Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I just read most of the Tau Codex today and I have to say:

Where's the GrimDark?

Seriously: I haven't really explored their background before now (always had a thing for the Imperium) and now that I have I'm a little...well confused I guess. On the surface at least they seem, to me, to be a little out of character for the whole setting. Well, maybe that's too strong. They at LEAST seem to probably be the best option a person has for avoiding the horrors of the 41st millennium (at least until the Imperium goes and stomps all over their sandcastle!)

What do you guys think? Is the Tau Empire actually the secret light of hope in the 41st millennium? I mean it's almost like: “In the GrimDark Future of the 41st millennium there is only WAR!...and trading, peace, cultural development, technological progress, and an insistence on everyone working towards the greater good! ...but, you know, still mostly WAR!”

You didn't actually read the codex if you didn't catch the grimdark. Don't start this tired old hat meme garbage here, please. "Tau aren't grimdark" is almost as annoying as "_________ is an Alpha Legion plot!"

Uhm...did I miss something? I'm sorry if I'm rehashing something someone else already said. I totally didn't mean to if I did. I literally just read most of the fluff from the codex and wanted to discuss it. I totally didn't mean to offend you, or anyone else.

Seriously though: did I miss something obvious about the Tau? From the description it sounds like they were heading into a grimdark direction and then totally pulled their @#$% together. They don't sound particularly, you know, awesome to live under...but still a lot better than the alternatives.

...So what did I miss?

Would you call 1984 a grimdark novel?

@OP

thatsthejoke.jpg

In all seriousness, there are two meaningful theories about how Tau are GrimDark:

(1) External Theory: the Tau themselves really aren't GrimDark at all but it is super GrimDark that this reasonable young race finds itself surrounded by terrifying, bloodthirsty alien lifeforms (including humans btw); in essence, Tau are non-GrimDark to emphasize just how Grim and Dark everything else is

(2) Internal Theory: Tau society looks as clean and wholesome as a shiny new iPhone but it is actually a soul crushing collectivist tyranny; or in other words, GrimDark means that anything that seems okay is in reality completely evil

Thanks Manchu! That actually makes a lot more sense.

Personally, when reading it anyway, I took it more like your External Theory. They seem to mirror mankind in a lot of ways and provide a neat look into just how dark and scary the whole universe is around them. They also seem practically set up to fail, which I also think is a kinda neat addition.

The internal theory also seems to be popular (at least judging by other threads that I just looked up) but, to me, this makes me wonder how much of that is just speculation and fearmongering on the part of us humans (sorta like a space version of the "threat of communism")

I wonder, aside from the Codex: is there any other material out there (preferably novels) that sheds more light on their neat and nuanced society?

The Tau hide their grimdark. They're an oppressive caste society. You're born into your role. You can't move from caste to caste. Everyone serves "the Greater Good." You don't get a choice on the matter. The Ethereals lie, cheat, mind control, bribe, steal, and murder to ensure compliance of member species. The Vespid are all-but explicitly stated to be under the direct mental control of the Tau. Kroot are savage and amoral cannibal mercenaries who fight solely for money. Gue'vesa are gleefully sterilized.

If you really want to get a feel for the grimdark, read the Farsight Enclaves fluff. The Ethereals know about Chaos and the Warp and they keep their entire empire in the dark, like the Emperor tried to do with his "Imperial Truth" nonsense. The whole society is a Brave New World & 1984 nod, and the only, only reason that people think Tau aren't grimdark is because all the other factions are so in-your-face about it.

Let's look at some of the castes:

The Earth Caste work in terrible conditions to keep the empire supplied with the wargear and supplies that fuel its aggressive expansion. The luckiest of the Earth Caste get to work on miserable farms and live in hopeless drudgery; the unlucky ones are sent to hellish factories, where maimed workers are thrown out in the streets to die. Only a few are realistically going to make it past Fio'la.

The Water Caste are merchants, diplomats, and the state media. The T'au word for "news report" is por'hui - the direct translation of this is "unclear water," i.e. the citizens of the empire are aware that the state lies to them. Tau diplomats hide behind naivety but are, in actuality, extremely cunning and ruthless.

