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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
To be fair, the quality of many GW/FW models is fantastic compared to others.


Infinity models are certainly high-quality, but they are far from being as modular and customizable as GW/FW models.

Have a crack at nailing down an objective definition for wargaming miniatures, or plastic kits if you prefer, of what quality consists of. IME most of the time people try, what's actually objectively quantifiable doesn't mark GW out as all that special. This goes double for FW who aren't necessarily the market leader when it comes to QC.

Given the nature of Infinity models, they're essentially equivalent to GW characters, who also lack modularity and customization, they're just metal rather than single sprue plastics. Compare something like a Perry or Frostgrave or Warlord or WGF kit to a GW unit kit and the gap isn't al, that noticeable, outside of subjective elements.

It's hard to compare price points when there's not much out there like it.

There's any number of modular HIPs kits out there these days for different games and manufacturers, not to mention stuff from static modeling etc which can also be considered analogous, it's easy to draw comparisons, but it's apparently pretty tricky to avoid subjectivity.

Warlord Games.
Modular, varied, extra equipment, well detailed and far, far, far cheaper.
Boom.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Warlord Games.
Modular, varied, extra equipment, well detailed and far, far, far cheaper.
Boom.

I wasn't particularly a fan of the models, though I did get a good chuckle at the Kelly's Heroes models.

With modularity for customisation, that's only a boon if:
a. the game is designed with such customisation in mind
b. you don't mind paying extra for the bits you won't use
c. both of the above

With my Tyranids, I've got enough extra Gaunt arms to fill multiple craft bead organisers. When I played, I tried hunting around at various bits sellers to get the Gaunts without the arms to use the up and it was never cheaper, because the Gaunt bodies are what people wanted. Same with Carnifex parts.

I'd have been happier paying $5 less and getting no extra parts, but unfortunately GW designed their game around having lots of options, and the sprues around having those options. Then the added issue of poses being rather unnatural or static to accommodate those extra parts and after the 30th Gaunt - because the game is designed around buying half a dozen of the same kit - it all starts to get rather boring.

With Infinity and Malifaux, the models are single pose with no options (worth noting CB are starting to do options now with alternate arms). But the poses are much more characterful. Same with Malifaux, which has the added benefit of being HIPS plastic, just like GW. They also designed their game so you don't need to buy a kit more than once outside of some fringe cases. So not only do you get characterfully posed models, you don't get bored painting the same pose twice.

The 'benefits' of how GW design their kits don't translate to other games because they don't design their games the same way as GW.

What kind of bits do you have?

 -Loki- wrote:

With my Tyranids, I've got enough extra Gaunt arms to fill multiple craft bead organisers. When I played, I tried hunting around at various bits sellers to get the Gaunts without the arms to use the up and it was never cheaper, because the Gaunt bodies are what people wanted. Same with Carnifex parts.

Heh, back when I was converting Death Guard (claws! bio-weapons!) I had a lot of left-over gaunt bodies - though some of them got cannibalized for short claws and hooves. But I guess I'm a rare exception.

 master of ordinance wrote:
What kind of bits do you have?

Devourers, Spinefists, all Carnifex arms from 2 Carnifex minus the Scything Talons and Devourers. Basically the stuff not worth using in 6th edition.

Get selling to BFG players, thats an entire fleet you have there.

Eh, not bothered sorting through it all. Just saying, I'd rather not have had to buy it in the first place.

Pink Horror wrote:
First, is it logical to buy a TV? It's just going to waste your time. You could use that money for food, or to retire earlier.

That's very quickly edging towards a "There are starving children in Africa!" argument. Don't do that. Relative privation is a fallacy for a reason.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
To be fair, the quality of many GW/FW models is fantastic compared to others. Infinity models are certainly high-quality, but they are far from being as modular and customizable as GW/FW models.

It's hard to compare price points when there's not much out there like it.

If many people's touting of GW's advantage is the models customisability, then this is really a statement that's laid in the past. Far too many of their recent kits (looking at you DG releases!) can only be built in one way and lack the separate arms and shoulder pads etc. kits in the past had.

All of the SM/CSM, Ork/Orc kits were once upon a time all compatible with one another with zero conversion work. This is not the case today.

This lack of customisability has bled its way into the rules. Want a true Nurgle Chaos Lord? Sorry mate, we don't actually make one so there's no real rules for him. Want a bike for your Chaplain? Nope sorry.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
To be fair, the quality of many GW/FW models is fantastic compared to others. Infinity models are certainly high-quality, but they are far from being as modular and customizable as GW/FW models.

It's hard to compare price points when there's not much out there like it.

