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Rather than derail the Infinity news thread...

Presumably most of you have heard about the reductions to TAG effectiveness in N3, possibly at length. There are definitely some valid concerns:

HMGs are 3BS worse from 0-16" than in N2,
There's no longer a one Hacking attempt per Hacker per turn limit on Hacking TAGs,
Some of the Hacking programs are vicious,
Some close combat specialists can rip a TAG apart even more effectively in N2,
Increased availability to AP ammo in MULTI weapons makes their ARM value less useful,
Silhouettes make them hard to hide.


I'd like to talk about some of the buffs TAGs got through the N3 changes.

1. MULTI HMGs. Full Burst AP or Shock ammo in the active turn. Against HI and TAGs, AP ammo makes the MHMG even scarier - the tougher the target the more so. Against everyone else, Shock ammo makes sure that if you put a target down it's going to stay down - especially important against ALEPH with all their No Wound Incapacitation troopers or Haqqislam with their WIP17-18 Doctoring.

2a. Movement, obstacles. A trooper can freely move over any obstacle lower than it's Silhouette height or any friendly trooper with a lower Silhouette value. For standard TAGs with S7/67mm height this combines with their 6-4 movement to let them roam around the battlefield more freely than anything other than a trooper with Super Jump - for example almost all shipping containers are low enough that the TAG simply steps over them where an HI etc. would need to burn an extra Order or two to go round. Even the buildings in the Mototronica/Icestorm set are low enough that a TAG can cut the corner. Scatter terrain can generally be totally ignored on the move.

2b. Movement, Jump and Climb. As with the general movement rules, this applies to all troopers but TAGs (to my mind) gain more out of the changes than most troopers. While the Jump distance isn't much bigger because of needing to fully support the big base on landing, a TAG can generally tank an unopposed ARO shot or two when they jump up onto a roof or climb onto a building, while standard troops risk dying. Although this also applies to HI.

3. Hacking. While Hacking is easier overall, the effects are almost always less permanent or less dire than in N3, with immobilised troopers able to try and Reset whenever enemy troopers trigger AROs. Possession is a prime example as the TAG drops speed, BS and WIP from it's original profile and can be 'freely' unpossessed at the start of your turn with a Command Token.

Thank you very much for starting this thread and for sharing your N3 T.A.G. thoughts!

Indeed, I haven't got a lot to share but I intend to follow this one as TAGs seem to be a pretty unique/interesting part of Infinity.

MultiHMG huh...

Good points, interesting to read.
The inflation of shock ammo indeed concerns me as an Aleph player.

Here's my issue with these points:

That's talking about the "traditional" TAGs. It's not taking into account things like the Gecko, which are effectively heavy infantry with the TAG profile.

It's also not taking into account the sheer stupidity of the "Expel" hacking program.

As a Merovingia player primarily, TAGs are something I'm more concerned with killing than anything else (or at least covering with glorious immoblizing goo, all hail the Loup-Garou), though I'd always wanted an excuse to have one, being, you know, giant mecha.

So, with Moblots now being actually decent engineers (who'd have expected that eh?), I've been considering throwing in an Anaconda into my FRRM. Seems like a flexibible and durable TAG by the statline, though not quite as high on raw firepower as others; spitfires, panzerfausts and flamethrowers are nice, but nothing that screams "oh god, run for your life!" like a multi HMG can. Anyone have any experiences with this particular TAG, or how someone used to relying on brains, ballistic vests and stylish beards in the face of advanced technology might use one without flailing around and dying, especially with changes to this mystical "hacking" some people speak of in hushed tones.

See, on Dawn, when one says "to hack," we assume one refers to hacking someone to death with a cleaver or something similarly barbaric.

I have had a few games with TAGS in N3. About 4 With the Iguana with Nomads, 3 with the Jotum for Pano and 2 with the Marut for Aleph.

The Iguana was really horrible. Its armor just isnt there to deal with being hit. The ejection piolt is more of a gimmick and id rather he get more armor inplace. I have taken so many hits and failed saves because of AP rounds that the driver has ejected dead on more then one occasion...Not worth taking IMO

The Jotum is one hell of a tank, even with the AP as he sits happly at 8 armor if they are using AP. He is also very hard to hack and it has saved him many times having BTS 9. For his points I say he is worth taking, as he holds his own quite well and forces the enemys attention on him every time hes on the table. People fear him and its well placed.