The Fire Caste are meant to be the army, essentially, but what about all the soldiers not on the front? They're military police. Think Gestapo or KGB. Speak up too loud? The Fire Caste disappears you with a black bag over your head and murders you offsite for the sake of expedience. The rest of society is too terrified to question it. And the ones on the front? Most Shas'la are gonna be meatgrinder casualties even with Tau modern warfare training.

The Air Caste... I got nothin.'

But the Ethereals? They use some kind of pheromone control over the citizens of the empire. Their orders are obeyed without question and they are held in high esteem to the point of hero worship. Think cult of personality. Josef Stalin. Adolf Hitler. Kim Jong-Un. These are the guys that watch the rest. They view the rest of the galaxy with suspicion and rightly so. They know the secrets that the populace can't be trusted with, and they aren't telling anyone anytime soon. Their word is sacred immutable law.

That's scary. At least the rest of the galaxy will just kill you, the Tau are so much more ... insidious.

My opinion about the Tau has shifted over the years. I used to believe in the Internal Theory quite strongly, especially given some information about how the Tau treat humans they conquered in some Dark Heresy (40k RPG currently published by FFG) materials. In that source, the Tau are presented as brainwashing humans. Any humans who don't buy into the Greater Good "vanish" into concentration camps. Some Tau fans claim either (a) this is Imperial propaganda or (b) the Tau who did these things are some weird offshoot of normative Tau society. I think those are both terrible fanboy excuses. But the real question is not whether Tau culture is tyrannical and oppressive by IRL human standards. They are aliens after all. Maybe their social customs only appear scary from a human point of view. Maybe contemporary IRL human values, such as emphasizing individual freedom, would terrify the Tau. After all, their whole race was in danger of regression until the Ethereals introduced Tau'Va.

Some suggested supplemental reading would be Kill Team (novel) and Fire Warrior (novel). The former shows the Tau at their diplomatic best, while the latter shows the dark side of Tau psychology - what happens when you separate out a Shas from his team and the Ethereals' influence (and the direct physiological effects of them returning to inside the Ethereal's range), as well as the fate of Tau war heroes.

The irony of the Tau is, in almost any other setting, they'd be the bad guys. They are dark and gritty, under the clean shiny surface. However, because of how OTT grim dark 40k is, the Tau come off as the good guys.

Really modern 40K is not very grimdark, despite what it says on the advertising. It's been losing its elements of parody and dystopianism and turning more into traditional heroic fantasy (perhaps under the pressure of marketing to a wider and younger demographic?).

There are elements of that, yes. Someone was complaining the other day about how the opening scrawl didn't make sense, because the Imperium doesn't feel like a cruel and bloody regime, not compared to the Dark Eldar.

 Manchu wrote:
My opinion about the Tau has shifted over the years. I used to believe in the Internal Theory quite strongly, especially given some information about how the Tau treat humans they conquered in some Dark Heresy (40k RPG currently published by FFG) materials. In that source, the Tau are presented as brainwashing humans. Any humans who don't buy into the Greater Good "vanish" into concentration camps. Some Tau fans claim either (a) this is Imperial propaganda or (b) the Tau who did these things are some weird offshoot of normative Tau society. I think those are both terrible fanboy excuses. But the real question is not whether Tau culture is tyrannical and oppressive by IRL human standards. They are aliens after all. Maybe their social customs only appear scary from a human point of view. Maybe contemporary IRL human values, such as emphasizing individual freedom, would terrify the Tau. After all, their whole race was in danger of regression until the Ethereals introduced Tau'Va.

I'm sure for MOST Tau (there will always be non conformists in any society) ideas like individual freedom are indeed pretty scary. just like someone from the IoM would find our westren ideals of religous tolerance absolutly horrifying.

The Imperium as portrayed by Abnett is about as grimdark and dystopian as Belgium.

Alcibiades wrote:
The Imperium as portrayed by Abnett is about as grimdark and dystopian as Belgium.

