What is GW going to do to fix the new Astra Militarum codex mess in tournaments they have created?

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**brother_b**

So the codex being out 1 week and we can't make any determination about the power of the IG.

A small tournament and all of a sudden the codex looks balanced?

Personally, I think that Tournaments are a horrible place to discuss the "balance" of a codex or army. Soup and specialized and gimmick armies seem all the rage.

The real problem is going to be playing with friends or others at gaming groups or gaming stores; it's going to be playing the small time unofficial tournament or the battle raged across the kitchen table.

For every 1 tournament games there are literally 1000s of regular games played I'd wager. I can tell you with facing the codex that I can not deal with armor and bodies... I don't know how to counter that.

And that, my friend's, is the power of guard. No weaknesses. I'd be more interested in finding a "what works" post than a "bitch about guard/apologize about guard" post.

So, what works?

**Sonsoftherock**

From watching Twitch, table 1 final round was Adeptus Ministorum vs Chaos Daemons. They were showing Table 6? Which was Ultramarines with Guilliman and Razorbacks versus A Raven Guard primaris themed successor chapter (Void Stalkers?).

Top 10 Players were mostly imperial or chaos, no Xenos. Over the weekend, they showed some cracking games 4 out of the 5 featured Guilliman apparently! Ones I caught bits of included Blood Ravens vs Iron Warriors and a mixed Custodes, silent sisters Guilliman list vs something I have forgotten.

**crimsondave**

Yoda79 wrote:
ThePorcupine wrote:
Reasonable discussion? The dude lives for hyperbole. He even suggested people not play or buy their codex to protest GW. What reasonable discussion do you think can come out of him?

Many many people on this forum have a huge hate boner for armies they don't like; armies they perceive to be better than their army. Guard got a shiny new codex and he expected them to sweep every tournament. But lo and behold they're simply competitive, just like chaos, just like marines, just like sisters of battle, and harlequins, and even friggin' ORKS. If those tournament results show anything, it's a very HEALTHY competitive scene. One list isn't dominating everything. In fact, no list is the same. That's incredible! Now are all armies represented? Unfortunately no. And that's a shame, but it's a hell of a lot better than it's been in the past.

So since he couldn't reasonably rant about Guard being OP, he redirects his anger with some non-sensical "community is too tolerant and doesn't demand serious codexes!" rant. Like... what? Community doesn't demand serious codexes? What the hell does that even mean? The community was absolutely doing that. There were numerous threads about what the most OP units are and ideas on how to reign them in.

And, by the way, I think it's silly that the community was so enraged at OP russ tanks and superheavies but I don't see those in that tournament list.

<edit> As you can see, I'm a little riled up about this as well. I'm weary of people screaming that the sky is falling. The title of this very thread assumes that Guard is making a mess of tournaments. It's oh so tiring.

I will say what I want and I won't answer to you pleb. Nor anyone give you the right to proclaim you are better than anyone else or your opinion better. You should not be here junkie. And if you can't stop supporting junk then you are no good for any society. Learn to be demanding in your life but I guess from what I see you are just not worth it. Ignored . And that goes to anyone that don't like it . Mute or don't read. We are not all the same !!

Both of you need to grow up and stop acting like children. If the mods have a hair on thier azz, they'll suspend the both of you. This is a game of toy soldiers for Christ's sake!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

brother_b wrote:
So the codex being out 1 week and we can't make any determination about the power of the IG.

A small tournament and all of a sudden the codex looks balanced?

Personally, I think that Tournaments are a horrible place to discuss the "balance" of a codex or army. Soup and specialized and gimmick armies seem all the rage.

The real problem is going to be playing with friends or others at gaming groups or gaming stores; it's going to be playing the small time unofficial tournament or the battle raged across the kitchen table.

For every 1 tournament games there are literally 1000s of regular games played I'd wager. I can tell you with facing the codex that I can not deal with armor and bodies... I don't know how to counter that.

And that, my friend's, is the power of guard. No weaknesses. I'd be more interested in finding a "what works" post than a "bitch about guard/apologize about guard" post.

So, what works?

The codex is OP. That's obvious. From what I've seen, the cheese vs cheese isn't as broken as the friendly lists, which, to me, makes the problem worse. I don't know what the answer is other than serious point increases.

As a side note, there are several IG players here that agree that the codex is OP. I really wish the rest would stop pretending nothing is wrong. It's embarrassing.

