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and it's called the Necron Ghost Ark.

Anybody else agree? It's ridiculously good. Let's see here:

- Just over 100 points so not overcosted at all.

- AV 13 front and side quantum shielding

- 4 HP instead of 3 which is odd for a DT

- otherwise 11/11/10 open-topped which isnt even that bad for a DT

- especially when you consider that it means all 10 Necron Warriors aboard can fire (and rapid-fire, if within range) at a target of their choice (also other than what the Ghost Ark shoots at) without having to disembark

- repairs D3 Necron Warriors nearby

- has all the benefits of a skimmer

- Each broadaide array has the firepower of an entire 10 man unit of Necrons outside rapid-fire range

. Has no firepower compared to the Serpent. If you aren't rolling 6's, they're just Bolter shots, and statistically you might see one on each side. That's not exactly stellar.
. If you want to repair stuff, you have to slog it with a larger squad to get the most benefit from it.

The Ark is good because you can make it fulfill a specific role, but the Serpent already performs multiple roles anyway.

I mean, what are we comparing here? Wave Serpent vs. Ghost ark directly? Because I'll make some arguments here, if you'd like.

Ghost Ark's selling point is that it is open-topped and 13 armor. It's downside is that it's open topped and only 13 armor until you pen it. So, get a pen, it becomes a skimmer Rhino, and thats if you didn't explode it with the pen anyway (Anything that can pen it will typically be AP 1-2). It also has a 24" range, and is not a fast skimmer.

Wave Serpents (I feel I shouldn't say more, but I will) have a 60" gun that still glances a ghost ark on 6s, which is what Gauss does to a Wave Serpent, except that a Serpent has a 3+ cover save, and I can only shoot if my slow skimmer is within 24". A Ghost ark sits there with no cover save against your effective Gauss. I've also almost never seen a Wave Serpent Explode, so only being 12 armor, they're typically more resilient. Serpent Shield aside, you have either 6 S6 rending shots at 24" (Which you can fire both after moving 12"), or 3 rending shots and 4 36" S6 shots that twin links everything else on the vehicle (For a measly 5 points).

Shall we continue this argument?

I think the WS is still worse for a few reasons:

- It's fast.

- It's weapons can penetrate light vehicles, rather than only being able to glance them.

- Its weapons are more effective against MCs.

- Its shield ignores cover, which is an incredibly powerful ability on a 4.5 shot (on average) S7 weapon - let alone one on a dedicated transport.

- It can TL all its weapons.

- It can bring all its weapons to bear against the same target.


That being said, the Ghost Ark is absolutely ridiculous. The fact that it was given double the shots at 24", no longer damages itself when it repairs Necrons *and* got a point decrease is just ludicrous.

The 60" range makes a big difference. For all the reasons vipoid states, I would pick WS too.

The Valkyrie is the only DT that comes close to being as silly as the Wave Serpent, and it's only a DT in a Forge World army list.

I completely misinterpreted what the title said. I thought you meant the WS was the worst DT in the game...

the Mechanicum Taghmata 'Triaros' might be in the running too.

-It's far easier to catch a ghost ark in assault, due to its range and its lack of fast (that 6" on turbo boost makes a big difference).
-It may not be shooting until turn 2 due to its range or will likely be snapshotting those shots as it can't move more than 6" and retain accuracy.
-It has 10 gauss shots which are basically boltgun shots against anything that is not a vehicle or wraithlord/knight (2 hurricane bolters put out 12 of these and twinlinked and that's not considered good enough at 30pts to get on most peoples stormravens - and that's afar more mobile platform)
-10 st4 ap5 gauss vs 3 st6 ap4 tl shuriken, 4 st6 ap4 scatter and d6+1 st7 tl ignores cover. All at greater range.
-4+ jink compared to 3+ jink and doesn't have a good chance to be twinlinking its snapshots like a serpent if it does.
-No option of a 2+ ignores pens.
-Can only take necron warriors and ICs (which can't fit in it). Compared to the option of melta squads, d-scythe squads etc.

I've been comparing it to a 145pt WS (the usual one seen). All the above is worth far more than 40pts imo.

The ghost ark was the same in the previous dex - it never got complaints before.

 SirDonlad wrote:
the Mechanicum Taghmata 'Triaros' might be in the running too.

is this from 30k or a new rumored 40k unit?

The same reasons posted above, the WS is better. The Ghost Ark is still a really good DT, but nowhere near the silliness of a WS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:


I've been comparing it to a 145pt WS (the usual one seen). All the above is worth far more than 40pts imo.

The ghost ark was the same in the previous dex - it never got complaints before.

I wouldn't go that far. It's an annoying DT for sure, but not unkillable/super spammable.