Abnett that's the guy who wrote the stories about a man whose part of the Imperium's secrect police inanswerable to no one, and shows just how corrupt it can be right?

BrianDavion wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
The Imperium as portrayed by Abnett is about as grimdark and dystopian as Belgium.

Abnett that's the guy who wrote the stories about a man whose part of the Imperium's secrect police inanswerable to no one, and shows just how corrupt it can be right?

So... like Belgium?

BrianDavion wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
The Imperium as portrayed by Abnett is about as grimdark and dystopian as Belgium.

Abnett that's the guy who wrote the stories about a man whose part of the Imperium's secrect police inanswerable to no one, and shows just how corrupt it can be right?

A dystopian setting is not something that "can be corrupt, oh and here's our hero who just hates the corruption," it is something that is totally and thoroughly corrupt and there are no heroes who hate it; there are at most victims who are crushed by it.

The Imperium as presented in Eisenhorn doesn't even reach film noir levels. Real-life early-19th-century Britain eclipses its grimdarkness quotient by about 1000 times (debtoris prisons, the death penalty for petty theft, public executions that the whole family attends for entertainment).

Actual grimdark is something like 1984 or I Have No Mouth but I Must Scream.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abnettverse also has a bizarre near-absence of religion. The Ecclesiarchy is there but it's off on the sidelines. It's not the Iran-on-steroids theocracy that the Imperium is presented as in other places.

I do find tau interesting. they don't actually have jails, crime is viewed as a mental illness. They have a conformist society, one where working together is a must. This is influenced by their history. Their time of darkness (the mon'tau IIRC) is a time when there was such infighting that they nearly wiped themselves out. Etherials are treated in such high regard partly because of the fact that they saved the tau from extinction, and brought them to the place they are now. I can only assume that rest is caused by hundreds of generations of people being taught that etherials are amazing.

It's all because Alpharius intentionally helped create the warpstorm that cut them off. He has shown that he doesn't mind humanity being erradicated for the greater good of the galaxy after the Cabal's warning. Since he failed in this after aiding Horus to help benefit the rest of the galaxy, he sought to help out a part of the galaxy himself, in this case the tau. The plan being to influence the galaxy bit by bit to bring about the end of chaos (by bringing about the end of humanity), hence trade, peace, cultural development and technological advancement.
All in all, it is an Alpha Legion plot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Disclaimer:
Do not take seriously.

The Tau are largely based on Brave New World, as opposed to the 1984 of the Imperium (or as the Imperium used to be portrayed). Does a universe in which everybody is happy count as grimdark? Not from their point of view, but looking on from the outside it is horrible because we know that these people have had their souls (metaphorical use of "souls") stolen from them.

The Grimdark of the Tau Empire? Right now they can expand and mature, and any deserting human will probably have a better life. But as soon as the Imperium gets a half-century of breathing space between major Chaos or Nid invasions or major Waaagh!s, the Tau will be wiped off the face of the universe.

Yeah, I kinda feel that way too. Right now they seem simply too bright and young to live in the 40k verse. All they need is a hive fleet, a good chaos incursion, or an ork Waaaagh going right through their lands and they will probably be utterly destroyed.

Or, as you said: just wait for the Imperium to get around with dealing with them.

Heh, "maybe man is the greatest monster..."

leerm02 wrote:

Uhm...did I miss something? I'm sorry if I'm rehashing something someone else already said. I totally didn't mean to if I did. I literally just read most of the fluff from the codex and wanted to discuss it. I totally didn't mean to offend you, or anyone else.

Seriously though: did I miss something obvious about the Tau? From the description it sounds like they were heading into a grimdark direction and then totally pulled their @#$% together. They don't sound particularly, you know, awesome to live under...but still a lot better than the alternatives.

...So what did I miss?

You missed the concentration camps for those who don't comply with the greater good. How non-Tau are relegated to being second class citizens.The ultimatums which are given to planets they come across(join or die). The total control they exert over every aspect of society, even more than the Imperium actually. The Tau control every aspect of life. The Imperium really only cares that you worship the Emperor, pay your taxes, and don't follow Chaos. The Tau tell you who you can marry, what work you do, what you do in your freetime. Its far more insidious in its subtlety.

