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The units are ones that personally I see as a staple of warhammer, classics that have been in the game forever but who are just absolutely crappy or who are now overshadowed by the new fancy GW bling (think Wraithlords with Wraithknights, Terminators with Centurions) so I'm curious what you would do to add power or fun back into the basic units that just don't seem to bring the fun anymore.

My ideas:

Tactical Marines: allow them to purchase a 15pt special weapon that they may choose before they deploy (a Plasma Gun, Melta Gun, Flamer, or Heavy Bolter). Make them the "tactically flexible" squad they were always meant to be.

Imperial Guardsmen: points decrease, with a few for blobbing a platoon depending on the number of squads you blob. Make cheap expendable squads a real option.

Leman Russ Tank: four hull points. Actually, all land tanks should have four, and big heavy tanks should have five. Stop the Jink bias.

Wraithlord: if the Knight is now going to be the hulking behemoth one, the Wraithlord should be the speedier option.

I'd like to hear your opinions about: Terminators, Monoliths, Carnifexes, Genestealers, wyches, Deff Dreads, etc.

the_scotsman wrote:
The units are ones that personally I see as a staple of warhammer, classics that have been in the game forever but who are just absolutely crappy or who are now overshadowed by the new fancy GW bling (think Wraithlords with Wraithknights, Terminators with Centurions) so I'm curious what you would do to add power or fun back into the basic units that just don't seem to bring the fun anymore.

My ideas:

Tactical Marines: allow them to purchase a 15pt special weapon that they may choose before they deploy (a Plasma Gun, Melta Gun, Flamer, or Heavy Bolter). Make them the "tactically flexible" squad they were always meant to be.

Imperial Guardsmen: points decrease, with a few for blobbing a platoon depending on the number of squads you blob. Make cheap expendable squads a real option.

Leman Russ Tank: four hull points. Actually, all land tanks should have four, and big heavy tanks should have five. Stop the Jink bias.

Wraithlord: if the Knight is now going to be the hulking behemoth one, the Wraithlord should be the speedier option.

I'd like to hear your opinions about: Terminators, Monoliths, Carnifexes, Genestealers, wyches, Deff Dreads, etc.

Everything above (expect for those additions in the ()) is fine, the game just needs rebalancing with those OP units out there

Terminators: 20 points decrease, given them access to Combi-weapons, special weapons, power weapons and more heavy weapons. Let them start at three minimum.

Tactical squads should be able to take either 2 heavy weapons or 2 special weapons. Also, for 1 or 2 points per model, add a CCW to their Bolter and Bolt Pistol load outs.

How about a "classic" format where you restrict FOC selections to the older units that don't suffer from the power creep and apoc-lite aspects of current 7th edition 40k?

Dreads can be taken up to 3 in a squad, they can pick a boon thats either offense or deffense affects friendly models within 6, venerable boons are greater.

Doomrider should be in the next Daemonkin dex devoted to Slaanesh.

As a craft world Eldar player, Howling Banshees need some punch, they die too easily and they never hurt anything, and they're far too expensive - I'd say give them ignore armour again.

Deff Dreads just need to be elites. Orks have too much competition in the heavy support slot to fit in a Deff Dread. Walker lists outside of a dread mob would be more doable as you can take Kanz and Dreads. Could definitely justify dropping in a few deffdreads into my unused elite slots but it's impossible to give up things like lootas, Mek guns, battlewagons, and even flash gitz (love dat dakka).

Nobz squad need to drop down to 16 per model (same as boyz squad nob) or include eavy armor in their base stats. Eavy armor Nobz with a PK cost more than a meganob who has much better armor and a slightly better gun.

I remember some space marine rumors before the newest dex. They were saying that Dreds were going to give buffs to the units around them due to their heroic reputations and what not. I thought that would have been a really cool idea.

It'd be pretty cool to give Dreads some of the features they have in Dawn of War 2, like buffing units around them when they kill a model in CC.

It wouldn't actually make them better units at all, but it'd be cool.

RE Howling Banshees: Banshee's Wail is a shooting attack that automatically hits every enemy unit within 6''. Each unit hit must take a pinning test.

With SM squads, I feel like them gaining a benefit to standing still to "Aim better" with their boltguns or even all weapons could boost them without making them better than sternguard.

Either just a BS increase or maybe making them able to 2 shots at full range. Could also be used on Stenguard or all marines. Dont know what kind of impact that will have to them though, I feel it could be a fluffy way to make them more usefull however.

I think so many of the 'iconic but outclassed' units are really just fine, except the points cost of the whole system is out of whack.

Sub-par things don't need to get cheaper. Insanely useful things need to get more expensive. A LOT more expensive.

40K is supposed to be a universe where Space Marines (regular SM, not Centurion Squads with bells and whistles) are a fairly devastating force, which is capable of punching way above their weight, but the game includes so many special troops now with poisoned/good AP/autowound/no saves/kill-kill-kill-kill options that Power Armor (and even Terminator) marines seem roughly as threatening as guardsmen. I'm not totally opposed to all these specialists (though I do think that it is RIDICULOUS how much stuff goes through 3+ saves), but these 'specialists' aren't priced that way.

If it was a major expenditure in points to get things which were hugely effective, then people could still make lists with, say, an emphasis on Tac squads, or foot-slogging orks, or Tyranid gribblies. Instead, it's more effective for your points to buy a lot of wildly undercosted 'specialist' units, which grossly outperform the 'meat and potatoes' units, since they are so easy to take.

My Night Lords would sure appreciate warp talons that can carry grenades, or better yet, assault out of deep strike.