The Marut has been doing very well also. Not quite as tanky as the Jotum, but she is able to take the beating and really helps kill anyone trying to hide or that thinks they are save with OOD/TO. In the reactive turn with Multi HMG is nice as you use Explosive rounds. People tend to shy away from doing anything in its Line of Sight!

I havent gotten to try my Gekos yet, but I want to just to see how they fair. The models are super cool but there has been a lot of talk that they are crap.

In case of a Marut, should you have access to White Noise you can blind her and force her to scoot away.

That is true. Our meta is literaly me and two others that play. (theres more but we never see them or know them)

Both the other guys dont really take hackers even though we play ITS missions. Nor do they take much that is hackable. (Weird) So I keep taking TAGS and HI usually do try and force them to hack or bring stuff to hack as it is super fun to do but I hardly get to use it much

Very interesting stuff, cheers for posting IJW!

Ive played 8 games of n3, the first 6 pre-profile so I used my raicho and i loved it. Last two game...SOGRAT LINK TEAM!!

Now that two sograts costs not much more than one raicho...i think i like my sogarat link better....

I wish he didnt lose the heavy grenade launcher...sigh...made me so sad...he was my camo killer.

ANYWAYS benefits! (i hope) IJW has shot down some of the shenanigians I thought I could pull....(learned silouttes do not block line of sight when they are moving in coordinated order)

Hopefully my new use works! (let me know)

Silhouette size lets you hide guys behind them. I've used my raicho often to set up cautious movement zones between buildings. I've won two armory missions by moving the raicho against the building and when he survives the aros, he is now a wall the specialists can cautious movement behind.

This tactic has a lot of applications!

Also a lot of building they can stand behind and get cover while having the firing angles of a sniper with their big guns with high BS.

Dodging isn't bad! - My raicho has a PH17 so -6 its still a respectable 11!

morat rule on a tag is amazing. I do not care about LOL and I do not care about retreat. He has single handedly won me supremacy and annihilation missions with third turn rampages.


Question - why is eject so bad? they eject him and then shoot him? cant he be placed anywhere in base with the tag (behind it out of los?) Ive been ejected once and i just jumped behind my tag. My dastardly opponent then tried to AD drop behind the tag to kill the pilot (sneaky!) but he failed his roll thankfully.

Regardless of whether or not you can "place anywhere in base with the TAG", it's poor design and the fact that they made it apply to all manned TAGs rather than specific TAGs shows how little thought was actually put into it.

I've got to admit, it seems like a power that wasn't really thought out well...

Yes, using TAGs and other models to block LoF for other troops to move behind is very handy - I did that last night with an HI so that Suppressive Fire from a Ninja was blocked and the squishy Specialist could safely walk past the 1/2" gap between buildings.

I think Expel is mostly for flavour and for the niche situations where it might be more useful - Possession is generally easier and more effective.

I haven't tried my geckos yet. So im a bit curious.

Like MajorStoffer, I'm interested in what people think of the Anaconda in Merovingia? I mostly have Vanilla Ariadna but the TAG does make the Merovingia sectorial appealing, if it's decent.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Like MajorStoffer, I'm interested in what people think of the Anaconda in Merovingia? I mostly have Vanilla Ariadna but the TAG does make the Merovingia sectorial appealing, if it's decent.

I was chatting with a mate who's all over TAGs like GW on bad business decisions, and comparing it to other TAGs in the same price range, it's got the edge in survivability, and the pilot being well armed means ejection system isn't just a gimmick, but to Merovingia specifically, its big plus is the durability. When the Moblot is "top-tier" with its 3ARM and 0BTS, 6 and 6 is certainly attractive.

This is all conjecture on my part, not having used it, but when I've got suck glorious things as Loup-Garou links, a big shooty TAG isn't as big a deal as a bullet soak, perhaps kept alive by a moblot engineer, and the panzerfaust could come in handy against difficult to reach targets, where running the Loups up to splooge it might be otherwise ill-advised.

It seems to synergize quite well, and has the added shock value of, "Wait, since when did Merovingia bring TAGs?"

I'm probably going to give it a go, as at least with FRRM, I've got enough bodies on the table at any given point that, in terms of tactical flexibility, I won't feel hamstrung by the TAG as can often happen in other armies. Even if it dies accomplishing nothing, that's at least a turn or two where my 5 Loups, 5 Briscards, Moblot and 112 can be doing something.

You sure you guys read the manned tag rules and ED: Escape System skill correctly?