This is THE main reason I fell in love with GW models ages ago. When I was collecting Empire for WHFB, I could use any of the kits for easy conversions and customization. When they released their multi part plastic character kits I was in heaven. The only real snag I ran into was that GW couldn't decide what scale to make everything in, so sometimes you had bits from different kits that were in a totally different scale and didn't always go together well. This is also a primary driver for collecting (old)Space Marines; you can take all the kits and just convert away for ages.

That said, this is not very true today. A few of their new kits are like the old ones, but really most of the new stuff is not made like this. A good portion of their AoS releases are very much mono pose, and to my knowledge their characters these days might have a weapon option or two but they aren't always compatible with each other or with other kits without a bit more work.

GW has obviously made a deliberate decision to go for more dynamic poses and such at the expense of easy customization these days.

The only company I know of that has a large and expanding range of multi part plastic kits is Warlord Games. They still release many things in metal, but the number of plastic kits available for Bolt Action and (slowly) Gates of Antares is impressive. Their newest stuff (like the Waffen-SS kit just released) is excellent and markedly improved over their earlier ones as well. It's difficult to directly compare them as the scale is so different, but I'd put the overall quality up there with the GW kits that actually allow for the kind of customization and posing the Warlord kits allow.

 -Loki- wrote:


I'd have been happier paying $5 less and getting no extra parts, but unfortunately GW designed their game around having lots of options, and the sprues around having those options. Then the added issue of poses being rather unnatural or static to accommodate those extra parts and after the 30th Gaunt - because the game is designed around buying half a dozen of the same kit - it all starts to get rather boring.

Of course often enough those extra bits don't warrant new sprue as they can be fit to existing sprues so you wouldn't get 5$ off from the box anyway. Good if 2$ and then you would be out of extra bits that can be made to other models saving plenty of cash.

tneva82 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:


I'd have been happier paying $5 less and getting no extra parts, but unfortunately GW designed their game around having lots of options, and the sprues around having those options. Then the added issue of poses being rather unnatural or static to accommodate those extra parts and after the 30th Gaunt - because the game is designed around buying half a dozen of the same kit - it all starts to get rather boring.

Of course often enough those extra bits don't warrant new sprue as they can be fit to existing sprues so you wouldn't get 5$ off from the box anyway. Good if 2$ and then you would be out of extra bits that can be made to other models saving plenty of cash.

But the whole point of Loki's post is that to make those bits workable into full models, you have to spend almost as much as an entire new kit off the 2nd hand market, because everyone wants to use bodies to spread the kit as far as possible but no one wants the extra arms. There are certainly a few cases where you pay for a ridiculous amount of extra parts on the sprue (Space Marine Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans for example), which while it's nice to have those options, and makes for a great kit, more than half is wasted space in the box. If someone wanted a Vanguard box to spread some power weapons through their other Marine units, they'd have to spend as much as a whole new unit in order to do so. Compare this to the bits packs GW used to do (and still do for things like shoulder pads, showing it's viable financially) where you could buy 10 of a certain weapon for $20Aus or so, and you would be easily halving a 2 sprue kit, reducing the production costs of that as well

What GW has going for it is a flavor and a style.

If you do not like the style, or are even neutral about it, then GW is nowhere near reasonably priced.

If you look at their prices as toy soldiers, made of mass produced plastic, they are not worth it.

If you are a member of their style cult tribe, then they are worth it, I guess?

Rules wise... GW has never made great rules - even for the games that I really, really like. (I like Mordheim better than any other tabletop game, even if the rules are kinda clunky, and the balance is poor at best.)

I really like Kings of War - which is a much better balanced game.

But given the choice of playing KoW and Mordheim, Mordheim will win almost always.

I think the only time I can remember thinking 'Wow! those are reasonably priced!' for GW miniatures was back when they started releasing nice big boxes of poseable plastic Empire Halberdiers and swordsmen - which were nice figures, and inexpensive even when compared to miniatures by other companies. *EDIT* That's a lie - there have been boxed starter sets for Warhammer Fantasy that I thought were excellent value for money.

And I bought a lot of those old multipose plastics.


The Auld Grump

I am still ok more or less with GW's prices for LOTR/Hobbit line (being a Tolkien fan helps) but the other games the models are just not good IMO. I am partial to my overlords, but I hate their ships,. so just stick to ground pounding.

 thekingofkings wrote:
I am still ok more or less with GW's prices for LOTR/Hobbit line (being a Tolkien fan helps) but the other games the models are just not good IMO. I am partial to my overlords, but I hate their ships,. so just stick to ground pounding.