**Gunzhard**

What's embarrassing actually is the nerd panic "Sky is falling" freak out we get with every edition, and probably every 3rd or 4th codex release - since the dawn of 40k.

Fact is, (yes the fact) there is no real data yet. It's too early.

It might be broken as heck, but nothing is "obvious" yet, and frankly I think new Death Guard can do all the things people are crying about, just as well or better.

They have several great options for bubble wrap, durable as heck troops and armor.

**Tyel**

Smite spam is clearly a problem.
Malefic Lords (and Primaris Psykers tbh) should be considerably more expensive. They could easily be doubled in cost, perhaps in the case of the Malefics even tripled, and they would be okay HQ options. Just not comically undercosted.

Taking two lords of war in 1000 points is a bit on the nose.

**Alpharius**

IN THREAD GENERAL WARNING

FINAL WARNING

RULE#1 NEEDS TO BE FOLLOWED IN THIS THREAD - AND THROUGHOUT THE FORUM - OR THIS THREAD WILL BE LOCKED AND THE OFFENDING PARTIES WILL BE SUSPENDED.

**crimsondave**

Gunzhard wrote:
What's embarrassing actually is the nerd panic "Sky is falling" freak out we get with every edition, and probably every 3rd or 4th codex release - since the dawn of 40k.

Fact is, (yes the fact) there is no real data yet. It's too early.

It might be broken as heck, but nothing is "obvious" yet, and frankly I think new Death Guard can do all the things people are crying about, just as well or better.

They have several great options for bubble wrap, durable as heck troops and armor.

If you've got a friendly list I can take against anything other than Death Guard with LOWs (and other IG) that has any chance of losing and isn't all Tank or some silly spam I'm all ears.

**Twoshoes23**

Gunzhard wrote:
What's embarrassing actually is the nerd panic "Sky is falling" freak out we get with every edition, and probably every 3rd or 4th codex release - since the dawn of 40k.

Fact is, (yes the fact) there is no real data yet. It's too early.

It might be broken as heck, but nothing is "obvious" yet, and frankly I think new Death Guard can do all the things people are crying about, just as well or better.

They have several great options for bubble wrap, durable as heck troops and armor.

Who will remember this thread in a year, when all (maybe?) the codex's are out and we can compare each on equal footing. Right now is a lot of crying cause Guard got to go first before a lot of others. Also, kinda a little peeved that non-tournament players have to suffer the complaints of tourny cheese spammers. How to balance for General Spam-a-lots?

**Waaaghpower**

Twoshoes23 wrote:
Gunzhard wrote:
What's embarrassing actually is the nerd panic "Sky is falling" freak out we get with every edition, and probably every 3rd or 4th codex release - since the dawn of 40k.

Fact is, (yes the fact) there is no real data yet. It's too early.

It might be broken as heck, but nothing is "obvious" yet, and frankly I think new Death Guard can do all the things people are crying about, just as well or better.

They have several great options for bubble wrap, durable as heck troops and armor.

Who will remember this thread in a year, when all (maybe?) the codex's are out and we can compare each on equal footing. Right now is a lot of crying cause Guard got to go first before a lot of others. Also, kinda a little peeved that non-tournament players have to suffer the complaints of tourny cheese spammers. How to balance for General Spam-a-lots?

You're saying this as though Guard wasn't already winning tournaments easily pre-codex. Guard are better than any current codex by a pretty huge margin, with the exception of maybe a Guilliman-based Marine army, where they are better by a smaller, but still noteworthy, margin.

**Quickjager**

Twoshoes23 wrote:
Gunzhard wrote:
What's embarrassing actually is the nerd panic "Sky is falling" freak out we get with every edition, and probably every 3rd or 4th codex release - since the dawn of 40k.

Fact is, (yes the fact) there is no real data yet. It's too early.

It might be broken as heck, but nothing is "obvious" yet, and frankly I think new Death Guard can do all the things people are crying about, just as well or better.

They have several great options for bubble wrap, durable as heck troops and armor.

Who will remember this thread in a year, when all (maybe?) the codex's are out and we can compare each on equal footing. Right now is a lot of crying cause Guard got to go first before a lot of others. Also, kinda a little peeved that non-tournament players have to suffer the complaints of tourny cheese spammers. How to balance for General Spam-a-lots?

We have 6 codices out right now.

