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2018/01/02 02:01:51
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I'm really not fond of the Defiler's weapon options. I like the Forgefiend a lot as an alternative to Predators.
Compared all possible options:
Predators (3):
For 390pts we get 48' 6d3 3dmg shots ~ 6 shots ~ 4 hits = 4x3 = 12dmg
Defiler's (2):
For 360pts we get 2d6 d3 dmg shots + 8 1dmg shots = 3 hits d3 + 4 hits 1dmg = 10dmg
Forgefiend (2):
For 390 pts we get 2d3 d3 dmg + 8 shots 2dmg = 2 hits d3dmg + 4 hits 2dmg = 12dmg
That's raw calculations with DP aura reroll 1's. So for same price we can get 3 Predators which average do 12dmg and have total 36 wounds or 2 Forgefiends which do same amount of damage and have 24 wounds but have 5 daemon save.
Defilers do less shooting damage but have great melee potential for counter-charge, have 28 wounds and cost less than other 2 options.
So that's really hard choice - i think for raw damage output and wounds i would pick Predators BUT i have Changeling so Defilers / Forgefiends will get their -1 to hit from it.
Yes, i can run Predators as Alpha Legion and get same but we're here TS right?
So personally i think i would run Defilers because of their melee potential and okay shooting.
Predators good for gunline shooting and need to be wrapped with horros to prevent deep strike + charge. Defilers do MUCH more in melee and charging them might be really really bad idea.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 02:05:24
2018/01/02 02:12:21
Subject: Re:All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Nature's Minister wrote: I'm pretty much brand new to the game, so if y'all wouldn't mind telling me the reasons why my list is terrible, I'd sure appreciate it.
Your list is okay, i pretty much run same list but with Ahriman instead of second DP and more horrors. You should have possibility to grab and hold objectives.
I think that terminators are too expensive and do nothing for their points (for my games). I usually run 1 unit of 5 with sorcerer in terminator armor so he can deep strike with them and warp time them into 2' charge
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 03:10:56
2018/01/02 03:32:06
Subject: Re:All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Just to chime in and interrupt your list advice (sorry!). The Changeling is apparently being changed (hah!) from giving a -1 to hit to a 6+++. I think I'm disappointed in the change, but I'm not sure.
That's raw calculations with DP aura reroll 1's. So for same price we can get 3 Predators which average do 12dmg and have total 36 wounds or 2 Forgefiends which do same amount of damage and have 24 wounds but have 5 daemon save.
You should also consider the possibility of having prescience casted on them by that same DP!
@Nature Minister's you should considering removing the two Soulreaper cannons on the termis. Yes the stats are good, but so are their special combi bolters. And you'll free up a lot of point.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/02 06:02:37
2018/01/02 06:02:25
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
anticitizen013 wrote: Just to chime in and interrupt your list advice (sorry!). The Changeling is apparently being changed (hah!) from giving a -1 to hit to a 6+++. I think I'm disappointed in the change, but I'm not sure.
My list is pretty simple... The general idea is to have some threatening targets to hopefully detract from the allure of shooting Magnus in the face first turn. The change to the Changeling is a bummer, but should still add a bit of durability. The change to the Brimstones is a straight up nerf but honestly they are just there as a 30pt screen so really I can't complain.
The Decimators and the Fire Raptors stay in Magnus' aura to drastically improve their damage output (each Decimator puts out avg 8 MW before rerolls so they are pretty deadly). Terminators drop within 12" of the enemy but still in the aura to clear the enemy's screen and hopefully close to an objective.
Brimstones eat a charge with the Tzaangors there for counter attacking. Rubrics and sorcerers move up to hold an objective. With the potential changes to smite, their output is potentially reduced unfortunately. Although I tried to future proof this army by making it all Tsons and having a separate det of daemons as I expect that the "legion trait" will do something with the smite rules assuming they do indeed change them. Plus that gives me access to daemon strategems and whatnot which will still affect things like the Decimators and Magnus. Anyway, here is the list. I have been typing this on my phone so I apologize if the formatting is wrong or there are any other weird errors.
Looking at the new leaks, it seems horrors are undergoing the following changes:
-Brimstones nerfed to a 6++
-Blues nerfed to a 5++
-Pink guns (maybe) S:user
-Changeling now 6+++ (but, also gets a Locus if you have a Tzdaemon detachment)
On the flip side you have
-New Stratagem for 1CP allows you to improve a unit's invuln by 1 (unknown if they will have a tyranid-style restriction on their stratagems/stuff so that CSM daemons like Magnus can use it)
-new Locus allowing a possibility at an effective -1 to hit.
