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 Gimgamgoo wrote:
I find it hard to believe some people are still like that with a game mainly aimed at young teens.

It's hardly aimed at young teens. At least, if it is, it's doing a very poor job of marketing to them. High prices, massive time sinks, emphasis on in-store gaming that requires a car to get to, etc. IMO GW is happy to milk the cash cow of kids whining to their parents until they get a starter box of space marines, but that's hardly playing the game. IMO the target market for GW's games is older players with disposable income, the skill and patience to make good use of the models, and the ability to go play a game whenever they want. And this is supported by the fact that every time I'm in a game store and see people playing it's all college students and older, with maybe an occasional token younger player at most.

I know there's a lot of us older folk that still like our toy soldiers, but when that young generation are priced out, and the whales move on... what then?

Then the current younger generation will have real jobs and no longer be priced out.

Have you read a newspaper lately?

Priced out is the motto of a generation.

GW’s core demographic is 12 - 18 yr old boys. GW purchaser is often the customer themselves, funded by a Saturday/holiday job, or pocket money. To support their purchasing requirements GW requires the acceptance of multiple payment methods

https://trade.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/GW08V5-European-Trade-Terms-2.pdf

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Have you read a newspaper lately?

Priced out is the motto of a generation.

Priced out of major things like owning a house in a vastly over-inflated housing market. Not priced out of minor entertainment expenses, where the only reason they are priced out currently is that we're talking about young kids with no income besides an occasional birthday/christmas gift. It doesn't take a lot of income for time to be the limiting factor on miniatures instead of money.

Azrael, refrain from the personal attacks please.

 Azreal13 wrote:

GW’s core demographic is 12 - 18 yr old boys. GW purchaser is often the customer themselves, funded by a Saturday/holiday job, or pocket money. To support their purchasing requirements GW requires the acceptance of multiple payment methods

https://trade.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/GW08V5-European-Trade-Terms-2.pdf

Since when did we start believing GW's claims when they conflict with reality? GW may claim to target that demographic, but they sure don't market to them very effectively. And that demographic sure doesn't make up any significant part of the in-store gaming community at any store I've ever been to.

Or mine really. I'd say their core demographic is practically 17-30. A lot of people my age (23-ish ) stil live with their parents/ co-housing in order to have money for hobbies/video games etc.

Also telling GW to lower their prices right now is hard. They're making massively increased profit while running at near capacity. I don't remember the exact number but if you decrease a price by say 5% you need to increase sales by 20% (actual numbers vary from company to company and are dependent on a lot of stuff).

I can't picture myself (or anyone really) walk into GW's board and deliver that pitch and sound reasonable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:


Note age is not mentioned.

Ive not read the whole thread, but i say buy what you like and can afford.

What i dont like is when companys use leverage to influence what you buy.

I have invested lots of time into this hobby.
I would hate to think that gameworkshop would force me to buy models in order for my army to work.
Thankfully they seem to be providing me with plenty of ways to play and rules support.

Shouldnt the question be more along the lines of is gamesworkshop an ethical company,

Because as the above post said there looking like a very healthy company so prices must be about right

 Peregrine wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

GW’s core demographic is 12 - 18 yr old boys. GW purchaser is often the customer themselves, funded by a Saturday/holiday job, or pocket money. To support their purchasing requirements GW requires the acceptance of multiple payment methods

https://trade.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/GW08V5-European-Trade-Terms-2.pdf

Since when did we start believing GW's claims when they conflict with reality? GW may claim to target that demographic, but they sure don't market to them very effectively. And that demographic sure doesn't make up any significant part of the in-store gaming community at any store I've ever been to.

"Their official line doesn't support my argument do Dakka as a whole has always ignored it"?

 -Loki- wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

GW’s core demographic is 12 - 18 yr old boys. GW purchaser is often the customer themselves, funded by a Saturday/holiday job, or pocket money. To support their purchasing requirements GW requires the acceptance of multiple payment methods

https://trade.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/GW08V5-European-Trade-Terms-2.pdf

Since when did we start believing GW's claims when they conflict with reality? GW may claim to target that demographic, but they sure don't market to them very effectively. And that demographic sure doesn't make up any significant part of the in-store gaming community at any store I've ever been to.

"Their official line doesn't support my argument do Dakka as a whole has always ignored it"?

More like "GW has a historty of corporate documents that range from 'this is probably putting a spin on it to appease the shareholders' to 'delusional ramblings of someone who shouldn't be anywhere near control of a business' therefore we should view their business claims with skepticism when they contradict what we see happening."

Could someone explain to me the implications of the trade PDF in that link?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, I think I found it. They have sections that talk about their core demographic being 12-18 year old boys but other sections talking about their core demographic being diverse and how that impacts open hours. I'm not sure which is the true statement or how big their core is as a proportion. In either a portion of dollars spent or a portion of customers.

When I see the supposed age group they are seemingly aiming at I question how true that is? Over the past few years they have released a lot of kits some of which are way over the £100 mark; I ask you this;how many 12-18 year olds have this kind of pocket money? More likely they are aiming at people who are working and it has been the case for some time now.The problem is that those in work are and have been for some time,balking at the prices(the post is a great example) .

