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I thought the Tau caste system, was based more on the Indian Caste system, in the sense its more about political and social power, than anything to do with species.

It has been a while since I read the Tau book mind, but thats what I remember getting from it.

Well, there are clear physiological differences between the various castes. The Air caste quickly comes to mind for being far taller and much thinner than the others, and I believe they are also described as having excess skin under their arms which is a vestigial trait from a time when they used it to glide or some such...

In any case, the point of a caste system is to keep parts of society distinctly separate, etc. That means there would have to be a ban on inter-breeding...

Kanluwen wrote:I've never seen anything to suggest that, outside of "inter-Caste breeding is forbidden" which doesn't state they're inter-fertile.

In the absence of positive proof in that direction, it makes logical sense that since they were once inter-fertile, and are forbidden from inter-breeding, they are still inter-fertile.

There's nothing about SMs having BS4 that Tau wouldn't be able to equal with technology. I think Crisis suits should all be BS4 as a combination of experience and tech. Firewarriors are a stretch just because they're not as experienced as Crisis Suit pilots. Honestly, Firewarriors will never be BS4 because that would make their shooting fully superior to SMs, and GW would never allow that.

Crisis definitely deserve BS4. They have more experience and better systems.
Fire Warriors do not. This has nothing to do with Space Marines. FW simply neither have the training, nor the equipment SM have.

Korraz wrote:Crisis definitely deserve BS4. They have more experience and better systems.
Fire Warriors do not. This has nothing to do with Space Marines. FW simply neither have the training, nor the equipment SM have.

I don't know about not having the equipment, to me it's always safe (at least fluff wise) to assume that Tau always have the better tech/equipment.

But the SMs still have it in my book. FW are completely out of league with SMs in every category except firepower.

SMs are essentially trained from early childhood (12 years of age), I don't think an extra decade will change much in the training between the two.
SMs are hundreds of years old, having been in hundreds of battles and wars. If Guard vets get BS4 for their veterancy, then SMs would technically get BS5 for theirs.
SMs have tones of implants and other physical trait increases which FW don't have. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#.TwpqaCmTM1I)

SMs are essentially built to remove all defects of the human body and drastically improve all benefits. If the SMs were anything like their fluff on the tabletop, then we would be screwed.


Also I do not like this BS2 idea, it seems absurd to me. So the solution is to make BS2 but give more markerlights and more people shooting? Isn't this essentially saying you want Tau to be a horde army, just with guns instead of melee. Also this is a game that takes luck into account just as much as skill. Do we really want to make it even more luck based? "Oh crap, didn't hit many markerlights. Guess I'll just take my army off the table." Because no matter how you spin it, you are rolling twice to hit with everything you shoot. Once for markers and once for Shots. Now an example of how this is already horrid idea is seen in the seeker missiles since you have to roll twice to hit once with them.

Imo, keep FW BS3 but down them to Guardian or Kabalite Warrior price, maybe allow more slots for BS4 honor guard, and Crisis Suits (and stealth suits?) get beefed up to BS4.

At the risk of wishlisting, one thing that I hope gets worked on in the new edition is the Tau background. No, I don't want anything in particular changed (Ward, put down your pen!). But it seems to me that because of what little fluff there is, players have a tendency to fill in the gaps with their own imagination and we end up with people being unsure who exactly the Tau are.

See the argument above about whether or not different castes are different species.

I've also heard arguments related to Tau eyesight basically claiming they're near to blind, and that they would be constantly walking into walls if it weren't for their technology.

Then I've heard some people say their technology is inferior to human tech.

Then I've heard some people say their technology is superior to Eldar tech.

I've heard them called space communists, hippies, and so on. Are they a dynamic civilization with positive goals for the Universe or are they heartless, manipulative fascists who institute forced sterilization programs on the worlds they conquer?

JOHIRA wrote:At the risk of wishlisting, one thing that I hope gets worked on in the new edition is the Tau background. No, I don't want anything in particular changed (Ward, put down your pen!). But it seems to me that because of what little fluff there is, players have a tendency to fill in the gaps with their own imagination and we end up with people being unsure who exactly the Tau are.

See the argument above about whether or not different castes are different species.