Right now, for manned tags without an Escape System, if it loses its last structure point, it's still on the table as "unconscious." Then, during your active turn, you can dismount the pilot from the tag using the pilot's order (that's the only thing you can use the pilot's order on). It is not automatic, or obligatory.

The Escape Device: Escape System changes that by making the dismount obligatory after an order that reduces a TAG's structure to 0. But, it has the benefit of laying down a protective smoke screen right there.

Sadly, the Anaconda lost the Ejection System, replaced with the Escape System. But there's still a mention of the Ejection System in the book, so it'll appear again later.

Most tags are meant to be used with cover. +3 armor to a model with 5-10 armor is a huge increase in survivability, and that armor from cover is not reduced from AP ammo.

I just used the Anaconda tonight and it ended up working well. It can't march around the table shooting stuff, but for its cost it's still a menace that needs to be dealt with. I play against someone who uses the O-Yaroi all the time, and that thing is a nightmare, but also something you can deal with.

A TAG in the right place behind cover will eat up a lot of orders to dislodge.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Like MajorStoffer, I'm interested in what people think of the Anaconda in Merovingia? I mostly have Vanilla Ariadna but the TAG does make the Merovingia sectorial appealing, if it's decent.

It's cheap and has Spitfire, because of it it's one of the few TAG I'd be serious on running it. Merovingians have decent options to go along with it.

Thanks for the replies guys. It sounds better than I was expecting it to, I might have to get some more Merovingia models so I can put it on the table. I just thought, with str00dles saying about how bad he found the Iguana (a shame if it is, because I was planning on getting an Iguana for my Nomads, incredible model), I thought the Anaconda might be similar, both being cheaper, lower armoured TAGs.

My experience though with Iguana is that the other players dont use much hackable stuff, so thats why he isnt a good choice for me to take. He is a natural repeter, so thats pretty cool. It is a light TAG though and my playstyle is heavy tags

Hey, I just remembered I kind of love the Sphynx, has that gotten particularly worse or better with the recent changes? Since... can't you not hack CA TAGs or did that change (or am I just off entirely).. and I mean TO and a spitfire never hurt anybody (on my side!).

In N2, Humans can't possess CA T.A.G.s, but they can certainly hack/mess with them otherwise.

I don't think N3 has changed that?

Now CA TAGs are possesseable (well, the Avatar has the not possesseable trait, but Raizot and Shynx are possesseable).

Macayana is still better than her little brothers, was hoping for something to help vanilla Tiks shine.

Ha!

Nice to see that the Human Sphere has bridged that particular 'technology gulf'!

That always seemed a little odd... not a lot odd.. but a little.

Oh well, Surely it'll still be useful with TO and a spitfire, and it looks cool anyway!

Thanks for the write up! I love TAGs, and really want to play with them (I'm a Nomad player). I got an Iguana and a couple Gecko's already. I'm a bit disappointed to read that the Iguana did so poorly on the table, but it was one game, and I can't help but feel that one game isn't gonna define a model. I dunno- I haven't played a game with 'em yet.

If it gets too bad, maybe I'll switch to Pan-O and play with their TAGs.

Use TAGs within their new role CB intends for them (that of fire support) and you should be fine, even with Geckos. Just remember this is Infinity. There's no such thing as a tank. Even the mighty Jotum can and will fall to rifles with lucky crits or just bad armour saves when you have to roll enough of them.

I agree. A good way to think of them as mobile artillery pieces. They look super cool, and usually have the big guns, multi HMG or HMC (I wouldnt use any with a spirfire personally...) They are great at holding points on the board and will 100% draw fire/attention, and make your opponent think twice.

My playstyle (why I dislike the Iguana) is that if im sticking that many points and SWC into something I want to make sure it stays on the table for a little while so I aim for the 8 armor+ TAGS. Wy I have 2 Iguanas ill never know

I have had my Joutom shrug off panzerfaut hits like they were flies and get taken down by mass combi rifle shots. (Also going Rambo a few times for funises across the board doesent make him survive long)

Actually, they're still good to be used aggressively. Just not aggressively without forethought.

You can still out shoot most anti-tag weapons with higher BS, higher burst, and more powerful weapons.

Most tags have at least 2 wounds too, so you can risk taking 1 wound to get into a more advantageous position.

Just don't send them into the open against mobs of AROs.

To be honest, TAGs may cost a lot, but sitting that unit back as fire support is as wasteful as letting it die randomly in the open in a foolish charge.