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Are these things entirely too cheesy to field in 1000pt games. Would you refuse to play against a list that included them?

40k itself is too cheesy at 1000pts or lower

Forewarned? Not too much of a problem.

Ambushed? Yeah, palpable whiff of Stilton.

If I want to use a knight in a 1000 point game I will always tell the opposition ahead of time and discuss it.

One Knight at a 1000pys is no big deal, and something you should be expecting, anyway. Two Knights at 1000pts will probably be a one-sided game, with the Knights losing mod of the time. No sure why people are so afraid of Knights.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
One Knight at a 1000pys is no big deal, and something you should be expecting, anyway. Two Knights at 1000pts will probably be a one-sided game, with the Knights losing mod of the time. No sure why people are so afraid of Knights.

SJ

Because for many armies its quite hard to take a well-rounded list at 1000 points that has enough damage to deal with 2 knights before the 2 knights deal with what ever can kill them...if you know you are facing them its a different story, but going in blind most people would try for some sort of balance...

Why would you not prepared for it? If you can't deal with a Knight, you can't deal with a Leman Russ, or a Preditor, or any other common high-AV tank. Going in expecting only Rhinos is you planning to fail.

SJ

I run 12 laser cannon at 1000pts and they still can't hurt a knight as everthing just bounce off then . in a 2000pt game i have shoot over 20laser cannon shots and 10missile in one turn just to hurt one and he still had 4 more thet was no way to win

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Why would you not prepared for it? If you can't deal with a Knight, you can't deal with a Leman Russ, or a Preditor, or any other common high-AV tank. Going in expecting only Rhinos is you planning to fail.

SJ

First off, I agree that one knight should be perfectly manageable for most armies.
However, I don't know what experiences you've had, but I've found that 2 knights at 1000 points will win most games quite easily.
There are a few things out there that can cause them problems, but for most 1000 point armies 2 knights have the potential damage and durability to effectively table them.

I play this list sometimes (obviously with some forewarning given to my opponent). :

Inquisitor - 2x servo skulls
Henchmen - 2x acolyte w/ meltaguns, 1x psyker, + Rhino
Henchmen - 2x acolyte w/ meltaguns, 1x psyker, + Rhino
Henchmen - 2x acolyte w/ meltaguns, 1x psyker, + Rhino

Knight paladin
Knight paladin

I honestly find this to be one of the most cheesy lists at 1000 points, and have not come close to losing with it.

I also disagree with your statement that an army that can deal with tanks can also deal with knights.
A SH walker, especially one with a 4++ save, is a totally different kind of challenge for some armies.
Daemon and tyrannid players for example have no trouble dealing with heavy tanks, but IK are often very difficult models for them to remove, especially at 1000 points.

I would ask the people you regularly play. For some people a single leman russ is too cheesy at 1000 pts and for others there is no such thing.

I would not complain about 2 imperial knights at 1000 pts. However the game would become silly pretty fast as either I would win nearly hands down because my list matched well or I would not be able to hurt you and would play to the mission very nearly ignoring you. So you are doing yourself a favor if you bring a list that can interact with most opponent's lists (ie 1 imperial knight) rather than a very tilted list which may not interact at all (2 imperial knights).

One Knight = two Leman Russes. The question is, can you deal with four Leman Russes at 1000 points? If so, you can deal with two Knights. If not, then you might want to rethink your plan. Just say'n.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
One Knight = two Leman Russes. The question is, can you deal with four Leman Russes at 1000 points? If so, you can deal with two Knights. If not, then you might want to rethink your plan. Just say'n.

SJ

As Big Blind Bill mentioned, this is not true. Yes 4 Leman Russes have more firepower than 2 Knights. Yes they are AV 14 on the front, as opposed to AV13. What they don't do is move 12" a turn, shoot two units a turn, assault nearly anything without fear of retaliation, nor do they have attacks that bring to bear the 3 most loathed words in 40K: "Removed from play".