You are aware that GW both reduced the model count and increased the prices of virtually the entire LOTR line. You are literally paying more for less these days.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:
I am still ok more or less with GW's prices for LOTR/Hobbit line (being a Tolkien fan helps) but the other games the models are just not good IMO. I am partial to my overlords, but I hate their ships,. so just stick to ground pounding.

You are aware that GW both reduced the model count and increased the prices of virtually the entire LOTR line. You are literally paying more for less these days.

they literally did the "flashgitz" skit of double the price for half the models BUT I am still paying only about $2 per model instead of $1 per, so I am not too hurt by it, it still makes my 12 pack of orcs on par with buying bones and deep cuts. Cavalry and finecast/metal are still about the same price they were before, really I only got hit on plastic infantry, but they also made the standard "warband" only 12 instead of making it the 24 from before. and I am still paying less than say for an AoS unit. The hobbit line is closer to $3 per but still in line with what I am paying for bones or deep cuts as well.

So you're ok with a 100% price increase?

Well good for you I suppose. However a lot of people don't like paying more for less.

 Rygnan wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:


I'd have been happier paying $5 less and getting no extra parts, but unfortunately GW designed their game around having lots of options, and the sprues around having those options. Then the added issue of poses being rather unnatural or static to accommodate those extra parts and after the 30th Gaunt - because the game is designed around buying half a dozen of the same kit - it all starts to get rather boring.

Of course often enough those extra bits don't warrant new sprue as they can be fit to existing sprues so you wouldn't get 5$ off from the box anyway. Good if 2$ and then you would be out of extra bits that can be made to other models saving plenty of cash.

But the whole point of Loki's post is that to make those bits workable into full models, you have to spend almost as much as an entire new kit off the 2nd hand market, because everyone wants to use bodies to spread the kit as far as possible but no one wants the extra arms. There are certainly a few cases where you pay for a ridiculous amount of extra parts on the sprue (Space Marine Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans for example), which while it's nice to have those options, and makes for a great kit, more than half is wasted space in the box. If someone wanted a Vanguard box to spread some power weapons through their other Marine units, they'd have to spend as much as a whole new unit in order to do so. Compare this to the bits packs GW used to do (and still do for things like shoulder pads, showing it's viable financially) where you could buy 10 of a certain weapon for $20Aus or so, and you would be easily halving a 2 sprue kit, reducing the production costs of that as well

It's more financially viable to do these "combo" boxes. Being able to get hold of spare Gaunt bodies to make more models isn't the point, so they've not failed at that. If Termagants and Hormagaunts, or Lion Chariots and Elven Chariots, or whatever you want to talk about, were separate boxes, then stores would need to stock twice as many boxes, or be twice as likely to not have what you want in stock. That drives up the amount of manufacturing capacity required, additional transportation, warehousing, packaging, etc. I very much doubt making them separate kits would decrease the retail cost of either one at all. Just throw out the leftover bits on the sprues when you've built them.

I understand why they do it, but it sucks having to pay more for a kit because it "makes three kits" when it actually doesn't, and you end up not using most of the parts.

And that concept only falls apart when you consider they make limited option kits (Tartaros, Cataphractii & Blight Lord Terminators) that only build one kit, the latter in quite a mono-pose way, and they cost more than, say, the Deathwing kit that makes (1 of) 3 different units.

Comparing them across the industry isn't the right thing to do with GW prices. Rather, compare GW prices against Themselves, and they fall apart.

Obviously, we have the prices raising over time- and as was shown in the first post, they've gone up faster than inflation. But even that isn't the big issue.

The big issue, in my mind, is what happens when you play the $40 game. What can you get for about forty bucks from GW?

A starter set- they come with terrain, dice, some rules and +/-15 minis.

A Necromunda gang (10 minis)

A Blood Bowl Team (12 minis)

A Tactical Squad (10 minis)

Four sets of easy to build regular marines (12 mionopose minis all together).


Ok- so far, things have been pretty consistent. The starter set is cheap, but $40 is landing you about 10-12 human sized minis the rest of the time? Monopose minis seem to be 3.33, while kits with more options are $4 per mini.


Alternatively, you could get

A 5 marine 'specialist' squad (Assault Marines, Veterans, Devestators, Primaris Marines) (5 minis) Some of these are larger than tac marines, and some are resin, but some are not, but we're quite suddenly at $8 per mini.

Two resin characters (they average $20 each) Single pose

1 plastic character (1 minis, $30-35). Single Pose

We've actually reached an order of magnitude more expensive (from $3-4 for one mini to $30-40).


It is clear that with GW, you aren't paying for the extra options, since their most expensive kits are

In fact, the most expensive per-plastic kits are monopose characters, not the variable kits you can do loads of different things with.