I've also heard arguments related to Tau eyesight basically claiming they're near to blind, and that they would be constantly walking into walls if it weren't for their technology.

Then I've heard some people say their technology is inferior to human tech.

Then I've heard some people say their technology is superior to Eldar tech.

I've heard them called space communists, hippies, and so on. Are they a dynamic civilization with positive goals for the Universe or are they heartless, manipulative fascists who institute forced sterilization programs on the worlds they conquer?

Some how with GW, all of them at the same time are true.

The off topic is strong in this one...

I keep getting disappointed when I see a new, whole page has appeared, but then it turns out to be nothing but fluff debates and wish listing. Would be nice if the thread title got updated when ever someting actually pertaining to the thread got posted.

Cheers.

Indeed, appearently waffeling about bs4 and
GW favoring spacemarines all the time, never gets boring. XD
I think this is the 3rd, or even 4th time this is beeing dicussed here... ^^

Dantalian wrote:

Korraz wrote:Crisis definitely deserve BS4. They have more experience and better systems.
Fire Warriors do not. This has nothing to do with Space Marines. FW simply neither have the training, nor the equipment SM have.

I don't know about not having the equipment, to me it's always safe (at least fluff wise) to assume that Tau always have the better tech/equipment.

See, that's a common misconception.
Tau are up and coming, but they are still developing. The Imperium is the giant moloch from outer space with Tech that the Earth Cast just starts to comprehend. In short, the Imperium has lost more than the Tau have developed yet.

I thought I read something where a tech priest or some such says something to the effect of Tau tech matching and in some cases exceeding Imperial equivalents. Their beef was that they did not pay the proper respects to the machine spirits and the Omnisiah. Give me a bit to find it.

Iirc it was in the first tau codex somewhere.
But this is only true in some cases.

Imperial tech in general (especially bio tech and the like) is far superior.
Problem with humans is that they lost their best tech, or banned it because it was to powerfull. >.<
Also imperial tech has to be extremely mass producable, and resource efficient. So yea, Tau can not really out tech the Imperium.

We seem to have moved off the topic, so I will move it to 40K Discussions.

This is why we can't have nice things

So now we have a thread called Tau rumors in the discussion section, which will be updated with more rumors. And its mod approved.
I am confused

It stopped being news and rumours a couple of pages past.

We've been here before, we will make it back to the rumor thread again! XD
Sadly there aren't any new Tau rumors atm...

So while we wait, who is up for another round of "bs4 vs bs3"? ^^

OOOOH!

OOOOOH! ME!

IPS wrote:Iirc it was in the first tau codex somewhere.
But this is only true in some cases.

Imperial tech in general (especially bio tech and the like) is far superior.
Problem with humans is that they lost their best tech, or banned it because it was to powerfull. >.<
Also imperial tech has to be extremely mass producable, and resource efficient. So yea, Tau can not really out tech the Imperium.

It's on page 20 of the current Tau codex. The speaker admits Tau tech is equal to and sometimes better than imperial. When you consider who is speaking, it could easily be assumed that the superiority of Tau tech is being grossly understated for the speakers fear of being executed as a heretic. The speaker goes on to imply that Imperial tech is superior because it pays proper obeisances to the holy spirit of the machine god...

Here's why imperial tech is, and will always be inferior: First of all, no r&d. Improving imperial tech is heresy. An affront to the machine god. And second, they don't even understand their own tech well enough to innovate even if they wanted to. They regard it with superstition, as though it functions magically, but only when the right prayers are said. The 'machine spirit' is their mythology for explaining what makes machines function. Meanwhile the Tau are laughing their asses off at these cretins, saying " Mmkay! You go ahead and say your magic prayers to your stagnant, forgotten tech. We're gonna just go ahead and research and develop and generally keep improving our tech... Oh look, 2000 years later we've already left your 40,000 year old tech in the dust..."

True, Tau do not use bio tech... because their technology more than compensates. Compare a space marine to a crisis suit. SM only has superior initiative, WS and BS (if the crisis has no targeting array.) Crisis suit has superior mobility, strength, wounds, attacks and heavier, more numerous weapon capacity.

The only thing the Imperium really has on Tau is Warp travel... In all of its perilous, unstable glory.