I'm not arguing the cheese-level by any means (I play some pretty cheesy lists), I just don't think comparing two Knights to four Russes is a fair comparison. Daemons and Tyranids are the two armies I own with which I can field any sort of competitive build. Both of those get the shaft pretty hard from Knights, at least in the sense that I don't really have any good ways of taking them out. Both have ways of "dealing" with them, but almost no hope of removing one, much less two. Against Russes, I can be in his face turn one with buffed Hounds ready to assault turn 2 and start hitting rear armor and popping tanks. No-go against Knights. With Flyrants I can pretty much ignore anything except a Paskisher, and deal with them when I'm ready. Flyrants can also largely ignore Knights, but as super heavy walkers, they're much tougher to take down, and exert enough board control that I can't simply ignore them. It's just not the same thing.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
One Knight = two Leman Russes. The question is, can you deal with four Leman Russes at 1000 points? If so, you can deal with two Knights. If not, then you might want to rethink your plan. Just say'n.

SJ

I can deal with 4 Leman russes, because anything can kill them in melee and from the rear.
However, Knights just HAVE to be shot to bits, or multi-charged. Otherwise, they'll kill anything I can field before it can kill them (except for DPs with Iron Arm )
This gets even worse in casual games, where 4 Russes would be quite a threat, and where 2 knights would roll over any really fluffy lists (except the Nurgle ones that only go for objectives).

It can be fun, but it's generally just boring...
That's why 2 Knights > 4 Russes.

Knights are skew, that's it. The game is either hilariously one-sided in the Knights' favour if the other guy has a list that can fight them or hilariously one-sided against them if the other guy doesn't.

Here's the thing: play the mission, win the game.

You don't have to kill a Knight a turn to deal with Knights. You do have to be able to play to the mission while midiigating the Knight player's ability to do the same. With two Knights at 1000pts, your opponent just tied up 3/4 of their points in two units, two units that don't Objective Secured, that fight at Initiative 1 if it charges through terrain, two you can shot more than one side of, two units that are useless when tarpitted on your terms.

Think outside the box rather than stay blind with your head stuck in the box.

SJ

Here's the thing: play the mission, win the game.

Everyone should be doing this anyway, and it is great advice in theory.

The problem is however that many armies would struggle to play the objectives at 1000 points, when there are 2 knights attacking them for 6 turns. Some could do it, eldar jetbikes and serpents would have no problem out maneuvering and avoiding the knights. However, if the knights came up against an army of non-fast skimmer vehicles, or infantry, then their 12 move speed and ability to shoot and charge different units, makes escaping them or mitigating their damage quite difficult.

two units that don't Objective Secured,

This is only relevant if you get on the objective first though. If a knight gets on it first then it can use its massive base size to make sure you stay 3 away (again jetbikes and skimmers are better at this as they can jump over the knight).

From my experience with knights in low pt games - you don't deal with them. You play around them. Basically, you either can (melta sob, be'lakor, a bunch of pk nobz + warboss, tank bustas, melta/s10 guyz in serpents) or can't (everyone else) kill them. Some armies do have such units in their low pt tac lists, but most of them don't.

Knights are quite hard to tarpit due to stomps. Not that it's impossible - it's just unreliable cause you can't be sure if he kills 2-3 guyz or 10-15. So, your best bet would be playing for misson, kiling other stuff and hoping he's not lucky with maelstorm.

Comparing knight with 2 leman russes is funny. Makes me think you're playing knights yourself and purposefully lowering their capabilities not to appear a tfg to yourself for bringing them without warning or something

My comparing them to LRBTs is a point by point, weapon by weapon equivalency. Yes, Knights are Walkers that move 12" and can assault, but LRBTs are AV14 on the front, have more weapon options, and are functionally MSU to a single Knight, which equals out survivability. Literally, if you cannot deal with 4 LRBTs at 1000pts (a not uncommon amount at that point level), you cannot deal with any vehicle heavy army. But if you can deal with 4 LRBTs at 1000pts, you can deal 2 IKs, which means bitching about the IKs is effectively telling the entire forum, "I can't deal with tanks! Please don't field tanks against me!"