The Ghost Ark is pretty ridiculous, and would probably be complained about more if the Wave Serpent wasn't as bad as it is, and may yet be complained about more. It's absurdly resilient, has an extra HP over almost every other vehicle in the game...just because, and can put some pretty solid hurt onto two different units.

That said, the Wave Serpent is able to focus a greater amount of firepower onto a single target and at much longer ranges, and with much greater speed and can be taken by a much wider array of units (and thus spammed much more effectively). It's still the bigger problem unit.

However, one is forced to think why on earth GW thought the Ghost Ark needed to be not only cheaper but shootier than it already was, much like why they thought Wraiths needed to be even faster and more resilient than they already were.

Honestly GW probably buffed the GA a tiny bit because no one was using them... and probably didn't realise that they weren't being used because of the NS.

The GA is a very good transport... however in no way is it better than the WS as it is only good at 2 jobs: surviving and helping warriors survive.

In an army that is already survivable and in a meta where movement and killyness is generally better over survivability (and the WS has both + survivability) the GA isn't nuts comparatively (and even then isn't really terribly insane when compared to Rhinos, considering it costs 70 pts more, though +80 or even +90 is probably more fair)

Ah well, the GA is a good transport but far from broken.

 jreilly89 wrote:
The same reasons posted above, the WS is better. The Ghost Ark is still a really good DT, but nowhere near the silliness of a WS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:


I've been comparing it to a 145pt WS (the usual one seen). All the above is worth far more than 40pts imo.

The ghost ark was the same in the previous dex - it never got complaints before.

I wouldn't go that far. It's an annoying DT for sure, but not unkillable/super spammable.

Im saying the GA is not under priced but the WS is. If you are saying the WS is not unkillable you are correct. Neither is a Titan. And yes WS are super spammable - that is the problem with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, A problem with them, not THE.

BrianDavion wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:
the Mechanicum Taghmata 'Triaros' might be in the running too.

is this from 30k or a new rumored 40k unit?

It's 30k.

So it's 135pts base with BS 4 AV 14/12/12 4hp with galvanic traction drive, twin linked mauler bolt cannon, two independent firing volkite sentinels, flare sheild, searchlight and the shock ram which makes it's front armour AV15 when ramming deals out d6 S6 AP5 hits and a free haywire roll. the shock ram isn't a weapon so cant be destroyed.
It can take extra armour, 2x HK's, smoke launchers and blessed autosimulacra - fully tooled comes to 170pts and can transport 20 and has to re-roll failed dangerous terrain tests.

 SirDonlad wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:
the Mechanicum Taghmata 'Triaros' might be in the running too.

is this from 30k or a new rumored 40k unit?

It's 30k.

So it's 135pts base with BS 4 AV 14/12/12 4hp with galvanic traction drive, twin linked mauler bolt cannon, two independent firing volkite sentinels, flare sheild, searchlight and the shock ram which makes it's front armour AV15 when ramming deals out d6 S6 AP5 hits and a free haywire roll. the shock ram isn't a weapon so cant be destroyed.
It can take extra armour, 2x HK's, smoke launchers and blessed autosimulacra - fully tooled comes to 170pts and can transport 20 and has to re-roll failed dangerous terrain tests.

In my experience, however, the Triaros isn't spectacular (though by no means is it bad).

It's durable, yes, but the firepower is abysmal for its points, and, lacking assault vehicle means it's not good for carrying assault units, while lacking firepoints means it's not good at carrying shooting units. So it's only redeeming quality is its durability. The ram, while gimmicky, is not terribly good.

Yeah, the Triaros, while extremely durable (and cool looking), is not exactly at the pinnacle of offensive mightiness. Especially when you realize that, in the Mechanicum army, you're either using it to carry a cheap unit (Tech Thralls, totally not scary to anyone) or a very expensive unit (anything other than Tech Thralls). So, with no firepoints or the Assault rule, the Triaros is usually best used to protect a squad of Tech Thralls so they can grab an objective late game. Everything else is usually better off outside the Triaros so they can shoot stuff.

Of course, I still want one for my Mechanicum army because it looks cool.