What happens when the 8th Edition bubble bursts? Do they renege and bring out 9th edition,hoping that people will be too excited on the shiny new stuff to notice how much the price has gone up again? Exactly how many codexes do you think you need?

Maybe we should be worried that the likes of Australia and New Zealand are complaining about being price gouged, and as GW continue to raise prices I forsee many other countries finding that they are being asked to fork out massive amounts just to continue in the hobby. Will they wish to do so?

It won't be long before the law of diminishing returns will come into play. That will be an interesting time...

Slipstream wrote:
When I see the supposed age group they are seemingly aiming at I question how true that is? Over the past few years they have released a lot of kits some of which are way over the £100 mark; I ask you this;how many 12-18 year olds have this kind of pocket money? More likely they are aiming at people who are working and it has been the case for some time now.The problem is that those in work are and have been for some time,balking at the prices(the post is a great example) .

What happens when the 8th Edition bubble bursts? Do they renege and bring out 9th edition,hoping that people will be too excited on the shiny new stuff to notice how much the price has gone up again? Exactly how many codexes do you think you need?

Maybe we should be worried that the likes of Australia and New Zealand are complaining about being price gouged, and as GW continue to raise prices I forsee many other countries finding that they are being asked to fork out massive amounts just to continue in the hobby. Will they wish to do so?

It won't be long before the law of diminishing returns will come into play. That will be an interesting time...

Not really. If we're discounting forge world, only a handful of big character pieces push the £100 mark. And only Archaon I believe actually hits a straight £100 with the others bouncing around between 60-80. And i'll tell you something, as an uncle to early and mid-teens, they're pushing that kind of pocket money. The eldest (who is 15) is regularly getting £50 a week for general stuff and that's not including odd job money he does. So yeah, they have access to those sort of funds.

Wha...?!?

You've got a 15 year old kid with $70 A WEEK to blow?

Yikes!

Well, I guess GW really is on to something then...

Pssh, that would hardly buy the kid any cockpit time per week. Unless the money is in addition to flight time, which it almost certainly is.

Not my kid, nephew. And from what I've observed that's quite the standard these days. I play the chauffeur from time to time and all of these kids have smartphones, tablets of some kind etc. And these aren't even from rich families, these are from thoroughly middle class houses.

If the 'average' British kid has close to $300 a month to spend as they see fit, I can see why GW is targeting them...

 Alpharius wrote:
If the 'average' British kid has close to $300 a month to spend as they see fit, I can see why GW is targeting them...

That's like 10x my hobby budget!

And I don't even come close to hitting it lately

I don't know, I was a middle class kid in the 90s, got 75 German Mark a week when I was 16 and did not get the most pocket money in my clique. Today that would translate to 220 Euros a month*. I could see kids getting that now, but no one in my circle of friends has kids that old yet.

*I spent a lot of that on fuel, to be honest. We lived in a sparsely settled region where buses were no good and there were no train tracks, so everybody had a 80-125ccm motorbike to get anywhere, it was a pretty common gift for the 16th birthday when kids wanted to have fun and parents got fed up from playing taxi. The rest went into beer and miniatures

"no one" in Germany in the 90s got 300 Marks per month!
Like seriously, you were one of the 1%.

I was a kid in the 90s in Germany and I had like 50 Marks per month and that was quite a lot compared to my friends. And we lived in one of the wealthier towns in the country with ather wealthy parents.

Yay, One-percenter!
Seriously, though, it wasn't that much compared to other guys (and girls). Maybe it was because we lived in the country so the parents thought they'd need to keep us mobile (I had to ride 40km one way to school...and the bus was very expensive and didn't get us back home after 13:00, so moped it was) and happy while in the city everything is close and the student ticket costs basically nothing. Our parents were craftspeople and farmers, not a single Abitur to be seen. We were the first generation that got more than 9 years of education.

Pocket money is subjective tough. Depends on parents and how much they want kids to buy with it. A girl I know had more than anyone else but she was expected to buy a lot more (clothes and stuff) with it.

Slipstream wrote:
When I see the supposed age group they are seemingly aiming at I question how true that is? Over the past few years they have released a lot of kits some of which are way over the £100 mark; I ask you this;how many 12-18 year olds have this kind of pocket money? More likely they are aiming at people who are working and it has been the case for some time now.The problem is that those in work are and have been for some time,balking at the prices(the post is a great example) .

Bad arqument. Hobbies tend to be often outside pocket money range of kids anyway. My niece for sure couldn't afford her riding and dance hobbies with her pocket money. And how many teenagers can afford couple thousands a year for their hobby either? Yet I know plenty who do it.

With kids source of money isn't really kid but the parent. They aren't looking "oh kids don't have job. They can't afford it.". They look "kids have parents who work. We need to sell this as hobby parents are happy to fund"

Anyway for time being they really even CANNOT drop prices. If you cut down prices by say 10% you need to increase your sale volume by lot more than 10% and they are already maxed out capacity. They would automatically get less profit by reducing price. Not much more sales due to production issues, less money per kit. No company does that. Actually demand/supply says they are underpricing...