All I'm saying is put on your big boy pants and start planning on winning versus heavy mech armies. Take units that can either deal with tanks directly via shooting or melee, or that can ignore tanks via maneuverability and survival strategies. Tarpitting a Knight with 20 Guants, or 30 Boyz or 50 Conscripts is effectly the same as killing the Knight, because it is out of play for 2-3 turns (or the rest of the game). Taking a Flyers with anti-tank weapons is a hard counter, just like Haywire units, or Drop Pod Melta. Sister Dominions with Meltaguns in Scouting/Infiltrating Rhinos/Melta Immolators will literally melt a Knight in one turn! Hidden Powerfists/Power-Klaws/Thunder-Hammers simply wreck Knights when it's D-str CC weapon can only kill 0-4 models from a 30-model blob, and its Stomps might hit 2-3 models per Blast.

What I see here on this thread is a lot of paralysis through analysis, not actively engaging your creative thinking. Your codex is a toolbox of tools to deal with problems, and if your codex does not have the right tool, another codex will.

Btw, I play all-infantry pure Grey Knights most of the time, and I do not fear Tanks, Flyers, or big Stompy walkers. I plan for them, and play to my plan.

SJ

Oh, good old l2p arguement
Noone's arguing that they're unbeatable or something. Just acting like it's as easy as 2 lrbt is a stretch.

He must be trolling.

But if you can deal with 4 LRBTs at 1000pts, you can deal 2 IKs, which means bitching about the IKs is effectively telling the entire forum, "I can't deal with tanks! Please don't field tanks against me!"

What utter rubbish.

As said previously, 2 LBT =/= an Imperial knight.

A better comparison would be 2 soul grinders with phlegm cannons. This way you are actually comparing them to another AV13 walker with decent cc capability and a blast weapon.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
He must be trolling.

But if you can deal with 4 LRBTs at 1000pts, you can deal 2 IKs, which means bitching about the IKs is effectively telling the entire forum, "I can't deal with tanks! Please don't field tanks against me!"

What utter rubbish.

As said previously, 2 LBT =/= an Imperial knight.

A better comparison would be 2 soul grinders with phlegm cannons. This way you are actually comparing them to another AV13 walker with decent cc capability and a blast weapon.

Doesn't negate my point, at all.

SJ

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
He must be trolling.

But if you can deal with 4 LRBTs at 1000pts, you can deal 2 IKs, which means bitching about the IKs is effectively telling the entire forum, "I can't deal with tanks! Please don't field tanks against me!"

What utter rubbish.

As said previously, 2 LBT =/= an Imperial knight.

A better comparison would be 2 soul grinders with phlegm cannons. This way you are actually comparing them to another AV13 walker with decent cc capability and a blast weapon.

Soul grinders can't stomp => can be easilly tarpitted and you don't need to hope for them NOT to roll 6-s.

On the contrary;

A lot of armies could beat four leman russ that would get destroyed by two knights, because whilst (for example) hug cover, take objective and win on the mission works for tanks (much like it works against flyer-heavy armies if you haven't enough flak), it doesn't against assault-capable walkers.

A marine assault squad can tear a tank squadron to pieces in one turn of assault - barring serious special weapons it can't even hurt a knight. One or two melta shots has a good chance of removing a tank - but thanks to the ion shield and the ability to ignore shaken, stunned and weapon destroyed, it won't reliably stop a knight - who, unlike a tank (whose only recourse is to run) can then turn and assault said unit. Remember that the suggested dominion squad piling in with 5 meltaguns (4 + a combimelta) will only manage an average of two-and-a-bit hull points off - less if the knight is a senseshal. Yes, it's half dead. But it's also tactically unimpared and perfectly able to wipe out a unit worth half its points that you've had to move within 6" of it to do so.

Even "tarpit them" is a very situational statement. Having been on the receiving end, I can say that even big hordes of fearless units like termagants vanish very quickly once stomp attacks come into play. 20 gaunts won't last long at all! Saying a stomp only hits 2-3 models is vastly misrepresentative because the stomps come in after every model has made its pile-in move - so you're packed base-to-base against the knight.

Equally, it's not gunfire which is threatening - it's the fact you're taking two battle tanks worth of ordnance at one target whilst the knight charges and kills a second target. Unlike 'proper' titans, knights are very much an assault threat - their battlecannons are ood but secondary to the reaper chainsword and the stomp attacks.

