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Bringing this over from the Necron tactics thread.
Can Praetorians begin emarked on a Nightscythe?
My argument is no, they are Jump Infantry and nothing in the dedicated transport section specifically states that taking a DT allows you to ignore transport restrictions.
I also argue that "may select as a dedicated transport" only allows the Praetorians to purchase the Nightscythe as a DT and does not fulfill the condition of specifically stating the Praetorians can ignore transport restrictions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/31 22:16:36
My win rate while having my arms and legs tied behind by back while blindfolded and stuffed in a safe that is submerged underwater:
100%
I also argue that "may select as a dedicated transport" only allows the Praetorians to purchase the Nightscythe as a DT and does fulfill the condition of specifically stating the Praetorians can ignore transport restrictions.
Do you mean "does not?" Otherwise you're contradicting yourself. I think RAI are fairly clear that they can be embarked in the NS, and that the exception was overlooked. Can anyone show me another unit that can a DT that they can't ride in? I mean they used to be able to get in before. Needs an faq to be 100% legit.
I also argue that "may select as a dedicated transport" only allows the Praetorians to purchase the Nightscythe as a DT and does fulfill the condition of specifically stating the Praetorians can ignore transport restrictions.
Do you mean "does not?" Otherwise you're contradicting yourself. I think RAI are fairly clear that they can be embarked in the NS, and that the exception was overlooked. Can anyone show me another unit that can a DT that they can't ride in? I mean they used to be able to get in before. Needs an faq to be 100% legit.
Yes I do mean does not, I'll fix that.
My win rate while having my arms and legs tied behind by back while blindfolded and stuffed in a safe that is submerged underwater:
100%
Depends on whether you consider "Can take as a dedicated transport" to meet the criteria of the vague phrase "unless stated otherwise", and that's really all it boils down to.
changemod wrote: Depends on whether you consider "Can take as a dedicated transport" to meet the criteria of the vague phrase "unless stated otherwise", and that's really all it boils down to.
'stated otherwise' is vague enough to cover the RAW permission.
I see no reason why we shouldn't allow the obvious that the Praetorians can indeed embark on the dedicated transport that they are expressly permitted to take.
RAW: I do not think the permission to take as DT is enough for 'unless stated otherwise'.
HIWPI: Sure they can.
How I Would Actually Play It: I wouldn't take them in a Flyer.
adamsouza wrote: I think it's pretty obvious that the RAI is that they can ride in their own dedicated transport.
So does that mean if I take a Wave Serpent (Capacity 12) for ten Wraithguard (Bulky) that I can embark them? After all it's pretty obvious that the RAI is they can ride in their own transport.
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changemod wrote: Depends on whether you consider "Can take as a dedicated transport" to meet the criteria of the vague phrase "unless stated otherwise", and that's really all it boils down to.
You do not have to embark on a selected dedicated transport, so how is "select as a dedicated transport" = "embarking on a dedicated transport"?
Also it's "specifically stated otherwise".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/31 22:29:09
My win rate while having my arms and legs tied behind by back while blindfolded and stuffed in a safe that is submerged underwater:
100%
adamsouza wrote: I think it's pretty obvious that the RAI is that they can ride in their own dedicated transport.
So does that mean if I take a Wave Serpent (Capacity 12) for ten Wraithguard (Bulky) that I can embark them? After all it's pretty obvious that the RAI is they can ride in their own transport.
Sure, but 6 wraithguard is your max capacity.
No one is saying that the Praetorians would not have to follow capacity restrictions.
changemod wrote: Depends on whether you consider "Can take as a dedicated transport" to meet the criteria of the vague phrase "unless stated otherwise", and that's really all it boils down to.
You do not have to embark on a selected dedicated transport, so how is "select as a dedicated transport" = "embarking on a dedicated transport"?
Also it's "specifically stated otherwise".
Sure I see "may select as a dedicated transport" fulfilling the requirement of "specifically stated otherwise."
What you are arguing actually goes against common sense to the point that there would need to be a line that says
"may select but may not embark upon"
I mean really this is a non-issue and intent is incredibly obvious and "stated otherwise" is vague enough to establish RAW.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/31 22:38:47
adamsouza wrote: I think it's pretty obvious that the RAI is that they can ride in their own dedicated transport.
So does that mean if I take a Wave Serpent (Capacity 12) for ten Wraithguard (Bulky) that I can embark them? After all it's pretty obvious that the RAI is they can ride in their own transport.
Sure, but 6 wraithguard is your max capacity.
No one is saying that the Praetorians would not have to follow capacity restrictions.
And one of those restrictions is no Jump Infantry.
For an example of a transport that states otherwise - Drop Pods. May carry 10(?) Infantry, or 1 Dreadnought, or 1 Thunderfire Cannon.
Notice it specifically says that certain non-Infantry can be embarked.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
My take on the matter from when it was brought up in the Necron thread in News & Rumours. As of right now Praetorians can't embark in their dedicated transport and I'm not going to try and guess if that was GW's intent or not.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
adamsouza wrote: I think it's pretty obvious that the RAI is that they can ride in their own dedicated transport.
So does that mean if I take a Wave Serpent (Capacity 12) for ten Wraithguard (Bulky) that I can embark them? After all it's pretty obvious that the RAI is they can ride in their own transport.
Sure, but 6 wraithguard is your max capacity.
No one is saying that the Praetorians would not have to follow capacity restrictions.
changemod wrote: Depends on whether you consider "Can take as a dedicated transport" to meet the criteria of the vague phrase "unless stated otherwise", and that's really all it boils down to.
You do not have to embark on a selected dedicated transport, so how is "select as a dedicated transport" = "embarking on a dedicated transport"?
Also it's "specifically stated otherwise".
