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So yeah, for years people have been wanting the game to get renewed, and the story to move forward. Decades even. Some are very unhappy about this.

How did the unsatisfied people expect the story arc to go forward so that the story also goes forward? Chaos attacks, but the defenders defend? That would be the same scenario as we've had for ages with basically nothing changing afaic.

And what of you who have been demanding the game getting a reboot. It is now happening ( most likely ) so you are getting what you wanted (?) I realize there are also people who wanted neither of these things, but it is infact, impossible to please everyone in a community as large as this. Someone will always be let down.

As for armies getting completely removed, I don't believe it for a second. It's just rumours which are based on nothing. There could be some "sisters of battle" -fates, but complete removal when there's hundreds of thousands of people with armies around for said factions? Yeah. no. I believe what is now happening is good for FB, and I pray that the renewed game will be better. GW now has a shot at something big, I hope they make it count. I get the feeling the company is taking a new direction with things along with the new CEO and gak is finally getting done, instead of the old game being slightly changed with each edition.

It's do or die, and quite frankly I think any outcome is better than this withering that has been going on for a while.

People wanting the story to move forward were asking for a fun trip via car across vast landscapes.

GW decided to "move forward" by driving into the nearest tree at full speed.

Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.

1) Not EVERYone wanted the story to be moved forward / rebooted / changed. It's clear from the comments that some people just liked having the big, open map *there* so that they could insert themselves into it however they wished (largely by selectively ignoring the fluff). Others actually like the old fluff.

2) And yet more others are turned off by rumours that, I suspect, are being completely misinterpreted and blown out of proportion. They're basically assuming that GW is tossing out WHFB, its fluff, and its armies in their entirety and introducing an ENTIRELY new game built from scratch.



Quite frankly I think that's ludicrous, and I highly doubt it's what we'll see happen. There is ample room to interpret these rumours in a way that fundamentally alters the fluff, and perhaps the business structure, in a way that doesn't really change the effective game or play experience.


Which is 100% alright with me. I'd be GLAD for a system where I get more models for my primary army than once every 5-10 years. Where I can start a new army a unit at a time by incorporating them into an existing force, rather than having to build an ENTIRE NEW ARMY from fething scratch just to play with it. I mean hell...the only reason I started VC is because I figured I could recycle a whole whack of my TK models.


Look at how many people have picked up elements of new armies for ET games. That's an easy entry point into starting a new army. Build two skull cannons and some daemonettes for your LoC force, and it's not too hard to jump into a full on demon army, or a demon army with WoC elements.

Right now you might as well go pick up a Warmahordes army instead of starting a second WHFB one. Every army is essentially an entirely separate product line, with no incentive to jump from one to the next save system mastery.

It's defently do or die now. The last thing fantasy needs is more people to leave the game. Going to be a interesting year for WHFB.

I don't speak for others. But while I think a world stuck in stasis can get tedious after a while, I do not think that wiping everything out completely is a good way to move forward.

And I think the quality of writing in the whole end times thing has been poor to abysmal.

I don't mind things changing, but I think have every right to criticize when I believe that change is done badly.

I think what people who said they wanted to move forward was more like 'exploring various "here be dragons" areas on the vast, interesting map, and changing something every now and then while keeping the feel of the setting' and less 'Skaven blow up the moon and everything is destroyed, thanks for playing!'

It's the difference between Lizardmen with punny names like Kroq-Gar and the ludicrousness of Skarr Bloodwrath, Keeper of the Blood Tally. It's like looking at the amusing goofiness of a Fanatic or Doomseeker and comparing it to a (blech) Wrathmonger. It's contrasting the grim world of perilous adventure to one where the Winds of Magic are bound inside superpowered characters. Look at some of the genuine quality writing you can find in the setting ("Aye, we've 'ad a prince! Why, we've had a dozen in just the last year! They're pop'lar in these here lands!" from Renegade Crowns, for example) as opposed to "These truly were the End Times. But they were also the beginning.", and tell me you don't see a difference.

The truly sad thing here is that somewhere, someone in the company who gets to make some very important decisions lost the feel for the setting.

If they do a reboot like I theorized(a new world is formed out of the chaos and survivors of every race get a new start in this new world) it won't be so bad.