Now, we all expect some price decrease for buying in bulk- but should Ten Marines with option cost the same as one or two marines without options?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I understand why they do it, but it sucks having to pay more for a kit because it "makes three kits" when it actually doesn't, and you end up not using most of the parts.

And that concept only falls apart when you consider they make limited option kits (Tartaros, Cataphractii & Blight Lord Terminators) that only build one kit, the latter in quite a mono-pose way, and they cost more than, say, the Deathwing kit that makes (1 of) 3 different units.

Yes. Now, in a business sense, the extra options actually make things cheaper for GW.

The big expense in plastic kits is the mold, not the plastic. They have to make up for the large up front costs with volume of sales. So, if they can get a customer to buy a kit two or three times to make three different models, that helps them make up for the expense.

It helps them that so many of their customers see the added options as added value.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So you're ok with a 100% price increase?

Well good for you I suppose. However a lot of people don't like paying more for less.

I imagine it comes down to being happy to have something available or not.

Like anything in this topic it’s a subjective value judgement.

I tried getting into Warhammer in the 90s with the starter box. I had the High Elves and the goblins. I couldn't find anyone else to buy in so I sold it a few years later when I was in to other things. $60 was on par with a new SNES game at the time.

Years later a group of my friends and I decided to do 40K. I once again bought a $60 starter box. It came with Blood Angel Marines and Orks. I had a part time job at a fast food chain to fund my hobbies and illicit teenage activities. Trouble is, none of my deadbeat friends could hold down a job, so none of them ever bought armies. I still have the starter kit. Some of the minis were lost when I left home and my parents promptly converted my room.

Fast forward to me being a Sergeant in the Marines, and a few of us decide to buy some 40K. I get some Chaos Marines and paint them up. The other guys buy their respective boxes of minis. Then I decide not to re-enlist and move back across the country.

Seven years later I get done with law school and finally have disposable income again. I buy a box of paints with 5 marines and enjoy myself. I decide I enjoy the painting aspect more than anything, and virtually give up on ever actually playing. I eventually get Space Hulk, and enjoy it with the wife. I purchase a variety of GW minis, some over the internet at a discount, and commence to painting. Age of Sigmar comes out, people lose their minds, and I get some still in the shrink wrap boxes of minis for cheap. I buy a few more products for things to paint, like the Isle of Blood and Dark Crusade. I buy Silver Tower from a seller on Amazon at a steep discount.

I guess I'm kind of amazed that anyone new is willing to dive into this hobby at all. The only reason I paint GW is because I was able to get them far cheaper than normal or in the starter boxes which are a good value, at least compared to their other offerings. The only games I buy to play are the specialist self contained games since they have a lower barrier to entry. If other minis had been marketed to me earlier when I decided to primarily just enjoy painting I would have went with them. GW was something I've known since childhood, so that's what I got. If I was a kid again I'd probably gravitate to something cheaper to get into, like X-Wing or Infinity. I'm wondering how long the old playerbase will still be around to shell out the big bucks for the next rule change.

Guys like me aren't keeping GW afloat. I know some parents spend anything on their kids, but I can't see most being willing to shell out over $100 to start their kid into what looks like an expensive board game hobby. Eventually the chickens will come home to roost, and GW will have to compete with the lower cost of entry alternatives, or in the case of those that prefer painting, superior sculpts at cheaper prices. It seems that the sunk cost has managed to keep some people in the GW fold, or at least come back after a course correction. I can't imagine being a teen or young adult trying to get my peers into this hobby.

 notprop wrote:
I imagine it comes down to being happy to have something available or not.

Like anything in this topic it’s a subjective value judgement.

When GW halved the Cadian or Dire Avenger boxes but kept the prices (relatively) the same for half the miniatures, I doubt the alternative was losing Cadian/Avenger models.

To some extent I'm slightly convinced that GW is pushing the cost of writing rules onto us by having the models be much more expensive than they should be. I can buy a Gundam Kit for about 10 bucks that has as much plastic and detail as a 40 dollar box of minis from GW.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So you're ok with a 100% price increase?

Well good for you I suppose. However a lot of people don't like paying more for less.

Its a matter of proportion, yes it is a 100% price increase but it is significantly different talking about going from $1-$2 per model (which is still reasonable) for a lotr box you may only need or want 1 of to comparing my overlords arkanaughts going to something like $45-$90 for 10 models, I am still spending the same for my LOTR and getting half the models, but I am still getting them much cheaper than I could get equivalents from elsewhere

Grr, need to correct my above post - I wrote 'style cult' when what I meant was 'style tribe' - not exactly the same thing or connotation.

The Auld Grump

Nah, I'd say "style cult" really is a good description for some.

Yeah, it does aptly describe many GW diehards.