That said, there are some ways round it. As discussed, flyers are a key threat provided you have a flyer which is actually shooty enough to be a threat. From a tyranid perspective winged tyrants are good - if you can flank a knight a winged tyrant can easily take a couple of hull points off a turn.

Lots of small units are another. I would far rather try to tarpit a knight with a 10-15 strong unit of gaunts with another such unit behind it and another behind that. Tervigons are good at this sort of layered tarpit approach.


I certainly wouldn't refuse to play against knights, at any size game, but I would be expecting a tough match - I'm not confident of my termagant screen holding long enough to get the points I need from objectives, and - whilst a crushing claws/electroshock grubs tervigon can hurt a knight, it's not likely to live long enough to do so; especially if it get smacked around with cannon shells first.

 elcoop wrote:
Are these things entirely too cheesy to field in 1000pt games. Would you refuse to play against a list that included them?

If it's a friendly game, please don't. Otherwise, sure.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
My comparing them to LRBTs is a point by point, weapon by weapon equivalency. Yes, Knights are Walkers that move 12" and can assault, but LRBTs are AV14 on the front, have more weapon options, and are functionally MSU to a single Knight, which equals out survivability.

Point by point weapon equivalancy, what is the Leman russ equivalent of the reaper chainsword or RA 12 of a IK? What about the fact that you hit them on FA13 in CC (probably on 4's) as opposed to RA 10 (on 3's)? What about the fact that you will always get a 4++ vs shooting on a knight vs a Russ that can either have its cover be ignored or simply not be in cover in the first place? The tactical maneuverability of moving 12" and ignoring terrain for the most part? They are not the same and you are fooling yourself if you think they are.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Literally, if you cannot deal with 4 LRBTs at 1000pts (a not uncommon amount at that point level), you cannot deal with any vehicle heavy army. But if you can deal with 4 LRBTs at 1000pts, you can deal 2 IKs, which means bitching about the IKs is effectively telling the entire forum, "I can't deal with tanks! Please don't field tanks against me!"

Dealing with other mech armies is very, very different as not many can field that volume of FA 14 in low points games. Personally I would have thought that saying to the forum "I can't deal with Imperial Knights, please help" would be a sign that you could share your experience defeathing said Knights rather than giving condecending replies that boil down to l2p lol. Even if he did say "I can't deal with tanks", then help is the answer, not ranting about how easy it is.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
All I'm saying is put on your big boy pants and start planning on winning versus heavy mech armies. Take units that can either deal with tanks directly via shooting or melee, or that can ignore tanks via maneuverability and survival strategies.

As before, heavy mech is different from Knights. How are you going to outmanuever them when moving 12" is part of their shtick? Not everyone plays Eldar. The list of units that can deal with a Knight, let alone 2 in 1k, is a very, very short one. If you had've said something along the lines of "Put objectives in ruins and multi level buildings so the Knight can't assault them and then place units that can get 2+ cover saves on them such as Stealth Suits, Camo Scouts, Nurgle Daemons etc" then your post might have had some benefit. Knights (especially 2 in 1k) aren't going to reliably have ways to deal with units they can't assault that can gtg in cover.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Tarpitting a Knight with 20 Guants, or 30 Boyz or 50 Conscripts is effectly the same as killing the Knight, because it is out of play for 2-3 turns (or the rest of the game).

If you think Knights can't deal with multitides of armour 4 or less units in assault, then you're in for a rude shock if you ever play those armies! Stomps are Str 6 AP4, so units of marines actuall strike the best compromise between numbers and durability. Given that you're going to be catching 10+ models under the template each time and removing 5/6ths of them every turn, traditional tarpit units aren't worth much against knights. Considering that you can simply remove the priest from a conscript blob on a 6, once that happens, you'll run down the rest of the blob at the end of that phase.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Taking a Flyers with anti-tank weapons is a hard counter, just like Haywire units, or

Yep, first sensible thing you've said, but the knight player can also play smart and minimise their impact unless you take quite a few, which is, again, hard to do in 1k. Haywire does indeed wreck IK's faces though.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Drop Pod Melta. Sister Dominions with Meltaguns in Scouting/Infiltrating Rhinos/Melta Immolators will literally melt a Knight in one turn!