 RunicFIN wrote:
So yeah, for years people have been wanting the game to get renewed, and the story to move forward. Decades even. It is now being done, and again people are unhappy?

Not sure if this is the case here, but people clamoring for change on the internet often are a vocal minority. If you're happy, there's little incentive to go crusading on forums on how the status quo is bad or why/how/when things should change.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
2) And yet more others are turned off by rumours that, I suspect, are being completely misinterpreted and blown out of proportion. They're basically assuming that GW is tossing out WHFB, its fluff, and its armies in their entirety and introducing an ENTIRELY new game built from scratch.



Quite frankly I think that's ludicrous, and I highly doubt it's what we'll see happen. There is ample room to interpret these rumours in a way that fundamentally alters the fluff, and perhaps the business structure, in a way that doesn't really change the effective game or play experience.


Which is 100% alright with me. I'd be GLAD for a system where I get more models for my primary models than once every 5-10 years. Where I can start a new army a unit at a time by incorporating them into an existing force, rather than having to build an ENTIRE NEW ARMY from fething scratch just to play with it. I mean hell...the only reason I started VC is because I figured I could recycle a whole whack of my TK models.

I couldn't agree more.

Just gonna say that people wanting to advance the story forward and people complaining the story got moved forward are likely not the same people.

I was quite happy with my fluff being a background setting and nothing more.

At this point I only hope Empire models will continue to be available to buy and will be useable in w/e form warhammer becomes as my local is a GW.

 RunicFIN wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
2) And yet more others are turned off by rumours that, I suspect, are being completely misinterpreted and blown out of proportion. They're basically assuming that GW is tossing out WHFB, its fluff, and its armies in their entirety and introducing an ENTIRELY new game built from scratch.



Quite frankly I think that's ludicrous, and I highly doubt it's what we'll see happen. There is ample room to interpret these rumours in a way that fundamentally alters the fluff, and perhaps the business structure, in a way that doesn't really change the effective game or play experience.


Which is 100% alright with me. I'd be GLAD for a system where I get more models for my primary models than once every 5-10 years. Where I can start a new army a unit at a time by incorporating them into an existing force, rather than having to build an ENTIRE NEW ARMY from fething scratch just to play with it. I mean hell...the only reason I started VC is because I figured I could recycle a whole whack of my TK models.

I couldn't agree more.

In recent history (i.e. since they made the decision to go ahead with the End Times, which has obviously been in the work for years now), they've farmed their IP out to Warhammer Tactics, Warhammer: Total War, Blood Bowl 2, and Vermintide. All of these are coming down around when the new edition of warhammer will be out.

So now we have a question to ask: is this them giving the dead horse a last few kicks, or is it a conscious and concerted effort to revitalize a brand that's been bleeding out marketshare in the "fantasy wargaming" arena.

I 100% believe that everyone who is jumping into the former camp will be choking on humble pie come 9th edition. It's fething ludicrous to think that a publicly traded company would do that to a major product line, after spending all this money on the ET cycle.

Will the new world be a part of the Imperium? Copy Warmachine/Hordes compatibility.

The fluff has been shifting and changing for years - some of it I liked - especially the BL novels - some of the Army Book stuff, much less so.

I think the End Times is both interesting and well done and if they have actually gone and destroyed everything - well thats pretty gutsy.

I don't know if I will like the new world as much as I did and still do love the Warhammer world - only time will tell.......but will ing to give it a chance

Re the Rules - again interested to see what they do but I have loads of systems to play with

Keep in mind that this is a group of individual people. Thus some wanted change while others did not.