Basically everything tzdaemon besides brims, blues, and changeling is getting a buff of some sort. Exalted Flamers are the one I'm particularly excited for as a primarily Tson player as it is an anti-tank weapon and everything anti tank I like.
I think for my screen unit of horrors, I'm going to try and stick it out with Changeling as a buffer, hopefully his new locus makes up for the nerfed aura. I'm planning on running the unit with 20 pinks, 10 brims in the starting unit, with another 10 blues in Split points. Banner upgrade now that the cost has been reduced.
Pinks pop the new daemon stratagem for a 3++, they take the basic casualties. All Mortal Wounds/MOrale casualties go on the brims. Blues Split in to try and rope more units into melee with the screenblob.
Thoughts? A little more point intensive but I also think a little more tactically flexible than the usual brim min squads.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2018/01/02 23:20:03
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/01/06 10:14:32
Subject: Re:All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
It's happening, boiz and gorlz, it's fething happening
Thanks to the new codex, you’ll be able to lead your Tzaangor into battle with the Tzaangor Shaman or support them with disc-riding Tzaangor Enlightened – perfect if you’ve been looking for an excuse to pick up these models for your Tzeentch army. For those of you willing to risk mutation or madness, you’ll also be able to enlist a massive Mutalith Vortex beast to your dazzling ensemble, further expanding the forces the Changer of Ways.
Tzaangor Shaman as a cheap HQ choice and Tzaangor Enlightened as a Fast Attack fills out the most glaring holes in our FOC. And the Mutalith is just a sexy model.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/06 11:00:04
2018/01/06 11:11:58
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
anticitizen013 wrote: Just to chime in and interrupt your list advice (sorry!). The Changeling is apparently being changed (hah!) from giving a -1 to hit to a 6+++. I think I'm disappointed in the change, but I'm not sure.
Ok, so here are the things we gain from the daemons by applying them to TS units.
1-DS magnus or disk ahriman seems like a good way to make use of both of them.
2-locus of conjuration, again via magnus or disk ahriman, just outclasses cabalistic focus so hard its not even funny. costs more, but easily nets over twice the value for guys who cast 3 spells, does not require to be next to other dudes and if you ARE, you are boosting them as well (and as long beta smite rules don't kick in, a rerollable mini-smite is very much worth casting for rubric/scarab. you are highly unlikely to peril if you act smart and only reroll perils, letting simple fails stay fails.)
3-You got a tzeentch psyker around (because why not?), flickering flame can trigger on daemon engines. flicker flame+daemonforge on a forgefiend/decimator/defiler will practically violate anything it points at.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2018/01/06 15:14:39
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I was in a state of flux for what army I wanted to focus on after painting a bunch of small ones (so my wife can learn). I already had a bunch of Tsons so when I got more for Christmas, that was the sign. Then the Daemons codex and now the actual Tsons codex is coming out... I am pretty damn sure I know what I'll be doing in the next few months!
Anyway I'm pretty pumped to see more Tzaangor units in 40k. I love their aesthetic and the whole Silver Tower/Planet of Sorcerers fluff. It will be good to have some cheaper alternatives in a Tsons force. Maybe I'll take our my Fire Raptor (although I have some really cool conversion/green stuff ideas for it whenever it arrives)... Only time will tell!
I'm really liking the synergy between units between the Tzeentch Daemons and Tsons. I think it will be very fluffy while still being fairly competitive (with the right combinations).
Now we have to do the worst thing ever... wait. :(
2018/01/06 17:32:50
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Yea, at this point actual "thousand sons" have 1 troop, 1 elite and 1 hq (beyond generic CSM stuff), while gors get 3 units of their own (or more, is enlightened are dual as skyfire its 4 gors), and a random super-spawn.
This is NOT thousand sons, this is "non-daemons of tzeentch"
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2018/01/06 19:43:01
Subject: Re:All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Now, aside from the “must wait for codex to drop” standpoint, it’s also “wait and see if GW releases 40k Tzaangor Shaman and Enlightened, with a new weapon sprue.” I already have some from AoS, and while I’m not expecting an update on the Shaman, the Enlightened might get an upgrade sprue. I think I’d like to see the options of Enlightened, Skyfire, 40k weapon (all on disk or foot).
2018/01/06 19:43:33
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I am just surprised tsons is getting done before space wolves. I would have bet good money that wasn't going to happen.