The Sternguard have a reasonable chance if they manage to come down and combat squad into both side and rear in melta range, netting 0.55 Glances and 5.55 pens (plus another 3.7 HP from Explodes! results), but those get knocked down to ~.41 glances, ~4.1 pens and another 2.7 from Explodes! after 4++ against 1 facing for a total of ~7.4. If he deploys so you can only get front armour (as a smart player would if he knew he was facing Drop Sternguard), then you're looking at ~4.4 HP after saves.

Sisters are in much the same boat but worse, as Infiltrate & Scout is going to leave you against front armour netting the same 4.4 HP after saves (assuming he doesn't get 1st turn and either wreck your day with shooting or simply move out of range) and risk being stuck in reserves and/or coming onto the wrong side of the board if outflanking.

In either case, it doesn't take much of a change in luck to go from Dead knight (who probably also took out whatever killed him with his deathsplosion) to very angry knight shooting ID pieplates with no saves in easy charge range of whatever just tried to smoke him. This also assumes that there is no area terrain for the knight to deploy in to get a 5+ against suicide sternguard (resulting on about 5.1 HP for the sternguard attacking from side/rear silultaneously) or any LoS blocking terrain to guard his back with forcing all the sternguard to come at him from 1 side.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Hidden Powerfists/Power-Klaws/Thunder-Hammers simply wreck Knights when it's D-str CC weapon can only kill 0-4 models from a 30-model blob,

Yep, 2nd thing you've got right, but only if you exchange Powerfist/Thunderhammer for Chainfist/Killsaw. Hitting on 4's and glancing on 5's with not many attacks isn't a recipe for success. If you've got more than a model or 2 with these, then you're running a very expensive VV or DC squad that isn't terribly good against many other armies. Again, difficult to fit many of these in with a TAC list at 1k and it's not really hidden very well and will almost certainly get shot down trying to make it across the board or when it stands around after deep striking or podding in.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
and its Stomps might hit 2-3 models per Blast.

You've never faced knights with a non-elite squad have you? Given that you must bunch up into b2b where possible, you should be hitting 6+ models each stomp, of which you get d3.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
What I see here on this thread is a lot of paralysis through analysis, not actively engaging your creative thinking. Your codex is a toolbox of tools to deal with problems, and if your codex does not have the right tool, another codex will.

Do you even know what codex s/he plays? Not all armies have good answers to knights, and even then, sometimes it's rather specific units that s/he might not have available.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Btw, I play all-infantry pure Grey Knights most of the time, and I do not fear Tanks, Flyers, or big Stompy walkers. I plan for them, and play to my plan.

SJ

Good for you, not everyone else has the same options available to them. If you had said "I run a bunch of Sanctuaried Daemonhammer armed Terminators into my opponents Imperial Knights after casting Vortex of Doom and Hammerhand and it always works for me" then that might have been helpful as it would have given us an idea of what sort of unit works. A pair of silver baby carriers will also punch one out fairly easily and with sanctuary up, even have a reasonable chance at surviving.

 Drasius wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
My comparing them to LRBTs is a point by point, weapon by weapon equivalency. Yes, Knights are Walkers that move 12" and can assault, but LRBTs are AV14 on the front, have more weapon options, and are functionally MSU to a single Knight, which equals out survivability.

Point by point weapon equivalancy, what is the Leman russ equivalent of the reaper chainsword or RA 12 of a IK? What about the fact that you hit them on FA13 in CC (probably on 4's) as opposed to RA 10 (on 3's)? What about the fact that you will always get a 4++ vs shooting on a knight vs a Russ that can either have its cover be ignored or simply not be in cover in the first place? The tactical maneuverability of moving 12" and ignoring terrain for the most part? They are not the same and you are fooling yourself if you think they are.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Literally, if you cannot deal with 4 LRBTs at 1000pts (a not uncommon amount at that point level), you cannot deal with any vehicle heavy army. But if you can deal with 4 LRBTs at 1000pts, you can deal 2 IKs, which means bitching about the IKs is effectively telling the entire forum, "I can't deal with tanks! Please don't field tanks against me!"