IG
SM
DG
AdMech
GK
Chaos

SM codex looked to be a real offender with point drops everywhere, but the real broken stuff like AC Razorbacks and Guilliman were untouched, so they remained dominant. It became our baseline of comparison

Then GK and Chaos, GK got shafted, Chaos got some cool stuff that was strong individually, but it was obvious that the codex strength was about par with SM.
Then AdMech who got shafted.
And we have DG who are weaker than Chaos, about the same level as GK, with Mortarion being able to push them to Chaos level.

Then we got IG who are clearly broken.

You don't need data. If you do then go to the 47 page thread that shows INDEX IG were super dominant even against Codex armies. The point is we DO have other codices out to compare to and IG is BROKEN compared to them.

**Twoshoes23**

Well the irony here is Guard function the same as they did in 7th, commissars are the same and priests actually have fallen to the way side. They are not broken as you put it, just the first horde army in a perceived horde edition. Lasguns wounding on 6s 3pt conscripts bubblewrap is not new. Smite spam I'll concede is brand new and could use some nerfage.

My point is guard didn't get buffed as much as the edition rules changes just suited Guard spam better. Earthshakers were useless in 7th where now they are exactly what they should be. Now Guard gets a codex that does buff a lot. That doesn't make it broken though. Just puts the ball in your court ( non Guard) to out spam/cheese conscripts, earthshaker/mortar smite whatever. Meanwhile, the non tournament players who are exited to finally have regimental doctrines unique relics etc. I suppose that is besides the point though.

Broken against non-horde armies by being horde spam doesn't exclude responsibility on the 5 other codices already released. And that is why data is needed because it will take time to adjust to said meta. Main point here is wait for other horde codex's (orks, nids) to judge. As I said in a year when we read this again we may laugh at the new Broken Waaaagh spam lists. Balancing on the fly should be done sparingly compared to balancing from a birds eye view( when all codex's are out and gw AND the community as a whole can decide).

**KTar**

I was reading this thread and it's just full of malice and venom. Most people here need to just chill down. Wait for more codexes so come out. I've seen terrain make even orcs beat the new guard.

If you want to complain that much do two things instead either play lots of games against them/ or as them to figure out their weaknesses, or two just done play any games with them.

I can say I've never lost in this edition vs guard, but have lost hard against tau, so tau is broken. Others can say that about other armies. Just learn to face your fears people or run away from them, but bickering here doesn't do anything.

**Quickjager**

Twoshoes23 wrote:
Well the irony here is Guard function the same as they did in 7th, commissars are the same and priests actually have fallen to the way side. They are not broken as you put it, just the first horde army in a perceived horde edition. Lasguns wounding on 6s 3pt conscripts bubblewrap is not new. Smite spam I'll concede is brand new and could use some nerfage.

My point is guard didn't get buffed as much as the edition rules changes just suited Guard spam better. Earthshakers were useless in 7th where now they are exactly what they should be. Now Guard gets a codex that does buff a lot. That doesn't make it broken though. Just puts the ball in your court ( non Guard) to out spam/cheese conscripts, earthshaker/mortar smite whatever. Meanwhile, the non tournament players who are exited to finally have regimental doctrines unique relics etc. I suppose that is besides the point though.

Broken against non-horde armies by being horde spam doesn't exclude responsibility on the 5 other codices already released. And that is why data is needed because it will take time to adjust to said meta. Main point here is wait for other horde codex's (orks, nids) to judge. As I said in a year when we read this again we may laugh at the new Broken Waaaagh spam lists. Balancing on the fly should be done sparingly compared to balancing from a birds eye view( when all codex's are out and gw AND the community as a whole can decide).

Yes lets wait a year while all those Non-WAAC IG players have fun.

Waiting a year doesn't solve a problem that exists today. I'm sure those Scatbikes got weaker after a year you know?

**Gunzhard**

Quickjager wrote:
Twoshoes23 wrote:
Gunzhard wrote:
What's embarrassing actually is the nerd panic "Sky is falling" freak out we get with every edition, and probably every 3rd or 4th codex release - since the dawn of 40k.

Fact is, (yes the fact) there is no real data yet. It's too early.

It might be broken as heck, but nothing is "obvious" yet, and frankly I think new Death Guard can do all the things people are crying about, just as well or better.

They have several great options for bubble wrap, durable as heck troops and armor.

Who will remember this thread in a year, when all (maybe?) the codex's are out and we can compare each on equal footing. Right now is a lot of crying cause Guard got to go first before a lot of others. Also, kinda a little peeved that non-tournament players have to suffer the complaints of tourny cheese spammers. How to balance for General Spam-a-lots?