And I am with you guys on tsons vs non-deamom tzeench. I don't have anything against tzaangors, they just don't belong in my tson army as a focused part. It would be like playing chaos space marines and using only deamons and deamon princes then saying it's a world eaters army. At some point it's fine, then there is a line that gets crossed and it's just not the same.
Having said that, a deamon detachment to go with my Tsons may go amazing now. I have been stock piling pink horrors and flamers for awhile now. This may just have gotten good.
2018/01/06 22:11:11
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I'm ecstatic that Tzaangors are getting more options for Tsons. While I can understand that people wanted more Rubric related models, you have to understand that Rubrics are few in number and are awkward to reconstitute. Makes sense to me that they'd flesh out their numbers with easy and cheap Tzaangors.
2018/01/07 01:36:54
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
At this point I've accepted that fully elite armies are just straight up non-viable in 8th so I'm not going to besmirch GW offering us "cheap elite" units in the form of Tzaangors. A fully Rubric army just wouldn't work whether Tzaangors existed or not, the addition of the beastmen give us some good screening units that are less chaffy than cultists.
2018/01/07 01:54:09
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
It really depends on their points drop - for now using horrors is MUCH better than Tzaangors. It's very easy to kill them and they cost much more than they do.
We will get something like deepstrike unit 9' away for 1/2 CP so they might become useful.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/07 01:55:51
2018/01/07 01:58:57
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
ArtyomTrityak wrote: It really depends on their points drop - for now using horrors is MUCH better than Tzaangors. It's very easy to kill them and they cost much more than they do.
We will get something like deepstrike unit 9' away for 1/2 CP so they might become useful.
Brimstone Horrors have a 6++ now so they're not as stupid as they were before. Tzaangors are already more durable than Cultists point for point (assuming the presence of the Exalted Sorcerer aura which you will obviously have).
What I'm hoping for is a tzaangor infiltration stratagem so we can take control of the middle of the board.
2018/01/07 14:52:28
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Arachnofiend wrote: At this point I've accepted that fully elite armies are just straight up non-viable in 8th so I'm not going to besmirch GW offering us "cheap elite" units in the form of Tzaangors. A fully Rubric army just wouldn't work whether Tzaangors existed or not, the addition of the beastmen give us some good screening units that are less chaffy than cultists.
Fully rubric can't work mainly because they lack support though.
If we had heavy-weapon rubric teams (full squads of soulreapers?), actual fast moving variation (why can't a rubric with a nasty two-handed weapon on a disk be a thing?), proper TS helbrutes, actual viable psykers (with non trash spells beyond warptime and prescience), buff auras, etc-they COULD work.
You obviously can't make the army work when you don't have any options for it, and basically all you've got is more of the same.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2018/01/08 07:32:53
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Brimstone Horrors have a 6++ now so they're not as stupid as they were before. Tzaangors are already more durable than Cultists point for point (assuming the presence of the Exalted Sorcerer aura which you will obviously have).
What I'm hoping for is a tzaangor infiltration stratagem so we can take control of the middle of the board.
5++ rerolling 1s is not enough imho. They're T4 so not so hard to kill.
With DS stratagem they might be more interesting but still to easy to wipe.
It's very hard to pick what army to collect now I have Tzeench army and TS. Love them both... argh...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/08 07:34:27
2018/01/09 11:41:39
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
So how many Mutaliths are you guys gonna buy? I would love to have 2 in my army just for the looks. Tzaangors on the other hand. Screw those.
stealth992 wrote: ...
Or you can just keep buying chaos everything, and not play them. Just sit alone in your room for years, painting and detailing, and detailing some more. Then keep doing that for years until you own upwards of 10000 points of chaos. Keep shining their swords and sharpening their knives. Then some day, some wonderful day, when a new book comes out that will realize your armies' potential, come out from hiding. Everyone will have thought you had left warhammer 40k for good, but no, you had been training, preparing, and brooding for this moment. Return with such vengeance and hatred that you will not hold back, and you will destroy everything in your path. Like a true chaos crusade, wait for the right moment, then burst forth from the Eye of Terror and unleash your pain on the whole universe. And when they cry and complain that you are OP and that it's not fair. Reassure them that it's true. It isn't fair, but it's what they DESERVE. All of them, each and every one of them deserve to be obliterated into oblivion. And if they ask you to play with a fluffy army, tell them you will do so. But on game day bring the meanest nastiest, ugliest army you can. Give them no opportunity for victory, give them no opportunity for enjoyment. Your only goal is to inflict as much pain and suffering as possible. And when they cry, and they will cry, laugh at them, drink their salty tears, and bath in their sweet, sweet blood.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