I've read a lot on this subject and, frankly, I've found the idea of Imperial tech superiority completely unjustifiable.

Comparing a Crisis Suit and a space marine is a bit silly. There are FAR more Space Marines than crisis suits. Hell, I'd go as far as saying crisis suits are more comparable to dreadnoughts. And dreadnoughts win that hands down.

Plus Tau don't need to make their tech NEARLY as mass-produced as the Imperium. Compare the pulse rifle to the lasgun. Yes, the pulse rifle is instantly superior, but there are BILLIONS more guardsmen than fire warriors.

Generally, if the Imperium only had to produce enough technology to support as little as the Tau have, the Imperium would be giving every bugger a lascannon

Well, it's a difference if we talk about the ingame stats, or the backstory of things.
Considering the backstory a space marine would probably rip a Crisis suit appart before it shot the first bullet. >.<

Thing is, the humans allready exceeded their technological peak, the Tau have only just begun their evolution.

I mean the Imperium has allready banned/lost more technology than the Tau ever deveolped.. XD

IPS wrote:Well, it's a difference if we talk about the ingame stats, or the backstory of things.
Considering the backstory a space marine would probably rip a Crisis suit appart before it shot the first bullet. >.<

Thing is, the humans allready exceeded their technological peak, the Tau have only just begun their evolution.

I mean the Imperium has allready banned/lost more technology than the Tau ever deveolped.. XD

IPS speaks truth, we just have to look something everyone is missing, Tau doesnt have Titans, not even something close to it, with the exception of their Air Fleet with the Manta, and their Orbital Space Plants. This speaks much of Imperial Tech, it may be forgotten, it may be old, they may cease to exist on someday since Terminator Armors are no longer into production (As far as i know), but until then, Imperial Tech is superior just for one thing, its older. Tau will eventually get to it, and i think, they might get better technology if they someday develop a Titan-like unit, get their FW genetically improved and mass produce them.

The Imperium may doesnt even know how to make their own tech better, but, hey! they dont even need it and that thing about the machine god and stuff, its their own way to not feel dumber than im sure all Techmarines feel when they start to learn about proper science thinking "What the feth is this gak, prayers? Im just doing my work bitches!"

What a load of...

Archonate wrote:
The only thing the Imperium really has on Tau is Warp travel... In all of its perilous, unstable glory.

And Titans. And ships. And power armour, which is being improved on all the time BTW, thus refuting your first AND your second point. And void shields. And man-portable anti-tank weapons. And so on, and so forth. Yes, the Tau are more advanced in a few select areas (very important areas though), but on the grand scale of things, the Imperium is still well ahead.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Archonate wrote:
The only thing the Imperium really has on Tau is Warp travel... In all of its perilous, unstable glory.

And Titans. And ships. And power armour, which is being improved on all the time BTW, thus refuting your first AND your second point. And void shields. And man-portable anti-tank weapons. And so on, and so forth. Yes, the Tau are more advanced in a few select areas (very important areas though), but on the grand scale of things, the Imperium is still well ahead.

Mmm... Ships? What kind of ships? Tau also ahve Ships, and really large ones i mean, not just fighters, they have the Biggest ship avaible in game, even if its ForgeWorld based. Power Armour wasnt a forgotten technology also? They dont improve, just change into appereance and usefullnes, not like really improving and making major changes, remember, Terminator Armor no longer in production. Tau has manportable antitank weapons, look at broadsides and their Railgun, its ported by 1 Tau, with an improved Power Armour (crisis suit is very similar but better to me), and this one is really getting improved all the time, since they look for it. IDK what a Void Shield is, but since i only know of Emperor Class Titan... ITs Titan Technology, it all goes for the same thing, no point with this.

Fusion Blaster can be seen as a Anti-tank weapon, and they will have the Airbuster for the new codex on normal suits, their Plasma Tech is way better. The difference its not so big as you want it to seem, but indeed, its huge in some ways, when in others, it isnt.

And... STOP THE OFF-TOPIC!!!!! I want so much to speak about this things that i cant stop it unless you do :( it makes me sad to see the thread going in such a bad direction. Kroothawk!!! Place some fake rumors to laugh at and make some random opinion about it!!