We have 6 codices out right now.

IG
SM
DG
AdMech
GK
Chaos

SM codex looked to be a real offender with point drops everywhere, but the real broken stuff like AC Razorbacks and Guilliman were untouched, so they remained dominant. It became our baseline of comparison

Then GK and Chaos, GK got shafted, Chaos got some cool stuff that was strong individually, but it was obvious that the codex strength was about par with SM.
Then AdMech who got shafted.
And we have DG who are weaker than Chaos, about the same level as GK, with Mortarion being able to push them to Chaos level.

Then we got IG who are clearly broken.

You don't need data. If you do then go to the 47 page thread that shows INDEX IG were super dominant even against Codex armies. The point is we DO have other codices out to compare to and IG is BROKEN compared to them.

Your opinions are based on nothing though, certainly not any actual data. GK got shafted? DG weaker than CSM? Hah what??

IG Index with Imperial Soup "dominated" a very small sample prior to some newer books having a chance to enter the meta.

This nerd panic "sky is falling" reaction has happened several times a year, every year, since the early days of 40k, seriously it's ridiculous every time. Sorry but it is, you can probably look back at a good chunk of years right here on dakka.

Death guard are gonna be very strong. Everything you think is "op" with IG, bubble wrap and armor, DG can do as well or better, with more variety.

**Quickjager**

That's a bold claim, Gunzhard; lets see it play out.

Have yet to be wrong. Sometimes it really is that easy to call out stuff, like Guilliman, Azrael's 4++ parking lot, Conscripts, Index mortars, etc. Sometimes it takes a bit of thinking like some of the last ed. Space Wolf lists.

But I'm sure not surprised it is IG players saying "its OK lets see how it shakes out." Just like Eldar and Wave Serpents.

As for my opinions, yes GK did get shafted. Base edition rules screw with the one interesting part of the army. Basic troops got point INCREASES in the codex when they were already underperforming. Librarians got their smite and equipment choices nerfed. In many ways the only improvements were that 4 new unit choices were added. But only 2 will see regular play. 1 of those is a conversion of a kit many find ugly. Question my opinions on anything you want. But GK? I know my gak, and any of the GK players on this forum will back me up.

**Otto von Bludd**

Gunzhard wrote:
What's embarrassing actually is the nerd panic "Sky is falling" freak out we get with every edition, and probably every 3rd or 4th codex release - since the dawn of 40k.

Fact is, (yes the fact) there is no real data yet. It's too early.

It might be broken as heck, but nothing is "obvious" yet, and frankly I think new Death Guard can do all the things people are crying about, just as well or better.

They have several great options for bubble wrap, durable as heck troops and armor.

Exactly. What's really embarrassing is to see people jumping to totally undemonstrable conclusions, and it's more embarrassing to have these same people lashing out at those who simply refuse pass judgement until there is actual data available. It's downright juvenile, at this early point in time after the codex release, to say things like "the codex is OP, everyone knows this" because no, you do not and can not know this without comparative data. Juvenile is indeed an appropriate word because this is how children reason, they jump to conclusions based on "feels" instead of actual information.

**Quickjager**

And yet I'm not the one insulting the other side... fascinating...

**Otto von Bludd**

Quickjager wrote:
And yet I'm not the one insulting the other side... fascinating...

What did I say that was insulting?

**Quickjager**

Nothing, just... you know.

Quickjager wrote:

But I'm sure not surprised it is IG players saying "its OK lets see how it shakes out." Just like Eldar and Wave Serpents.

**Waaaghpower**

Quickjager wrote:
That's a bold claim, Gunzhard; lets see it play out.

Have yet to be wrong. Sometimes it really is that easy to call out stuff, like Guilliman, Azrael's 4++ parking lot, Conscripts, Index mortars, etc. Sometimes it takes a bit of thinking like some of the last ed. Space Wolf lists.

But I'm sure not surprised it is IG players saying "its OK lets see how it shakes out." Just like Eldar and Wave Serpents.

As for my opinions, yes GK did get shafted. Base edition rules screw with the one interesting part of the army. Basic troops got point INCREASES in the codex when they were already underperforming. Librarians got their smite and equipment choices nerfed. In many ways the only improvements were that 4 new unit choices were added. But only 2 will see regular play. 1 of those is a conversion of a kit many find ugly. Question my opinions on anything you want. But GK? I know my gak, and any of the GK players on this forum will back me up.

