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So, basically, there's a guy at my local GW, who thinks that ATSKNF means the same thing as Fearless. Despite my repeated attempts at showing him that they are two different rules, he remains stubborn. The worst thing is, he's actually convinced a few new players that ATSKNF and Fearless are the same thing as well. Any help dealing with it?

So he actually sees the two rules as separate entries in the actual rule book and refuses to follow it? I just wouldn't bother playing with him if he's this blatant in not following the rules.

Wait, it's a GW store? And the manager isn't at least helping clear up something this straightforward?

Haven't bothered to get him involved if that's what you're asking. It's not worth the trouble it would cause.

And what trouble would it cause, exactly?

If someone fails that badly at reading comprehension and refuses to listen to logic or reason, I would just stop playing them. If you're forced to play him in a league or tournament, make up some rules of your own.

Yup, best approach to deal with that sort of thing is: Don't.

Play other people instead.

If he wants to ignore the actual rules, just have fun with it and make up your own! Anything with furious charge now has rage and vice versa because they both involve being angry. Stubborn now also grants Adamantine Will because you stubbornly refuse to to let psychic powers influence you. Also, your whole army can swap out its guns for "obsurdium rifles" that are assault 2, ap 2, and fleshbane. Or just don't play him/find someone else to back you up on the proper interpretation. You know. If you want to be an adult about it, you bore.

I also thought it meant both
atsknf = fearless ?
If it don't then what's points of atsknf as i like it because i never need to take a moral check and never run in a fight

warsawwarriors wrote:
I also thought it meant both
atsknf = fearless ?
If it don't then what's points of atsknf as i like it because i never need to take a moral check and never run in a fight

No. Fearless doesn't need to roll for morale as in they automatically pass tests but cannot go to ground. ATSKNF passes FEAR tests, I.E. if it is a monstrous creature or something with the fear rule and they automatically regroup if they did fall back. All in all it's a great rule but they aren't even close to being the same thing. I do get why it might sound confusing though, it isn't the best wording; then again, when is it?

Think of it like this, a fearless troup is completely fearless to the point of insanity/suicide, like trying to beat up something you can't possibly hurt, or standing in front of a hail of bullets. A space marine is not suicidal, he can get pushed back but won't run away; he isn't afraid but he isn't suicidal! A dead space marine can't keep winning in the name of the emperor!

And They Shall Know No Fearless.

Just, don't play it. It sounds stupid, but really man. If he isn't learning the game, and is being hard to deal with, just ignore him. I dealt with a guy who kept insisting that if a plasma weapon rolled a 1, it exploded, not that it overheated. He also ran serpent spam/Wraith spam, so, yeah. Or another guy who kept telling me that because my snipers weren't facing his guys, I couldn't shoot them, or would have his serpents move around to get up the shield or whatever they get for moving around, so he just had them doing doughnuts. If someone isn't willing to work with you, you might want to just play other people. It's a better idea

 GearheadXII wrote:
A dead space marine can't keep winning in the name of the emperor!

You forget that even in death I can still serve!

warsawwarriors wrote:
I also thought it meant both
atsknf = fearless ?
If it don't then what's points of atsknf as i like it because i never need to take a moral check and never run in a fight

Fear checks /= morale checks

A sm may still fall back due to morale and can be pinned they just can't be swept and can't have their WS reduced to 1 by the Fear rule

natpri771 wrote:
Haven't bothered to get him involved if that's what you're asking. It's not worth the trouble it would cause.

Well, I figure the GW store manager would be seen as some form of authority (though I suppose that depends on how difficult the rules query is)...but something as simple as ATSNF versus Fearless should be something within- well- anyone's scope!

Plus I can't imagine it would be that hard to get his or her attention, seeing as the store is probably a small outlet with two primary tables (unless you're lucky enough to have an older GW store), confined enough that you can hear a whispered conversation on the other side of the room.

It's not a big deal to ask the manager...heck, he or she probably enjoys getting away from the constant salesman aspect of the job.

Or you could just go for other commenters' advice and simply not play this person since the experience doesn't sound enjoyable. And if you're not enjoying playing a fictional game with little plastic men, you should probably play against someone more enjoyable.

He's treating ATSKNF as if it were Fearless?

Just go for it. ATSKNF is outright superior to Fearless in every way, shape or form, so if he's nerfing himself out of stubborness, just roll with it.

I think I'd only be concerned over the idea that the dude is convincing other new players it's the same thing too. If it was just him I'd say ignore it and go on, but I do think you should let the manager there know so he or she can just make a ruling on the spot.

New players have enough new rules to learn in this game without someone trying to interpret for them by throwing clear cut rules out the window. That's not helpful to anyone.

GW managers can't always help with rules. The last manager of my local GW had worked at a Carmax before getting the job and had never played a single game or even built a single model. 4 months in, he still hadn't played a game or learned any rules. If someone had a rules question he would just refer them to me or another veteran. Luckily I never had someone that hard headed, if I explained the difference between fearless and ATSKNF, they accepted it and moved on with the game. GW writes some confusing and contradictory rules, but the difference between those 2 is pretty clear.