Sure I see "may select as a dedicated transport" fulfilling the requirement of "specifically stated otherwise."
What you are arguing actually goes against common sense to the point that there would need to be a line that says
"may select but may not embark upon"
I mean really this is a non-issue and intent is incredibly obvious and "stated otherwise" is vague enough to establish RAW.
Oh believe me I'm not arguing RAI here, I'm bringing this up so that TOs and such can add the line "Praetorians may being embarked on selected Nightscythes" to their FAQs until the official FAQ comes out.
Also in the vague hope that GW is reading this (I know) and changes the Nightscythe Transport Capacity to allow Jump and Jet Infantry.
However common sense has no place in RAW.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/31 22:50:08
My win rate while having my arms and legs tied behind by back while blindfolded and stuffed in a safe that is submerged underwater:
100%
My take on the matter from when it was brought up in the Necron thread in News & Rumours. As of right now Praetorians can't embark in their dedicated transport and I'm not going to try and guess if that was GW's intent or not.
Oh really? As of right now Praetorian's can embark on their dedicated transport. That they may select a night scythe as a dedicated transport fulfills the "stated otherwise" requirement.
My take on the matter from when it was brought up in the Necron thread in News & Rumours. As of right now Praetorians can't embark in their dedicated transport and I'm not going to try and guess if that was GW's intent or not.
Oh really? As of right now Praetorian's can embark on their dedicated transport. That they may select a night scythe as a dedicated transport fulfills the "stated otherwise" requirement.
You can select a Dedicated Transport without deploying in it. Nothing in being able to select a DT grants explicit permission to embark on that DT.
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adamsouza wrote: I think it's pretty obvious that the RAI is that they can ride in their own dedicated transport.
So does that mean if I take a Wave Serpent (Capacity 12) for ten Wraithguard (Bulky) that I can embark them? After all it's pretty obvious that the RAI is they can ride in their own transport.
Sure, but 6 wraithguard is your max capacity.
No one is saying that the Praetorians would not have to follow capacity restrictions.
And one of those restrictions is no Jump Infantry.
For an example of a transport that states otherwise - Drop Pods. May carry 10(?) Infantry, or 1 Dreadnought, or 1 Thunderfire Cannon.
Notice it specifically says that certain non-Infantry can be embarked.
Jump infantry cannot "unless specifically stated otherwise" which in the case of the Praetorians it has indeed been "stated otherwise"
My take on the matter from when it was brought up in the Necron thread in News & Rumours. As of right now Praetorians can't embark in their dedicated transport and I'm not going to try and guess if that was GW's intent or not.
Oh really? As of right now Praetorian's can embark on their dedicated transport. That they may select a night scythe as a dedicated transport fulfills the "stated otherwise" requirement.
You can select a Dedicated Transport without deploying in it. Nothing in being able to select a DT grants explicit permission to embark on that DT.
I am saying that "selecting a dedicated transport" fulfills the vague "stated otherwise" which it does because its vague.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also the definition of Dedicated Transport further enforces that the unit that buys the dedicated transport embarks on it (permission granted by buying it)
Spoiler:
Dedicated Transports
Sometimes a unit entry will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart, but count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for all other rules purposes.
For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (troops) counts as a unit of troops, but one bought for a unit of Space Marine Sternguard Veteran Squad (elites) counts as elites.
Other vehicles may also have a Transport Capacity, but they are chosen separately as normal, have a role and occupy a force organisation chart slot of their own.
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle’s entry.
Notice in the definition that select = carry.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/31 23:00:05
"Stated otherwise" would have to be something STATING that they can embark overruling the restriction.
Permission to buy a DT never STATES anything about overcoming the restriction or even the fact that they may embark upon it....
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No, being able to buy a Night Scythe as a Dedicated Transport does not meet the definition of stated.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Ghaz wrote: No, being able to buy a Night Scythe as a Dedicated Transport does not meet the definition of stated.
By Dedicated Transport definition being able to select means being able to carry. In fact it means "can only carry [when initially deployed]"
can =/= must.
Ambiguity exists. Ambiguity is not specific, in fact it's pretty much the opposite.
Can grants permission. It is up to you to show where that permission is taken away.
It's taken away by the rule saying "Only Infantry models can embark... unless specifically stated otherwise".
You have got that backwards, the ability to embark is granted when the Praetorians are permitted to select a NS as a dedicated transport. See the definition of dedicated transport.
Ghaz wrote: No, being able to buy a Night Scythe as a Dedicated Transport does not meet the definition of stated.
By Dedicated Transport definition being able to select means being able to carry. In fact it means "can only carry [when initially deployed]"
can =/= must.
Ambiguity exists. Ambiguity is not specific, in fact it's pretty much the opposite.
Can grants permission. It is up to you to show where that permission is taken away.
It's taken away by the rule saying "Only Infantry models can embark... unless specifically stated otherwise".
You have got that backwards, the ability to embark is granted when the Praetorians are permitted to select a NS as a dedicated transport. See the definition of dedicated transport.
Okay, you've convinced me. But do you understand why I wanted to bring this up (look how far you had to dig).
My win rate while having my arms and legs tied behind by back while blindfolded and stuffed in a safe that is submerged underwater:
100%
If what you were saying held up, you would be able to put 20 warriors in a ghost ark at deployment. Clearly that is absurd, and overriden by the exception that you cannot fit more models in a transport than the capacity allows. This is similar, but is instead restricted by not being able to fit in jump infantry. You cannot ignore that restriction for the same reason as you cannot ignore transport capacity - it's against the rules. It's most likely a rules mess up, but that's how it is.
Has anyone brought up the fact that the Night Scythe's cannot be embarked upon in the first place, and that it moves the unit from Reserves to the table.
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