To follow up on this:
Grey Knights are so far the only index to get significant nerfs and price increases rather than the other way around, despite not being an overperforming army pre-codex. Most of our relics are lackluster or an outright joke that are nowhere near as good as anything other armies get. (Our best relic gives 5+ FNP, to one infantry model.) We've got a handful of decent Strategems, but none of them are particularly great with the exception of being able to cheese the +1 Invuln strategem for 2++ saves on a single model. We've got one decent Warlord Trait (First into the Fray) that is only really helpful if you want to run a melee-heavy army.
The ONLY buff we got was +1 to psychic tests, but that's not nearly enough to make GK a viable army overall.

**TangoTwoBravo**

Oh Noes!!!! A new IG Codex!!!!

**N.I.B.**

imo Maelstrom (Malefic spam) should be discounted when discussing faction balance. Many tournaments around the world don't allow Forgeworld units.

Forgeworld isn't play tested to the same standard as 40K codex units. GW forced FW to update their rules to 8th ed, they did a hasty, poor job of it.

**Waaaghpower**

N.I.B. wrote:
imo Maelstrom (Malefic spam) should be discounted when discussing faction balance. Many tournaments around the world don't allow Forgeworld units.

Forgeworld isn't play tested to the same standard as 40K codex units. GW forced FW to update their rules to 8th ed, they did a hasty, poor job of it.

And yet Forgeworld are NOT responsible for Guilliman, Conscripts, Magnus+Morty, Assassins, the Guard codex in general...
FW errs on the side of underpowered this edition, almost to a fault.

**Vaktathi**

N.I.B. wrote:
imo Maelstrom (Malefic spam) should be discounted when discussing faction balance. Many tournaments around the world don't allow Forgeworld units.

Few of the big/good ones did beyond 5E.

Forgeworld isn't play tested to the same standard as 40K codex units.

This implies the main studio does meaningful playtesting. We have many editions and decades to show the contrary. At least FW tried and used to send out experimental rules and adjust them based on feedback and would take email questions and publish them as errata (some of mine were back in 5E/6E). One will notice that in editions where taking FW was never an issue, FW heavy lists never really dominated anything. FW stuff make a sprinkling of appearances, but certainly weren't required or even common beyond fad lists that would last a couple of months. Forgeworld units and armies certainly didn't dominate 7E tournament tables, mainly Codex units and armies did.

GW forced FW to update their rules to 8th ed, they did a hasty, poor job of it.

GW in general appears to have done so too...and looking at the IG stuff people are complaining about here, one will notice that Forgeworld stuff isn't making many appearances.

**Tyel**

The problem with the Guard book is that you can model the results. Most stuff is too cheap and this results in a very high expected damage output per unit (often approaching 40% points return on normal dice). Its then quite easy to see this go up further with orders and stratagems. Which means if the Guard player goes first they are probably going to kill a huge amount of your army before you get to do anthing.

This isn't true for everything. Its hard to get above 20% with Sentinels for instance. But few are probably itching to spam them.

The real problem is that as damage ootential goes up across the board (and yes this applies to GK and Ad Mech) the first turn is becoming more and more important. This is where Conscripts come in as they are one of the few cost effective bubblewraps which can interfere with deep strike/infiltrate etc and make that first turn strike less effective.

I'd certainly like to see some statistics from GTs based on winners versus going first.

**Waaaghpower**

Tyel wrote:
.
The real problem is that as damage ootential goes up across the board (and yes this applies to GK and Ad Mech) the first turn is becoming more and more important. This is where Conscripts come in as they are one of the few cost effective bubblewraps which can interfere with deep strike/infiltrate etc and make that first turn strike less effective.

Just gonna pop in here to say... Not really on the Grey Knights. We did get more damage potential in some areas, but not across the board - Our Librarians got significantly worse, and our basic troops got more expensive. Other options *technically* got better, but not by a lot - Our basic 'Chapter Tactic' marginally increases psychic potential, GMDKs are dope, but that's really about it. So things technically got slightly better, but not in any way that really matters too much.
(Heck, all of the best strategems could be gained just by bringing along a detachment of Space Marines, since we can share anything that has the Adeptus Astartes keyword... All we're missing is Psibolt ammo, which is really expensive and only worth it if you plan units specifically to use it.)

