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Okay, so I'm doing a bit of a theoretical deep dive and examination of several of the "worthless" or 'not usable' units in the Chaos Space Marine Codexes. In this post I'm going to post my take and analysis of the unit in question, and then I'd like feed on the unit and my analysis. I’ve already begun threads of the same type that deal with the Thousand Sons, Khorne Berzerkers, HelBrutes and Forgefiends. This thread I want to look at the Defiler.



So the Defiler. The Crab walker. The First original Chaos tank.... walker....dread.... thing. So short version, you get 4 legs, 2 power fists and 3 guns, one of them a battle cannon which is always a nice little bonus.
For 195 points you get a 4 HP AV 12-12-10 walker that is WS/BS3 S8 and 3 attacks. It counts as a daemon, so it gets a 5+ invulnerable, it gets Fleet, it Will not Die and Daemonforge. Stock it comes with a rather impressive impressive list of guns and toys including a Battle Cannon, Reaper Autocannon, a Twin-linked Heavy Flamer, Two power fists, Daemonic Possession, search light and smoke launchers. Okay, nice little load out. Since it's a walker it can fire all of it's weapons at full BS. So boom a squad with the battle cannon, then shred 'em with the Reaper Autocannon shots and then charge them to beat them to death with your two power fists.

The Defiler doesn't have a lot of options but it does have some good ones. First it can replace its Heavy Flamer with a Havoc launcher. A respectable weapon all told with a 48" range, S5 ap5 Blast Twin-linked weapon. Okay, nothing really earth shattering but for 5 points? Not a bad option all told.

The second replacement option for the Heavy flamer is with a power scourge. You know that arm thing with the 6 whips and flails on it? The thing was once a Dreadnought close combat weapon, and then was the "living Vehicle upgrade"? Yeah now it's a power scourge. Which means that It is a S8 AP2 weapon that causes all models in base contact to loose D3 from their WS. Okay, that is note worthy. Hey Mr. Wraith Lord! I’m gonna come charge you! Oh lookie you’re WS 2 now. So I hit you on 3+ while you hit me on 4+. Now this option is a bit steeper in price coming in at 25 points.

The Reaper Autocannon have 3 options for replacing it. The first is a free replacement with a power fist. Okay, 3 power fists. Nice. The 2nd option is a Twin-linked Heavy Bolter. This seems a bit meh all told. The Reaper Auto-cannon is already twin-linked and S7 AP4. The Heavy Bolters are the same range and same AP value with S5. The only real advantage the Heavy Bolters give is being heavy 3 compared to the reapers heavy 2. So 3 twin-linked shots at S5 AP4 or 2 shots twin-linked shots at S7 ap4. I'll be honest if I had to pay for the upgrade, even it was as little as 2 points I would ignore it out right. But since it's free... eh it's harmless enough. Which yeah, I know how that sounds. I guess if you need to rely on sheer volume of fire the Heavy bolters are needed.

The final option to replace the reaper autocannons is with a twin-linked Lascannon for 20 points. Well, it's a twin-linked lascannon. What else is there to say? Need some ranged armor punch, here's the option. It is 20 points though.

The Defiler does have access to the Chaos Vehicle equipment list. I'll be honest, of all the options available to the Defiler, I feel like this is where the Defiler really gets made better or worse. 5 Point combi-bolter? Okay extra gun is never a bad thing. Add 5 points for a one-shot melta gun to that bolter? Okay worth it I'd say. Warp Flame Gargoyales... well they give you soul blaze to all your weapons.It can take a Havoc launcher for 12 points. Bit of an odd price point, but okay. This DOES appear to be in addition to the Havoc launcher it can replace it's heavy flamer with. It can take extra armor... but why would you? It already has daemonic possession, so it ignores crew shaken and stunned on a 2+. 10 points for that extra little garuntee... eh play it by ear based on your list.