Having said that. WHFB absolutely needed to change. 8ed has been a sinking ship with abysmal sales and desperately needed a major rework in most categories;
1) to make the IP "pop" WHFB is incredibly generic when compared to almost any other fantasy game. The most "original" thing they had was their ties to WH40K and the skaven...that just isn't enough to make people buy product. Take a random selection of 100 WHFB images or fluff and very few WHFB players will be able to tell the difference between WHFB and any other generic fantasy setting. Do the same with WH40K and you will find that even people who have never played the miniature game can tell the difference.
2) A major shift in the rules as the game became too high cost to get into. The game largely devolved into large static blocks of infantry with max warmachines and mages threw all their dice into getting a single big spell of and dying (not before using their scroll to dispel the enemies attempt though!). You shoot the monsters dead turns 1-2 and then grind two units together until one breaks turns 4-5. Who ever broke the others big block usually won. This meant that instead of buying 1 big centerpiece model, some chaff units, and a selection of infantry, cavalry, and warmachines. You buy 100+ infantry models, 2-4 warmachines, 1 Lv4 mage, and 2-3 units of chaff. The problem being that 100+ infantry is way more expensive in both time to assemble and paint and money to buy than a mix of monsters, infantry, and cavalry. The end times already helped to change this with more points being in heroes and lords. Also the new combined profiles makes monster mounts somewhat worthwhile.
3) the rules also had to change as for many people it was too boring to stay in the game. For 4 years this game was practically unchanged and you could have written a simple algorithm to control your army. They essentially removed strategy from the magic phase (throw all the dice at the ultimate spell). The movement phase decreased in importance with steadfast not being broken by small, fast, elite units charging the rear or flanks. etc.

Sorry for the long winded ramble. In summary GW was smart to burn the game down to it's roots and regrow it. They had such a small purchasing community left that if they messed up a complete reboot wouldn't have been a big difference. As it turns out the end times has been a pretty big hit in terms of sales and reinvigorating the brand.

If they retcon this End Times gak, I'll probably come back.(See the Archaon leaks I posted in the other thread.)

But until then, I'm done with GW.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
2) And yet more others are turned off by rumours that, I suspect, are being completely misinterpreted and blown out of proportion. They're basically assuming that GW is tossing out WHFB, its fluff, and its armies in their entirety and introducing an ENTIRELY new game built from scratch.



Quite frankly I think that's ludicrous, and I highly doubt it's what we'll see happen. There is ample room to interpret these rumours in a way that fundamentally alters the fluff, and perhaps the business structure, in a way that doesn't really change the effective game or play experience.


Which is 100% alright with me. I'd be GLAD for a system where I get more models for my primary models than once every 5-10 years. Where I can start a new army a unit at a time by incorporating them into an existing force, rather than having to build an ENTIRE NEW ARMY from fething scratch just to play with it. I mean hell...the only reason I started VC is because I figured I could recycle a whole whack of my TK models.

I couldn't agree more.

In recent history (i.e. since they made the decision to go ahead with the End Times, which has obviously been in the work for years now), they've farmed their IP out to Warhammer Tactics, Warhammer: Total War, Blood Bowl 2, and Vermintide. All of these are coming down around when the new edition of warhammer will be out.

So now we have a question to ask: is this them giving the dead horse a last few kicks, or is it a conscious and concerted effort to revitalize a brand that's been bleeding out marketshare in the "fantasy wargaming" arena.

I 100% believe that everyone who is jumping into the former camp will be choking on humble pie come 9th edition. It's fething ludicrous to think that a publicly traded company would do that to a major product line, after spending all this money on the ET cycle.

I would point out that the games you specifically mention either don't exist (Warhammer Tactics), were in relation to licences sold years ago(Warhammer: Total War, Blood Bowl 2) leaving one new game that actually has the subtitle of End Times (Vermintide) and we saw how that turned out for all those big expensive models that were valid for one campaign (Except the Bloodthurster obviously) .
Also the companies that are making those games, like us customers have all ready given GW there money and so no longer matter a flying feth to GW. It's there poor fortune to be selling a game for a dead IP, well except Bloodbowl who knew what they were getting into.

As to your other point "So now we have a question to ask: is this them giving the dead horse a last few kicks, or is it a conscious and concerted effort to revitalize a brand that's been bleeding out marketshare in the "fantasy wargaming" arena" I am pretty sure it's both GW will flog a horse until it's lasagna let alone dead, also there is no doubt they want a new game that will make them more money than whfb but they have decided not to revitalize the brand as much as nuke it from orbit and start again.

Due to GW's bizarre view of their customer's, especially repeat customer's who last longer than a year and who actually play the games instead of just buying boxes for the privilege of looking at them with jewel like wonder. They may actually consider shedding existing customers and veterans as a benefit of killing Warhammer. They can instead 1.release new game 2. Magically recruit Customers 3.Profit or more likely they release a much cheaper to make and sustain new game and hope for the best.