**Kdash**

Niiru wrote:
GhostRecon wrote:
Other dominant lists I've seen from other tourneys that occurred this weekend (though they were only 3 rounds):

SoCal Open Primer was won by Brandon Grant using a Conscript spam (iirc he won the NOVA Open too, using a similar list) - list.

Lords of War 15 was won by a Malefic Lord spamming Renegades and Heretics list.

Anyone know any of the entries from the ongoing first heat of the GT in nottingham? The only lists I know of are the ones from GW employees that are taking part.

Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics won heat 1 using BobbyG and Assault Cannon Razorback spam essentially. He basically tabled or got max points in every single game throughout the event. (In fact the top 6 players going into the final game were all on max points)
Those lists were -
1 x SoB
1 x Raven Guard
1 x Chaos
2 x BobbyG Ultramarines
1 BobbyG and Celestine

(If I’m remembering the above incorrectly, feel free to update!)
The Raven Guard list beat a BobbyG list in the final game due to it being the Relic (why why why is this still part of tournaments?) and he managed to seize. Basically, meant the Smurfs couldn’t win right from the first turn. Was an interesting Raven Guard list though – Interecessors, Agressors and Dreadnoughts (2 Contemptors, 1 Contemptor Mortis and 1 Mortis), Hellblasters and a Primaris Captain and Librarian along with a Stormtalon. I think a lot of people were surprised it won all 5 games with max points.

One thing to note – Lawrence managed to table an Astra Militarum list in 4 turns in game 4. It was a Super Heavy spam list I believe.

From what I gather there was only 1 Dark Eldar, 1 Ork, 1 Harlequin list there. I don’t think there were any Tau or Eldar. There were 2 pure Admech lists as well that apparently did reasonably. There were however lots of Magnus, Mortarion and BobbyG lists. Over 20% of the lists were Space Marines (1st and last place went to the Marines

)

Warhammer Community will be posting a load of details and stats from the event over the course of this week apparently.

**tneva82**

Vaktathi wrote:
This implies the main studio does meaningful playtesting. We have many editions and decades to show the contrary

What and after all the dakka was chanting how 8th ed is going to be most balanced and playtested edition eva when it was released...

So same old in 8th ed it seems.

**Kdash**

Sonsoftherock wrote:
From watching Twitch, table 1 final round was Adeptus Ministorum vs Chaos Daemons. They were showing Table 6? Which was Ultramarines with Guilliman and Razorbacks versus A Raven Guard primaris themed successor chapter (Void Stalkers?).

Top 10 Players were mostly imperial or chaos, no Xenos. Over the weekend, they showed some cracking games 4 out of the 5 featured Guilliman apparently! Ones I caught bits of included Blood Ravens vs Iron Warriors and a mixed Custodes, silent sisters Guilliman list vs something I have forgotten.

The twitch stream showed table 3, as table 1 didnt want to be on it and both players on table 2 had already been on the stream. All 6 players were on max points at that point.
The successor chapter was the Rift Stalkers. Pretty neat looking white scheme to (even if it defies my logic of Raven Guard = Stealthy = White?!?!?!?!!?

)

Yeah, the only time BobbyG wasn't on the stream was in game 4 where they showed that Blood Raven's vs Iron Warriors game.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

N.I.B. wrote:
imo Maelstrom (Malefic spam) should be discounted when discussing faction balance. Many tournaments around the world don't allow Forgeworld units.

I was under the impression that most major tournaments, ITC and otherwise, now allow forgeworld, albeit with some power level restrictions.

I know some places don’t allow it, for example, Canada seems to almost have a blanket ban on it, but I thought the majority were now allowing it?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quickjager wrote:

Yes lets wait a year while all those Non-WAAC IG players have fun.

Waiting a year doesn't solve a problem that exists today. I'm sure those Scatbikes got weaker after a year you know?

Depending on what gets a codex and what doesn't i reckon we are looking at a completion date of around July at the max based on the 2 a month concept.
Now, this also includes codices for certain factions that likely won’t get a standard alone one. (I.E Ynnari, SoB, Renegade Knights)

**Elemental**

Gunzhard wrote:
What's embarrassing actually is the nerd panic "Sky is falling" freak out we get with every edition, and probably every 3rd or 4th codex release - since the dawn of 40k.

Fact is, (yes the fact) there is no real data yet. It's too early.

How long do you think it should be before something can be called overpowered? Be as specific as possible.