So some ideas for the defiler:
Pounda-filer: 3 power fists, Power Scourge with Dirge Casters and Warp Flame gargoyles. 6 attacks on the charge, S10 attacks that shuts down a units ability to over watch it. Everything in base to base with it looses D3 WS. And every wound it lands has a chance to set the target unit on fire. Yeah That's gonna hurt when it hits your line. Oh and it still comes with a battle cannon. Comes in at 230 points

Dakka-filer: Give it 2 Havoc launchers, a Combi-weapon, a Combi-bolter, Warp Flame Gargoyles. Okay, so you're going to be putting out 1 S8 AP3 large blast, 2 S7 Ap4 Twin-linked shots, 2 twin-linked S5 AP5 blasts, plus 2 more S4 ap5 shots, and all of these shots will have the chance to cause soul blaze on the target unit. This configuration comes in at 232 points. Oh and you've still 4 attacks on the charge or 3 flat footed that are S10 AP2.

N'ked Filer: Well, it's a defiler with no extra options. So you'll get the Battle cannon shot, the Reaper autocannon shots, and the Heavy flamer shots along with the two power fists. It comes in at 195 points.

So... the defiler. Why don't we see it more? Well I'm sure people are going to disagree with me for what I'm about to say but I'm going to say it anyway. It's an over costed, unfocused mess. I honestly feel that for its abilities and what it comes with, it should be about 20 points cheaper. It would still be expensive, but I feel that a reduction by about 20 points would make the Defiler much more appealing and manageable addition to an army list. As it stands now, when naked it's kind of a beefier dreadno... sorry, helbrute with out the crazies... at close to 2x the price but with out the benefits of the data slate the Helbrute got. Start kitting it out for a paticular battle field role, and you're getting up into the cost prohibitive ranges. Want maximum fire saturation abilities? Gonna run 232 points. Want a super-pounder? Gonna be about the same. At that price point I'm honestly looking at Terminator for volume of attacks and number of wounds they would bring to the field for the same or less cost in points. Or Havocs for the fire power angle.

So what are your thoughts on the Defiler?

We don't see it for multiple reasons.
1. Designers overvalue generalist units. At base it is around 200 points.
2. Specialists are ending being cheaper. Maulerfiends are already quick to enter melee, Forgefiends can take Plasma Cannons for range shooting, and Obliterators are Obliterators. All these options don't require much investment.
3. The Defiler isn't really durable. AV12, even with a 5++, isn't hard to shoot to death. 4HP helps, but you're paying essentially 200 points for AV12. That's absurd.

the biggest drawback for me is that if you fire the battle cannon, you're snapshotting everything else that turn (due to the ordnance rule). that means no shooting your heavy flamer or havoc launcher that turn, if you've bought those.

my defiler was the first chaos model I painted up and I run it all the time. it's never been an amazing unit for me, but it's never been a complete waste of points either. I usually have 2-3 other armored units on the table (rhinos, predators), so it isn't the only AV target. I usually park it in cover near an objective and just fire off the battle cannon all game (snapshooting the reaper autocannon, because why not?). I've run it into assault a few times, though, and done ok. I can't say that it's ever made it's points back, but I view it as more of a psychological weapon. my opponents fear that large blast and will adjust their tactics accordingly, which is often something I can take advantage of even if I'm not blowing up units left and right with it.

it's a fun unit, but it's overpriced and the ordnance rule really hurts it.

Maverike_prime wrote:

For 195 points you get a 4 HP AV 12-12-10 walker

That would be the main problem right there.
Also, you pay for weapons that you can't use in the same turn.
Basically, it's less than the sum of its parts.

I got the defiler to work the same way as I got the Forge Fiend to work, I fielded it with several other walkers, where any opponent can cause up 36 S6 hits or 18 S7 hits pretty fast (Which is what it takes on average to kill a Defiler, assuming front armour), 4-6 walkers might be a problem. The Defiler is probably not seen due to a combination of factors:
1 It is expensive for what it can do
2 It needs to be in an army where it won't be the only target for S6+ shots, and if an army like this is taken, why not take a vindicator if you want large blasts, or maulerfiends if you want CC?
3 It has a wierd loadout and wierd upgrades, many of the weapons does not synchronize well, for example Battle Cannon and other Blasts/Templates.