Dealing with other mech armies is very, very different as not many can field that volume of FA 14 in low points games. Personally I would have thought that saying to the forum "I can't deal with Imperial Knights, please help" would be a sign that you could share your experience defeathing said Knights rather than giving condecending replies that boil down to l2p lol. Even if he did say "I can't deal with tanks", then help is the answer, not ranting about how easy it is.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
All I'm saying is put on your big boy pants and start planning on winning versus heavy mech armies. Take units that can either deal with tanks directly via shooting or melee, or that can ignore tanks via maneuverability and survival strategies.

As before, heavy mech is different from Knights. How are you going to outmanuever them when moving 12" is part of their shtick? Not everyone plays Eldar. The list of units that can deal with a Knight, let alone 2 in 1k, is a very, very short one. If you had've said something along the lines of "Put objectives in ruins and multi level buildings so the Knight can't assault them and then place units that can get 2+ cover saves on them such as Stealth Suits, Camo Scouts, Nurgle Daemons etc" then your post might have had some benefit. Knights (especially 2 in 1k) aren't going to reliably have ways to deal with units they can't assault that can gtg in cover.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Tarpitting a Knight with 20 Guants, or 30 Boyz or 50 Conscripts is effectly the same as killing the Knight, because it is out of play for 2-3 turns (or the rest of the game).

If you think Knights can't deal with multitides of armour 4 or less units in assault, then you're in for a rude shock if you ever play those armies! Stomps are Str 6 AP4, so units of marines actuall strike the best compromise between numbers and durability. Given that you're going to be catching 10+ models under the template each time and removing 5/6ths of them every turn, traditional tarpit units aren't worth much against knights. Considering that you can simply remove the priest from a conscript blob on a 6, once that happens, you'll run down the rest of the blob at the end of that phase.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Taking a Flyers with anti-tank weapons is a hard counter, just like Haywire units, or

Yep, first sensible thing you've said, but the knight player can also play smart and minimise their impact unless you take quite a few, which is, again, hard to do in 1k. Haywire does indeed wreck IK's faces though.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Drop Pod Melta. Sister Dominions with Meltaguns in Scouting/Infiltrating Rhinos/Melta Immolators will literally melt a Knight in one turn!

The Sternguard have a reasonable chance if they manage to come down and combat squad into both side and rear in melta range, netting 0.55 Glances and 5.55 pens (plus another 3.7 HP from Explodes! results), but those get knocked down to ~.41 glances, ~4.1 pens and another 2.7 from Explodes! after 4++ against 1 facing for a total of ~7.4. If he deploys so you can only get front armour (as a smart player would if he knew he was facing Drop Sternguard), then you're looking at ~4.4 HP after saves.

Sisters are in much the same boat but worse, as Infiltrate & Scout is going to leave you against front armour netting the same 4.4 HP after saves (assuming he doesn't get 1st turn and either wreck your day with shooting or simply move out of range) and risk being stuck in reserves and/or coming onto the wrong side of the board if outflanking.

In either case, it doesn't take much of a change in luck to go from Dead knight (who probably also took out whatever killed him with his deathsplosion) to very angry knight shooting ID pieplates with no saves in easy charge range of whatever just tried to smoke him. This also assumes that there is no area terrain for the knight to deploy in to get a 5+ against suicide sternguard (resulting on about 5.1 HP for the sternguard attacking from side/rear silultaneously) or any LoS blocking terrain to guard his back with forcing all the sternguard to come at him from 1 side.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Hidden Powerfists/Power-Klaws/Thunder-Hammers simply wreck Knights when it's D-str CC weapon can only kill 0-4 models from a 30-model blob,

Yep, 2nd thing you've got right, but only if you exchange Powerfist/Thunderhammer for Chainfist/Killsaw. Hitting on 4's and glancing on 5's with not many attacks isn't a recipe for success. If you've got more than a model or 2 with these, then you're running a very expensive VV or DC squad that isn't terribly good against many other armies. Again, difficult to fit many of these in with a TAC list at 1k and it's not really hidden very well and will almost certainly get shot down trying to make it across the board or when it stands around after deep striking or podding in.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
and its Stomps might hit 2-3 models per Blast.