I also predict I will have one poster dispute this for "Reasons" and another point out that getting rid of vet's is good because it's there fault for Warhammer dying for not buying 8th edition.

Maybe they will split it into two games. "Warhammer Classic" consisting of rules, armies, world, etc. from before ET and some new skirmish-steam-punk game set between fantasy and 40k. Models could be used for either, the only difference being which base you use (like Daemons of Chaos).

They could fill in more tales from the old world and even add new elements that will carry over to the new post ET game.

Wasn't the "skirmish" part of the next edition rumoured to be a game mode? Would certainly make for a easier entry-level game for new players and also answer the needs of people who think the game has been blown out of scale ( too large. ) It sounds pretty sensible, clever even, but unfortunately knowing GW it might not be a reality.

SeanDrake FTW. Of course, Sigvatr isn't bad either.

Sigvatr wrote:People wanting the story to move forward were asking for a fun trip via car across vast landscapes.

GW decided to "move forward" by driving into the nearest tree at full speed.

This! If someone complains to you that their puppy still chews the furniture and hasn't 'progressed', don't be surprised at their reaction if you beat it's head in with a stick and throw them a new one.

ansacs wrote:
1) to make the IP "pop" WHFB is incredibly generic when compared to almost any other fantasy game. The most "original" thing they had was their ties to WH40K and the skaven...that just isn't enough to make people buy product. Take a random selection of 100 WHFB images or fluff and very few WHFB players will be able to tell the difference between WHFB and any other generic fantasy setting. Do the same with WH40K and you will find that even people who have never played the miniature game can tell the difference.

I'm not sure generic fantasy (or an edition that is *gasp* more than three years old) is quite such a problem as the second reason you mentioned. GW's problem was they tried to sell generic(ish) fantasy in the form of overpriced models and atrocious rules.
Makes me think about the announcement of Anima Tactics' demise, as something vaguely similar. It was discussed on another forum I go to - the reactions were largely along the lines of 'ah pity, though I never bought very much because the minis were boring.' (note 'boring' =/= 'generic' )

UNBOUND FTW!!!!!!!!

I was one of those asking for story moving forward, and I'm quite pleased with how things were.

 Spinner wrote:
I think what people who said they wanted to move forward was more like 'exploring various "here be dragons" areas on the vast, interesting map, and changing something every now and then while keeping the feel of the setting' and less 'Skaven blow up the moon and everything is destroyed, thanks for playing!'

It's the difference between Lizardmen with punny names like Kroq-Gar and the ludicrousness of Skarr Bloodwrath, Keeper of the Blood Tally. It's like looking at the amusing goofiness of a Fanatic or Doomseeker and comparing it to a (blech) Wrathmonger. It's contrasting the grim world of perilous adventure to one where the Winds of Magic are bound inside superpowered characters. Look at some of the genuine quality writing you can find in the setting ("Aye, we've 'ad a prince! Why, we've had a dozen in just the last year! They're pop'lar in these here lands!" from Renegade Crowns, for example) as opposed to "These truly were the End Times. But they were also the beginning.", and tell me you don't see a difference.

The truly sad thing here is that somewhere, someone in the company who gets to make some very important decisions lost the feel for the setting.

So much. So, so much. Whenever I look at Warhammer now, fantasy or 40k, I go "but where's the fun gone?" There's nothing wrong with fun. You can be grimdark AND goofy and fun.

I wanted to see the story advance.

"Nuke everything and everyone dies" does not advance the story, it ENDS the story.

Slight difference, there.

If I handed my editor a sequel that destroyed what was in the first book, she'd slap me and tell me to start over. There's a difference between progressing a story and destroying it.

 Firebreak wrote:


So much. So, so much. Whenever I look at Warhammer now, fantasy or 40k, I go "but where's the fun gone?" There's nothing wrong with fun. You can be grimdark AND goofy and fun.

I.e. Goblins. They appear to be a fun breed, but are incredibly cruel and ruthless, enjoying torturing their opponents to no end.

Opponents, allies, small fluffy animals......

The Doom Diver was always amusing.

 MWHistorian wrote:
If I handed my editor a sequel that destroyed what was in the first book, she'd slap me and tell me to start over. There's a difference between progressing a story and destroying it.