You want to know something terrible? I think I totally actually read either 5th or 6th edition of the codex...

I only realized this today though. I'm guessing that may be a big part of why I didn't see some of the things people are talking about.

My mistake!

But back on subject:

The more I hear about them the more I actually have to say I like the subtle nature of the Tau and their evil/oppressive society. I mean: take orks. Orks are basically just big nasty brutes who want to smash, destroy, eat, and then smash again. Seeing where they fit in is kinda a no brainer. The Tau are way more nuanced than that though.

The simple fact that not only THIS thread, but also others similar to it exist for discussion means that the fluff writers really went out and made a legitimately progressive addition to the universe. We already have mindless insect killing machines, nearly mindless brutal monsters of various varieties, mysterious and nearly incomprehensible aliens (of several flavors)...but the Tau represent an evil that is both very understandable to us and also coloured in such a way as to be detectably good.

I mean: would you rather slave away your whole short, miserable life on some imperial hive world, forgotten in terrible poverty and living on scraps while fearing for your life daily...or live in relative safety in a controlled authoritarian society dedicated in some small way towards progress?

They aren't great options, but I think that exactly this sort of thing helps keep the universe fresh after all these years.

My verdict, I think, is this: The Tau aren't quite as horrible as some of the alternatives, but they are far from being the "good guys" as well.

Well done 40k! :-)

You know how the Imperium tries desperately to control the lives of it's entire population, but there's still unrest, dissent and revolution which the Imperium keeps having to beat down?

The Tau don't struggle with such things because they deal with all such problems much more efficiently.
Let the implications of that sink in and you won't think the Tau are so 'rainbows and butterflies' anymore.

Alcibiades wrote:
The Imperium as portrayed by Abnett is about as grimdark and dystopian as Belgium.

To be fair, Abnett's stuff is heavily derivative. He's not telling 40K stories. He's just telling other stories, adapted for 40K.

So in Double Eagle, the pilots return from the front and one of the protagonists strikes up a friendship with a waitress in a 1940s cafe, because Double Eagle is just a WW2 fighter squadron serial with Thunderbolts instead of, well, P-47 Thunderbolts. In Prospero Burns, a spacefaring, high technology culture like the Space Marines don't have a written language, so they need Antonio Banderas to draw sounds for them because Prospero Burns is just The 13th Warrior adapted for 40K. So I guess Abnett's 40K is going to be as grimdark as whatever his latest inspiration is.


But yeah, as somebody said above, the Tau Empire's structure was lifted pretty much wholesale from Aldous Huxley's novel Brave New World, with a society consisting of five castes bred exclusively for their specific roles in society, forbidden from interbreeding, and where everyone is kept happy believing they inhabit the perfect space in society. Then they gave them the Farsight Enclaves, which is a group that split off to do its own thing (presumably because Farsight saw through the ruse). I highly suggest reading that book (Brave New World), whether you're interested in the Tau or not. It's quite excellent.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The irony of the Tau is, in almost any other setting, they'd be the bad guys. They are dark and gritty, under the clean shiny surface. However, because of how OTT grim dark 40k is, the Tau come off as the good guys.

Exactly. Tau are grimdark because the bright and shining hope of the setting is a generic Evil Scifi Empire that is only "good" because they're pragmatic enough to use science and engineering to build better guns to kill you instead of letting insane religious zealots decide that building practical weapons is a capital offense, and to offer you a chance to surrender and be absorbed into their empire instead of mindlessly slaughtering everything in their path. Honestly, I'm tired of people thinking that Tau need to be more "grimdark" by doing stupid stuff just for the sake of showing off how evil they are.

 AtoMaki wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
The Imperium as portrayed by Abnett is about as grimdark and dystopian as Belgium.

Abnett that's the guy who wrote the stories about a man whose part of the Imperium's secrect police inanswerable to no one, and shows just how corrupt it can be right?

So... like Belgium?

http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Belgium

I'll leave it at that