You've never played knights with a elite squad have you? Given that you must bunch up into b2b where possible, you should be hitting 6+ models each stomp, of which you get d3.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
What I see here on this thread is a lot of paralysis through analysis, not actively engaging your creative thinking. Your codex is a toolbox of tools to deal with problems, and if your codex does not have the right tool, another codex will.

Do you even know what codex s/he plays? Not all armies have good answers to knights, and even then, sometimes it's rather specific units that s/he might not have available.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Btw, I play all-infantry pure Grey Knights most of the time, and I do not fear Tanks, Flyers, or big Stompy walkers. I plan for them, and play to my plan.

SJ

Good for you, not everyone else has the same options available to them. If you had said "I run a bunch of Sanctuaried Daemonhammer armed Terminators into my opponents Imperial Knights after casting Vortex of Doom and Hammerhand and it always works for me" then that might have been helpful as it would have given us an idea of what sort of unit works. A pair of silver baby carriers will also punch one out fairly easily and with sanctuary up, even have a reasonable chance at surviving.

Dakka gold. Have an Exalt.

As a Necron/Marine player, I can confirm that downing knights is a task to be handled similarly to downing the above mentioned 4 LRBTs (rapid fire Gauss/Meltacide pods respectively)

However, as a Knight player, I can also confirm that, unlike the 4 LRBTs, you cannot ignore the knight. they have a tendency to wreck gak in every aspect. I have had a solo knight net 4 victory points in a single turn, yet alone seen what 2 of them can do at a thousand points.

Most people tend to ignore the fact that the Knights tote D-Weapons for melee, which lends most of the solutions for combat armies to be balls to the wall suicidal charges. Even good assault units tend to get shredded by IKs in combat. I have seen them cut DKs, WKs, DPs and many TMCs in half without batting an eyelid.

Shooty flyers is the best way forward. Stormravens are the bane of my Knight at the moment, so similar levels of flying firepower are your friend for taking them out.

Not going to do a point by point, because its boring to read and too long, hence the spoiler.

The gist of your point by point is to take my argument apart and respond to each point out of context to the rest of my statement, in that you counter one point while ignoring the explanation found later in my post. My fault for writing a long post. I tackle a few of your statements, though:

It doesn't matter which codex you are using. Your codex either has the tools to deal with the problem, or it doesn't. If it does, then awesome sauce. If it doesn't, another codex does, which 7th addresses via detachments and formations. Stating that you have no options is in fact an admission that you haven't bothered to look for one.

Dealing with a problem does not equal hard counters. A Knight Titan can kill 0-1 models with HoW, 0-4 models with its D-Str sword, and 0+ models with its Stomps, for a min of 0 models to as much as an entire unit (maybe 2) in CC. So either avoid CC with it, such as using terrain, using distance, or Flyer placement, or tarpit it with a sacrificial unit. Knights can only tag Flyers or invisible units with their snap-fired Stubbers (for the non-FW Knights). Spreading out your models will midigate blast damage (duh). Use taller terrain. Play Maelstrom missions. Take your own hard counter units. Think outside the box.

As to my options versus everyone else's options, we all have the same options. We also chose to limit our options either directly via unit selection, or indirectly by unit selection. While I might not care about Anti-Air because I noted that Flyers are easy to defeat via place of my units on the table, others find counter-Flyers and/or heavy AA to be their preferred method of dealing with Flyers. My method of dealing with Tanks is heavy use of Psycannons, with just enough Daemon Hammers to go CC if needed. How do I deal with Knights? I've listed the way I deal with Knights above (I.e., ignore them, out maneuver them, spread out to midigate, hug terrain, shoot at them from multiple flanks, hunt them with a Stormraven, and/or charge them with hard counter units like my DreadKnights; I don't field enough models for a sacrificial tarpit, but other armies do).

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Not going to do a point by point, because its boring to read and too long, hence the spoiler.