I, for one, enjoys J.R.R. Martin and his ruthless killing of beloved characters; it's fun. Do kill all of them off, I've given up seeing dragons anyhow.

If an editor slapped an author for killing off all that the author had constructed in his series, the editor should be fired. It's her job to make sure the sentences make sense, not forging the way the stories are going.

Regardless, I enjoy the current fluff for Warhammer: End Times. I always couldn't decide whether do I want to get into WHFB, besides, I see no point in investing in three army books (Beastmen, Warriors of Chaos, and Chaos Daemons) to have a good, fluffy chaos army. The End Times gave all the old stuffs back to you, the Chaos Hosts and the Undead Legions, you've lost nothing. Unless of course if you are the Lizardmen, in which case there is a non-miniscule chance of being "squatted", as it were.

Concerning Dwarves -- I've seen some on this sub forum expressing concerns that the only dwarfs left would be Slayers, but why? Because if a race is shattered they will all go mad? (OK, maybe some Jews from Jerusalem did, but I'd imagine the majority remained sane else they'd have fared far, far worse) apparently that's not how Slayers work, still, not all dwarves need to become slayers; their strongholds fell, but they did not break their oath or anything. Refugees will flood the Empire, and there will be Gryocopters in the Empire, also Dwarven siege engines (which the Umies already have some anyways), infantrymen and slayers. All the dwarven infantry stats can literally fit on one page (if there is going to be a "Army of Light" army book), each with different wargear and rules like how Fantasy always handled troop entries. The worse(best?) scenario I can see is GW make Dwarf infantry into a single box with bits for both two-handed and one-handed & shield bits, and you would likely have to buy multiple boxes to make a full regiment of longbeards or whatever the dwarfs got, which you'd have to do for multiple regiment anyhow; the best(worse) scenario I can see is GW do nothing and keep their current plastic range, and all that's changed is that an "Army of Light" player will have a higher incentive to buy empire/bretonnia models now.

All in all, I don't see anything bad. Again, apart from the Lizardmen, which might prove to suck. But for the rest of the WHFB range things will not be worse.

 lcmiracle wrote:
=

If an editor slapped an author for killing off all that the author had constructed in his series, the editor should be fired. It's her job to make sure the sentences make sense, not forging the way the stories are going.

Just FYI, there are two kinds of editors, copy editors which deal with grammar and spelling and whatnot. Then there's content editors which deal exactly with story, plot, pacing, characterization.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
=

If an editor slapped an author for killing off all that the author had constructed in his series, the editor should be fired. It's her job to make sure the sentences make sense, not forging the way the stories are going.

Just FYI, there are two kinds of editors, copy editors which deal with grammar and spelling and whatnot. Then there's content editors which deal exactly with story, plot, pacing, characterization.

Nah, never heard of it; an author can be commissioned to write some stuff, with multiple authors can be commissioned to write a same novel or script, but no editors edit the contents of an author's work without executive meddling. In the case of news article businesses, an article can get cut out the "inaccuracies" by the chief editor. It'd be an entirely different situation if an author takes up from, or is called in to finish off, where a previous author had left off, not unlike the case of The Silmarillion.

Also, yes they did destroy everything that had been constructed, much like the way Star Wars, eh, V, got back from the Rebel's Triumphant in A New Hope and got into another muddy situation, just so in VI the Rebels can (unsurprisingly) get back to the big guys. But what come afterwards is not necessarily a incoherent mess. Knowing GW, they'll rehash a bunch of old fluff, and add the word "refugee" amidst the sentences and call it a day. If the End Times sticks, you'll see loads of units cramped into a handful of entries, and some completely removed. And maybe after a while, old metal miniatures will become permanently out-of-stock, nothing the WHFB nor the WH40K players haven't seen before.

... ok, let's see... yeah, the point is, WHFB has never been in a plot stasis, things have been moving forward, and they have built up all these prophecies and omens and whatnot that has to be resolved. With the (perhaps) exception of the Lizardmen, the background aesthetics will remain the same (what? Vamp and Mummies, ok never seen that before...), and all that we are looking at is a huge change to the landscape, not the essence. Again, I'm not convinced that the Lizardmen will be gone, and the Bubblehammer thing is pretty much just a case of the fandom hobbyists overreacting to one new fluff.