Poly Ranger wrote:
snip

What you don't take into consideration is the additional firepower coming from a full squad of Necron Warriors inside the Ghost Ark. Yeah, the Wave Serpent's firepower is better than a single broadside of gauss flayers from the Ark, but the Wave Serpent's payload cannot fire as long as it's inside while the Warriors can, so the Ghost Ark has more firepower. And because all of it is gauss, they can put 2.22 HPs damage (outside rapid-fire range, otherwise even more damage) on any vehicle regardless of AV, while a Wave Serpent firing its TL-Scatter laser, TL-Serpent Shield and snapfiring its's TL-Shuriken Cannon does about 1.75 HPs on AV12 at 24" range, 1.6HPs at 36" and 0.88HPs at 60"

 Sir Arun wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
snip

What you don't take into consideration is the additional firepower coming from a full squad of Necron Warriors inside the Ghost Ark. Yeah, the Wave Serpent's firepower is better than a single broadside of gauss flayers from the Ark, but the Wave Serpent's payload cannot fire as long as it's inside while the Warriors can, so the Ghost Ark has more firepower. And because all of it is gauss, they can put 2.22 HPs damage (outside rapid-fire range, otherwise even more damage) on any vehicle regardless of AV, while a Wave Serpent firing its TL-Scatter laser, TL-Serpent Shield and snapfiring its's TL-Shuriken Cannon does about 1.75 HPs on AV12 at 24" range, 1.6HPs at 36" and 0.88HPs at 60"

Which, against infantry, are the same as bolt guns. And can kill vehicles, at 24", which makes up for our lack of plasma/melta/ext.

The Ghost Ark is definitely a great transport, but being open topped is a double edged sword. Sure the warriors within can fire away with their better-than-bolter guns, but whenever it gets penetrated, it'll probably end badly.

Sure, the GA is resilient and has the potential for quite a bit of shots and adds to the resiliency of Necron warriors, but it is slow, and all its shots are at S4 AP5 and limited to 24".

The WS may not have the number of shots that the GA has, nor AV13, but it has superior mobility, superior range, stronger guns, and against weapons that don't benefit from Ignores Cover, is much more durable. Not to mention Serpent Shield shenanigans.

 King Pariah wrote:
The Ghost Ark is definitely a great transport, but being open topped is a double edged sword. Sure the warriors within can fire away with their better-than-bolter guns, but whenever it gets penetrated, it'll probably end badly.

Whilst this is technically true, being penetrated is far less concerning when you're AV13.

I mean, when Autocannons can only glance you, it's going to take some impressive firepower to stand any reasonable chance of getting a penetrating hit. And, that's without even considering Jink.

 vipoid wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:
The Ghost Ark is definitely a great transport, but being open topped is a double edged sword. Sure the warriors within can fire away with their better-than-bolter guns, but whenever it gets penetrated, it'll probably end badly.

Whilst this is technically true, being penetrated is far less concerning when you're AV13.

I mean, when Autocannons can only glance you, it's going to take some impressive firepower to stand any reasonable chance of getting a penetrating hit. And, that's without even considering Jink.

I mean, the first two games with the new codex, I used the Ghost Arks....first, an Orc Zzap gun killed it in one shot first turn. And second, a single lascannon, first one shot at the ghost ark the entire game, killed it.

So, they are very prone to expoding. At least in my experience.

While certainly possible, both scenarios have a very low average chance. A BS3 Lascannon has a 1 in 36 chance to inflict an Explodes result on a shielded, Jinking Ghost Ark.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
The same reasons posted above, the WS is better. The Ghost Ark is still a really good DT, but nowhere near the silliness of a WS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:


I've been comparing it to a 145pt WS (the usual one seen). All the above is worth far more than 40pts imo.

The ghost ark was the same in the previous dex - it never got complaints before.

I wouldn't go that far. It's an annoying DT for sure, but not unkillable/super spammable.

Im saying the GA is not under priced but the WS is. If you are saying the WS is not unkillable you are correct. Neither is a Titan. And yes WS are super spammable - that is the problem with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, A problem with them, not THE.

No I agree. I was mainly saying I think the GA got complaints before, but nowhere near the amount the WS got.

Ah I get you now.

 vipoid wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:
The Ghost Ark is definitely a great transport, but being open topped is a double edged sword. Sure the warriors within can fire away with their better-than-bolter guns, but whenever it gets penetrated, it'll probably end badly.

Whilst this is technically true, being penetrated is far less concerning when you're AV13.

I mean, when Autocannons can only glance you, it's going to take some impressive firepower to stand any reasonable chance of getting a penetrating hit. And, that's without even considering Jink.

I know it's anecdotal, but I see plenty of melta in my local meta. Yeah, I know that whatever is going to benefit from melta has to be within 6" (12 with multimelta), but melta is the favored method of armor busting.

Also, assault cannons and their rending. Annoying.

My new laser destroyers too will be loving the chance to pit themselves against quantum shielding.

Well, honestly the Ghost Ark is an abysmally poor transport for one reason and one reason only: It can only move ten warriors, and nothing else of note.

That said, just because it fails almost entirely as a transport doesn't mean it's not a phenomenally good support vehicle and one of the best choices in the codex.

If only Gun Wagons were dedicated transports...

60 pt for an opentopped av13-12-10 transport that can be squadronned.

70 pt when you add in a ram and a boarding plank (that's undercosted due to old rules).