I would hardly describe a broadside railgun as man-portable... And you cannot EVER claim that a crisis suit is a superior version of power armor...one of them is worn, the other one is piloted... guess which one is more efficient...

KaiserEddie wrote:
Mmm... Ships? What kind of ships? Tau also ahve Ships, and really large ones i mean, not just fighters, they have the Biggest ship avaible in game, even if its ForgeWorld based.

Space ships. The part where the Imperium has better space ships.

KaiserEddie wrote:Powerr Armour wasnt a forgotten technology also? They dont improve, just change into appereance and usefullnes, not like really improving and making major changes, remember, Terminator Armor no longer in production.

Terminator Armour most certainly is still in production, it just takes long to produce. By default, something increasing in usefulness is an improvement, so you proved yourself wrong there. The Mk. VIII "Errant" Armour is an improvement over Mk. VII "Aquila" armour because it protects vulnerable joints and the neck better.

KaiserEddie wrote:Tau has manportable antitank weapons, look at broadsides and their Railgun, its ported by 1 Tau, with an improved Power Armour (crisis suit is very similar but better to me), and this one is really getting improved all the time, since they look for it.

Last I looked, Broadsides carry Railguns, not Crisis Suits. Regardless, something that requires a battlesuit to move isn't "man-portable", whereas 2 Imperial Guardsmen can easily operate and move a lascannon. The best man-portable anti-tank weapons the Tau have are Rail Rifles for long-range and Fusion Blasters for close range.

KaiserEddie wrote:
Fusion Blaster can be seen as a Anti-tank weapon, and they will have the Airbuster for the new codex on normal suits, their Plasma Tech is way better. The difference its not so big as you want it to seem, but indeed, its huge in some ways, when in others, it isnt.

Yes, the Fusion Blaster is an anti-tank weapon, which is on par with a meltagun. And no, the Tau Plasma tech isn't better, the Imperium just feels that it's worth the extra juice to have a small chance to injure the wielder. If the Tau had better Plasma Technology, they'd have Plasma Weapons more destructive than the Plasma Blastgun, Plasma Annihilator and, in the extreme part of the spectrum, the Nova Cannon utilized by Ordinatus Armageddon. Speaking of Nova Cannons, the ones found on Imperial Starships are railguns, so don't think that the Tau are ahead in that field of technology just because they have it on their ground-based units.

KaiserEddie wrote:IDK what a Void Shield is, but since i only know of Emperor Class Titan... ITs Titan Technology, it all goes for the same thing, no point with this.

Void Shields are the shield systems employed by the Imperium of Man. They use the Warp to nullify ranged attacks, keeping the stuff inside safe.

KaiserEddie wrote:
And... STOP THE OFF-TOPIC!!!!! I want so much to speak about this things that i cant stop it unless you do :( it makes me sad to see the thread going in such a bad direction. Kroothawk!!! Place some fake rumors to laugh at and make some random opinion about it!!

So because I'm proving to you that you're wrong, I need to stop going off-topic, but it's completely fine for you to make an off-topic reply? No deal.

AlmightyWalrus yur getting too serious in this mate :/ take a coffee

Crisis Suit is 1 Man, its a suit, so its an armor, it improves your thougnes and other stuff, its a power armor, im not getting into it really much becouse i really dont see the difference, Crisis Suit are not specified as vehicles, and so i dont see them as one, thats a point of view pretty good for each one, and i dont really care about this one, for the simple thing of this rule on the internet "My Ideals are always superior" and so yu know.

Also, im not too much into the 40k Lore more than what i read on my Tau Codex, the IG codex that a friend lend me for a couple of days, and some random stuff on wikis about Grey Knights, Dark Angels, and Black Templars, also some pre-heresy, and Heresy thing. I only know little, so you know, theres is no real point into getting this much excited on a discussion, since probably you already know more than me, but i have my point to see things, and until i get to yur level of understanding in the 40K IoM story, i cannot argue correctly about it. Everything i said are just my conjectures and all that stuff im not so certain about, and is really on the table game, more than lore based.

Sorry if i angered you, but those are just my points of view about it.

PD: I may also didnt get yur mood about everything you said but, hey, its better to take precautions about it. And since its not very fair for me to ask to not Off-Topic and do so, i`ll stop for now... Until we get to it again