The gist of your point by point is to take my argument apart and respond to each point out of context to the rest of my statement, in that you counter one point while ignoring the explanation found later in my post. My fault for writing a long post. I tackle a few of your statements, though:

It doesn't matter which codex you are using. Your codex either has the tools to deal with the problem, or it doesn't. If it does, then awesome sauce. If it doesn't, another codex does, which 7th addresses via detachments and formations. Stating that you have no options is in fact an admission that you haven't bothered to look for one.

Dealing with a problem does not equal hard counters. A Knight Titan can kill 0-1 models with HoW, 0-4 models with its D-Str sword, and 0+ models with its Stomps, for a min of 0 models to as much as an entire unit (maybe 2) in CC. So either avoid CC with it, such as using terrain, using distance, or Flyer placement, or tarpit it with a sacrificial unit. Knights can only tag Flyers or invisible units with their snap-fired Stubbers (for the non-FW Knights). Spreading out your models will midigate blast damage (duh). Use taller terrain. Play Maelstrom missions. Take your own hard counter units. Think outside the box.

As to my options versus everyone else's options, we all have the same options. We also chose to limit our options either directly via unit selection, or indirectly by unit selection. While I might not care about Anti-Air because I noted that Flyers are easy to defeat via place of my units on the table, others find counter-Flyers and/or heavy AA to be their preferred method of dealing with Flyers. My method of dealing with Tanks is heavy use of Psycannons, with just enough Daemon Hammers to go CC if needed. How do I deal with Knights? I've listed the way I deal with Knights above (I.e., ignore them, out maneuver them, spread out to midigate, hug terrain, shoot at them from multiple flanks, hunt them with a Stormraven, and/or charge them with hard counter units like my DreadKnights; I don't field enough models for a sacrificial tarpit, but other armies do).

SJ

The intention wasn't to address some points out of context, it was to address specific points that I felt were inaccurate or misleading or just flat out incorrect as you made them. I can't see where there was a single thing in there that was taken out of context.

The codex you are using is very relevant, some simply do not have the tools to defeat multiple knights and remain competative against other threats, and paying double HQ & troops taxes in 1k is really not going to help. Stating s/he has no options simply means s/he can't see them or can't recognise them, so we should be helping, not just shouting that the answer is obvious and walking away.

A knight can also pop transports, double out multi-wound T4 and remove swathes of infantry at long range if they aren't in cover. If they are in cover, they can't manuver to stay out of range. Fliers don't always come on T2, and even when they do, they'll still have to actually do damage to the knight and get though the ion shield. I've watched a Stormraven and Stormtalon both bounce an entire round of shooting off one of my knights and achieve nothing bar a slight scuffing of the paintwork, not a single HP gone! Tarpitting is not as easy as you make it sound if you don't have access to numerous Sv3+ infantry as anything tougher but in lesser numbers will eat chainsword while anything with a worse armour save will get stomped out very quickly. I've mulched 50 man infantry blobs in 2 rounds due to stomps, Orks won't fare much better if their hidden Klaw doesn't manage an obscene number of Explodes! results.

Stomps also ignore invisible units, so getting into CC tends to kill that plan unless you're casting invis on a killy deathstar (again, we're considering 1k points) that can only be in 1 place, so what're you going to do about the other knight rampaging around the table?

Some armies can deal with knights, some can even do it with a TAC list, but most require tailoring, and some can't really manage even then. This problem is only compounded at low points like 1k. If you can't see that, try building a TAC list that can easily deal with Knights with one of the weaker codecies and play it out at your local. You might just find that against a competent knight player, you'll be in for a much rougher ride than you expect.

Fought an opponent with 6 Knights once (with some other supporting units)..... one of the most awesome yet one-sided games I've ever had. At least I got to play an epic last stand:
The Knights butchered everything around my fortress and then converged on it, laying waste to my Veterans who resolutely held their ground in the face of such devastation. As the fortress fell apart under the Knight's assault my SWS attacked through an escape hatch and brought down one of the Knights; a glorious last act of defiance.

Whilst my army struggles with a lot of armour, I actually had fun versus his Knights though. He probably could have stayed back and bombarded my Fortress into submission from range but he decided to charge in with the rule of cool and give me one hell of a fight.