What it does do that nothing else does is that it is a good psychological weapon, as a previous poster stated, people fear it since it can do well in both CC and at range, so they will try to kill it, which leaves room for the rest of your army to advance. I play mine with 2 maulerfiends, 5 spawn, a Decimator and a Sonic Dread/Blood Slaughterer, plus Cultist Chaff, and run most things up the board, and in my vehicle-light meta, it kind of works.

If you're using Forge World then take the Plague Hulk.

I'm not getting why there's this hate for the Defiler. My brother uses his to devastating effect. For some reason his BS3 daemon engine is remarkably accurate! (almost always hits the intended target!)

We see it so little because the soul grinder does it better for cheaper. Defiler is what happens when you roll the soul grinder variants into one. On top of that, AV12 just doesn't cut it for a ~200pt model. If the cost was the same, and defilers were 13/13/11 like the soul grinder, we might see them more often. No pens from S7 goes a long way these days. No more fearing lucky plasma, tesla or autocannon shots.

Not to mention that a battlecannon just isn't good when 2+ cover and 2++ rerollables are very easy to come by.

You also forgot to mention the dirge caster in your equipment overview.

It also suffers from being in the heavy support slot, which is where Obliterators live.

It is a daemon though, so Cursed earth will up its 5++ to a 4++, which certainly isn't terrible, but probably still not good enough for 200 points, and cursed earth isn't a surety unless you're taking lots of daemons, in which case why aren't you taking a soul grinder which is better for cheaper?

When you consider this is basically 1/2 an imperial knight, it's a pretty sad comparison.

 Drasius wrote:

You also forgot to mention the dirge caster in your equipment overview.

No I didn't. I mentioned them under the Pounda-filer build.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 varl wrote:
the biggest drawback for me is that if you fire the battle cannon, you're snapshotting everything else that turn (due to the ordnance rule).

actually I'm reading the ordnance weapon rule now. it states:

"When shooting, a model with an Ordnance weapon fires the number of times indicated in its profile after its type. A nonvehicle model carrying an Ordnance weapon cannot fire it in the shoot phase is he moved in the preceding Movement phase. Ordnance weapons fire Snap Shots. Furthermore, if a non-vehicle model fires and Ordnance weapon, then the massive recoil from the Ordnance weapons means that the model cannot fire other weapons that phase, nor will it be able to charge in the ensuing Assault phase."

So... since the Defiler is actually a vehicle it can fire the Battle cannon and still fire other weapons. And since it is a Walker type vehicle, it can fire all of its weapons at it's normal BS.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

You also forgot to mention the dirge caster in your equipment overview.

No I didn't. I mentioned them under the Pounda-filer build.

That's why I specified "in your equipment overview".

Maverike_prime wrote:

 varl wrote:
the biggest drawback for me is that if you fire the battle cannon, you're snapshotting everything else that turn (due to the ordnance rule).

actually I'm reading the ordnance weapon rule now. it states:

"When shooting, a model with an Ordnance weapon fires the number of times indicated in its profile after its type. A nonvehicle model carrying an Ordnance weapon cannot fire it in the shoot phase is he moved in the preceding Movement phase. Ordnance weapons fire Snap Shots. Furthermore, if a non-vehicle model fires and Ordnance weapon, then the massive recoil from the Ordnance weapons means that the model cannot fire other weapons that phase, nor will it be able to charge in the ensuing Assault phase."

So... since the Defiler is actually a vehicle it can fire the Battle cannon and still fire other weapons. And since it is a Walker type vehicle, it can fire all of its weapons at it's normal BS.

"Vehicles & Ordnance Weapons
Unlike other units, vehicles can move and fire with ordnance weapons. However, a vehicle that fires an ordnance weapon can only make snap shots with other weapons that turn."

 Drasius wrote:
"Vehicles & Ordnance Weapons
Unlike other units, vehicles can move and fire with ordnance weapons. However, a vehicle that fires an ordnance weapon can only make snap shots with other weapons that turn."

