areas have laws against humans coupling with animals, but there's no humanzees running around.

I realize this will come off as a bit silly, but the point of this statement is that not all rules or laws have to do with a logical basis. They also have a moral and social aspect to them.