£50 a week pocket money as any sort of 'standard' in the UK is utter nonsense. The average varies quite a bit depending on which survey you believe, but £6-£10 per week is more realistic.

Also, 12-18 year old boys are definitely still GW's core demographic, at least in the UK. You have to remember that those kids are not playing most of their games in GW stores or the independent gaming clubs you might belong to, but in school clubs on lunchtimes and after school.

tneva82 wrote:

Slipstream wrote:
When I see the supposed age group they are seemingly aiming at I question how true that is? Over the past few years they have released a lot of kits some of which are way over the £100 mark; I ask you this;how many 12-18 year olds have this kind of pocket money? More likely they are aiming at people who are working and it has been the case for some time now.The problem is that those in work are and have been for some time,balking at the prices(the post is a great example) .

Bad arqument. Hobbies tend to be often outside pocket money range of kids anyway. My niece for sure couldn't afford her riding and dance hobbies with her pocket money. And how many teenagers can afford couple thousands a year for their hobby either? Yet I know plenty who do it.

With kids source of money isn't really kid but the parent. They aren't looking "oh kids don't have job. They can't afford it.". They look "kids have parents who work. We need to sell this as hobby parents are happy to fund"

Anyway for time being they really even CANNOT drop prices. If you cut down prices by say 10% you need to increase your sale volume by lot more than 10% and they are already maxed out capacity. They would automatically get less profit by reducing price. Not much more sales due to production issues, less money per kit. No company does that. Actually demand/supply says they are underpricing...

The problem with relying on parents for money is that sticker shock is probably more of an issue. A gamer/hobbyist can look at £20-30 for a single model and justify it by saying they only need 1 or 2 per army but a clueless parent might just see 1 little plastic mode and baulk at the price. I can certainly see that being true of the bigger kits like Land Raiders. Clearly GW are doing something right since their profits are going up but I'm struggling to see who's buying at full retail from a GW, You're right about the capacity issue, unfortunately. I'm guessing they don't expect it to continue since there didn't seem to be any mention of investing profits in expanding production capacity, which would be a wise move if they thought demand would either remain as it is or increase. Maybe they expect a drop-off once all the 8th edition Codices are out?

tneva82 wrote:Anyway for time being they really even CANNOT drop prices. If you cut down prices by say 10% you need to increase your sale volume by lot more than 10% and they are already maxed out capacity. They would automatically get less profit by reducing price. Not much more sales due to production issues, less money per kit. No company does that. Actually demand/supply says they are underpricing...

Oh, they could. They'd have to invest in growing the market through advertising and getting past that whole "boutique" mentality, but it's entirely possible to expand into the general populace. If Heroscape could do it, GW could do it in a heartbeat. Increase volume of sales in conjunction with lowing the prices and you exponentially grow your customer base. But such things are otiose in a niche, which is why they need to push it out of niche and make it mainstream.

 Just Tony wrote:

tneva82 wrote:Anyway for time being they really even CANNOT drop prices. If you cut down prices by say 10% you need to increase your sale volume by lot more than 10% and they are already maxed out capacity. They would automatically get less profit by reducing price. Not much more sales due to production issues, less money per kit. No company does that. Actually demand/supply says they are underpricing...

Oh, they could. They'd have to invest in growing the market through advertising and getting past that whole "boutique" mentality, but it's entirely possible to expand into the general populace. If Heroscape could do it, GW could do it in a heartbeat. Increase volume of sales in conjunction with lowing the prices and you exponentially grow your customer base. But such things are otiose in a niche, which is why they need to push it out of niche and make it mainstream.

As it is they cannot produce enough stuff to meet up with demand. So they lower prices, in theory people rush in to buy...oh wait stores are empty. "Waiting for stock".

In case you haven't heard GW is suffering serious case of not being able to produce stuff to keep up stock AS IT IS NOW. Until that sorts out any decrease of price isn't going to lead to more sales in significant amount. You can't really sell what you haven't produced now can you?

Also kind of suggests that a price reduction just ain’t gonna happen, because despite the naysaying, all is rosey.

Seriously. If you’re operating at capacity and still can’t keep up with demand, does that suggest that your pricing is wrong?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also kind of suggests that a price reduction just ain’t gonna happen, because despite the naysaying, all is rosey.

Seriously. If you’re operating at capacity and still can’t keep up with demand, does that suggest that your pricing is wrong?

Rather depends on your definition of wrong I'd guess;

For a company with shareholders to keep happy then making the moneys is good

For a keen GW supporter it appears they don't think the prices are wrong as purchase in this case can be assumed as consent

For the not so keen, the sticker shock becomes a bit of a coin flip

For naysayers like me, I think a lot of GW is overpriced with some spectacularly strange variation, but as (paint aside) I don't buy it so makes no odds to me really bar the chance to grumble on Dakka
(although part of my reluctance is the rules not being my cup of tea as arguably Guildball and WMH prices are nearly on par with GW)

. Increase volume of sales in conjunction with lowing the prices and you exponentially grow your customer base.

That would only make sense if there was more stuff to sell, which currently isn't. There's a reason why they recently bought the place next to the factory.