If not for that one, little thing the defiler would be a much more interesting heavy weapons platform

I run a ''''''''''''''pounda-filer'''''''''''''''''' (minus warpflame gargoyles because they are depressing and no dirge caster either as overwatch is usually irrelevant).

It does okay, but that is only because I face uncompetetive lists. From an objective standpoint, it is a bad unit.

 Drasius wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

You also forgot to mention the dirge caster in your equipment overview.

No I didn't. I mentioned them under the Pounda-filer build.

That's why I specified "in your equipment overview".

Maverike_prime wrote:

 varl wrote:
the biggest drawback for me is that if you fire the battle cannon, you're snapshotting everything else that turn (due to the ordnance rule).

actually I'm reading the ordnance weapon rule now. it states:

"When shooting, a model with an Ordnance weapon fires the number of times indicated in its profile after its type. A nonvehicle model carrying an Ordnance weapon cannot fire it in the shoot phase is he moved in the preceding Movement phase. Ordnance weapons fire Snap Shots. Furthermore, if a non-vehicle model fires and Ordnance weapon, then the massive recoil from the Ordnance weapons means that the model cannot fire other weapons that phase, nor will it be able to charge in the ensuing Assault phase."

So... since the Defiler is actually a vehicle it can fire the Battle cannon and still fire other weapons. And since it is a Walker type vehicle, it can fire all of its weapons at it's normal BS.

"Vehicles & Ordnance Weapons
Unlike other units, vehicles can move and fire with ordnance weapons. However, a vehicle that fires an ordnance weapon can only make snap shots with other weapons that turn."

Ah, when you said the Ordnance rule that was what I looked up. My bad.

Awful awful model. Shoe box on legs.

Soul grinder with nice AV13 is the way to go (if you have the allies for it).

The defiler gives your opponent a bit of a surprise and a battle cannon is useful against MEQs.

I could be tempted by 3 if I knew I was facing a horde (and had the models) but generally far too expensive for what it can do.

I ran a triple defiler list to good effect in the previous codex (at the tail end of 5th and the beginning of 6th). The difference was the defiler was around 135 points back then IIRC. Even if I am off a bit, it was still substantially cheaper than the 195 points it is now. Now, it is extremely overcosted and out performed by other units. I would not go so far as to call it useless, but there are better ways to spend your points in the heavy slot.

It's not a great unit, but it's weaknesses are exacerbated when people run it as a shooty model. I've had much more luck with it when I forgo the first turn of shooting with the Battle Cannon and just run instead. The Defiler has fleet, so you can reliably get a 4-5" run move, which allows it to threaten the opponent with a turn 2 charge. And the Defiler is no slouch in close combat - it's one of the few walkers that can take more than 2 close combat weapons (up to 4!), and so can get 6 attacks base. With so many attacks, it can't always just be tarpitted (it will chew through models). And it can take a Power Scourge, which mitigates it's mediocre WS when fighting one-on-one.

hmm, that's an interesting thought. I might just try running mine into the combat the next time I get a chance to play...

Thats what i do. I've swapped out all the guns for ccws (except battle cannon) it gets 7 s8 or10 attacks on the charge with all the goodness of them if infantry i use the scorge and vehicals or t5's get the fist.
Against infantry its a good idea to not kill them all then second round activate the forge and usually kill the rest leving you to charge another unit or drop a shell on something else if nothing else presents its self.
The difiler is a shock for an opponant. It is overcosted by 30-40pts but i still use mine.
y

At 150 points it was fine. 6th edition's change to walkers (hitting on WS with grenades) and assault problems (reduced charge distance, no run and charge from fleet) and then the ordnance change to snapfiring really put the nail in the coffin.


If they gave it NOT a battle cannon, and instead gave it some other weapon with a similar statline without the ordnance rule, then it could be awesome. "Battle cannon", double havoc launcher and combi-plasma could throw a lot of wounds out there.

Armor 13 would definitely make it slightly closer to worthwhile, but at 200 points it would need more oomph, especially if it's expected to just fire one weapon.

If it were to stay AV12 and 200 points, I think its battle cannon should ignore cover. It just needs SOMETHING. I used to run 2. Now it never sees the table.