That guy sounds like a prick, and pricks don't deserve attention.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
He's treating ATSKNF as if it were Fearless?

Just go for it. ATSKNF is outright superior to Fearless in every way, shape or form, so if he's nerfing himself out of stubborness, just roll with it.

So true. If the marine opponent wants to handicap himself let him.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
He's treating ATSKNF as if it were Fearless?

Just go for it. ATSKNF is outright superior to Fearless in every way, shape or form, so if he's nerfing himself out of stubborness, just roll with it.

Really, because my Harlequins with their pinning weapons and death jesters are pretty happy that ATSKNF doesn't stop those sorts of checks.

Yes, you ignore fear and can't be swept, but your guys are still capable of fleeing and getting out of position and getting pinned to take away their overwatch.

How so maybe i miss understanding astknf but i thought they out pass any moral our pinning checks . that's how i seen it played and explain to me marines never run away our get pined

Why not just pull open BRB? It is not ambiguous at all. They have separate entries and both are very clear.

ATSKNF:
- Automatically passes FEAR and REGROUP tests.
- When it Regroups, it does not make the 3" Regroup move, but can instead move, shoot or Run and declare charges normally in that turn.
- If they are caught in Sweeping Advance, they are not destroyed but remain locked in combat instead

Fearless:
- Automatically pass PINNING, FEAR, REGROUP tests, and MORALE Checks
- Cannot Go to Ground and cannot Choose to fail Morale checks doe to Our Weapons are Useless
- If Unit has Gone to Ground and gains Fearless, GtG effects are immediately cancelled.

I understand why someone might think this being new to the game, but I I mean, seriously, how can the guy look at the two paragraphs in BRB and say "these rules are identical"?

Well said, Talys!

Friends, countrymen, gamers!

Open your rulebooks!

warsawwarriors wrote:
How so maybe i miss understanding astknf but i thought they out pass any moral our pinning checks . that's how i seen it played and explain to me marines never run away our get pined

ATSKNF have no immunity to pinning tests. They generally make saves at LD9 or better though (at worse, 8+, and often 10+), so it's not like SM lose a lot of sleep over this. Also, they don't automatically pass morale checks (though they don't fall back if they lose a morale check).

I've had space marines run off the table when their rhino blew up and enough died to force a leadership check!

"I just finished paying that Rhino off to the Mechanicum. feth this gak! We're leaving!"

natpri771 wrote:
So, basically, there's a guy at my local GW, who thinks that ATSKNF means the same thing as Fearless. Despite my repeated attempts at showing him that they are two different rules, he remains stubborn. The worst thing is, he's actually convinced a few new players that ATSKNF and Fearless are the same thing as well. Any help dealing with it?

You've shown him the rules in the book and he still ignores the distinction? Easy, never play him again, and advise everybody that games at that store of his nonsense.

Recently, I started playing again at one of our FLGS, and my first game was against somebody I didn't know. Seemed nice enough, but I later found out that his list had an extra 200 points in it and he was adding 6" of range to Psychic Shriek and Brainleech devourers. Needless to say, I will never play him again (he has a reputation of doing crap like that on a regular basis, so it wasn't a one-off oopsie). Last weekend he played one of the newer players using his tournament dakk Nid army. I didn't get to see everything he was using, but their points value was only 1150, and he had the usual MC trimmings he took against me, minus one MC, so I'm sure he was well over points. He tabled the guy and bragged about it when I asked how the game went (the newer guy is very pleasant and I played him the day before, and would gladly play him again).

So space marines can fall moral checks and pinning so there chicken then.
that really don't fit them in my opinion now i haveing second thoughts about playing marines
i view marines as never running away standing there ground till the end i guess the just as soft as my tau our guard

warsawwarriors wrote:
So space marines can fall moral checks and pinning so there chicken then.
that really don't fit them in my opinion now i haveing second thoughts about playing marines
i view marines as never running away standing there ground till the end i guess the just as soft as my tau our guard

LOL. I'm not sure if you're trolling, being sarcastic, or serious, man.

Space Marines can fail Morale (not moral I'm sure the Emperor's finest are very moral) checks, but they DON'T run away. They are immune to being destroyed in a sweeping advance (they stay locked in combat). Because, even when demoralized, they do not flee.

Pinning occurs when there are a hail of fire from unknown sources (or something like that), and you drop to the ground to avoid getting shot. When you Go to Ground you get a +1 cover save or a 6 cover save if you have no cover. That's not being chicken.. that's being halfway intelligent about getting shot at when you're not sure where the gunfire is coming from.

warsawwarriors wrote:
So space marines can fall moral checks and pinning so there chicken then.
that really don't fit them in my opinion now i haveing second thoughts about playing marines
i view marines as never running away standing there ground till the end i guess the just as soft as my tau our guard

Lol, say that when a sweeping advance wipes out a blob of 40 guardsmen.