Monoliths got better in the new codex, and got indirectly better with the fact that footslog lists are more durable. So, the Monolith is not a bad unit. You just have to build your list around it.

A liberal application of the term "0-1" in front of a lot of units. Or even a new FOC with a 0-1 section for all the "big stuff".

7th really is just epic 40k at 28mm scale. Like was mentioned up above - a classic format just for the old stuff. I would love a split in the game - one for the current "epic/apocalypse" and one to a skirmish level like 2nd was.

Tacticals worth their weight and Rhinos that don't die like so much chaff in the wind and I'd be happy.

Tactical squads can fire their heavy, special and sergeant weapons at different targets. Nice band-aid fix for tacticals.

Terminators get +1T or 4++ and the storm bolter goes assault:3.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Tacticals worth their weight and Rhinos that don't die like so much chaff in the wind and I'd be happy.

For 35 points rhinos bloody well better die like chaff in the wind. That's insanely cheap for what they do. :[

You're trying to buff units that are allready decent - tacticals, guardsmen, russes, wraithlords. They are and should be a golden centre. Better buff stuff like possessed and nerf stuff like wraiths.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Tacticals worth their weight and Rhinos that don't die like so much chaff in the wind and I'd be happy.

For 35 points rhinos bloody well better die like chaff in the wind. That's insanely cheap for what they do. :[

What do they do? I've rarely seen them in most games and outside of small arms fire, they die to anything even remotely above S4.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Tacticals worth their weight and Rhinos that don't die like so much chaff in the wind and I'd be happy.

For 35 points rhinos bloody well better die like chaff in the wind. That's insanely cheap for what they do. :[

What do they do? I've rarely seen them in most games and outside of small arms fire, they die to anything even remotely above S4.

Basically they protect your marines whilst making them much faster. Considering the price of marines themselves, 35 points is a pretty solid investment to make them significantly faster, soak some fire, and spare the lads a few wounds.

If they survive that role and drop off their cargo? Then they're a dirt cheap and fairly fast objective camper who, if the enemy takes the time to shoot to death, has just made its points back by saving something else. They can also tank shock, for what it's worth!

Rhinos are amazing. 35 pts for av11 moving ObSec blos. That can also shoot and transport stuff when needed.

If only they could have been upgraded to be assault vehicles like tracks))

I agree that in most cases point increes for good or even "OP" units is better solution then point reduction of "normal" units.

PS: koooaei, I'm realy digging your avatar from that Tramvai magazine, love it.

Nid specific
Stealers just need assault nades,
warriors need a t boost to 5,
carnis need an extra wound and armour increase,
And shadow needs to actually do something decent.

Zerkers 2 attack profil, acces to power weapons for 2 models of the squad, if they have a rhino, for +10 pts the rhino is open topped.

Defilers have their battle canon upgraded to Str 9 or are 20 points cheaper.

fething Infernal Engine rule back on Chaos Land Raiders.

Nuke the game from orbit... only way to be sure.

More seriously the game need rebuilding to fix it.

 flukezor wrote:
With SM squads, I feel like them gaining a benefit to standing still to "Aim better" with their boltguns or even all weapons could boost them without making them better than sternguard.

Either just a BS increase or maybe making them able to 2 shots at full range. Could also be used on Stenguard or all marines. Dont know what kind of impact that will have to them though, I feel it could be a fluffy way to make them more usefull however.

Vet sarge ability, would make vet sarge upgrades useful aswell. winnin

I'd like to see Broadsides become T5 as Centurions are T5 and they're just Space Marines in silly metal costumes, yet a battlesuit which is the size of a Dreadnought is only T4.

Bikes shouldn't give +1T either and that T boost should be given to Terminators instead (as bikes are way too good!)

Dreadnoughts need more flexibility in weapon choice (take any option for either arm), and either a price drop or AV13 front armor.

Tactical Squads should have 1 special or heavy weapons per 5 marines, and the option of buying close combat weapons (e.g., just make them like grey hunters).

Assault Marines need a price cut, or chainswords need a buff (some sort of pseudo rending, or maybe a simple +1S or AP4). They would also benefit from the option of taking a hidden fist/power weapon.

Vanguards, Sternguards and Command Squads should be merged into a single Veterans unit. Give them tons of equipment options (everything that Vanguards, Sternguards or Command Squads could take). I personally think special ammo should be eliminated, but if kept it would have to be an upgrade (things like special ammo + jump packs + storm shields should be an option, albeit expensive).

Terminators need total flexibility in choosing their weapons - eliminate the distinction between tactical and assault terminators (like Deathwing). Give them access to two special and/or heavy weapons per squad and squad-wide combiweapons (like Sternguard). Storm Bolters should become Salvo 3/2 weapons (which would also benefit regular power armor dudes, but differentiate it for relentless terminators). Terminators should be able to sweep after wining close combat. Sgts shouldn't be forced to use a Power Sword.

Whirlwinds should be able to fire d3 shots if they don't move that round. The Hunter should be removed from the game - it should instead be a moderately expensive upgrade to whirlwind to add in the Hunter missile profile. The Stalker would remain a better choice (and cheaper) for dedicated AA, but SM would really benefit from having a multi-role tank that can handle flyers without being utterly useless in games without flyers.

All tanks should have the option to take overcharged engines. SM tanks are meant to be lighter and more mobile than Guard tanks, reflect this in the rules.

Land Raiders need to be merged into a single unit with ability to take custom weapon options (like the predator). Weapon options for the sponsons should be expanded somewhat - mirroring the options of the Deimos Predator or Leman Russ would be a good start. Anything you can take on the sponsons you should also be able to take on the front turret. The pintle-mounted weapon options should be expanded - mirroring the options of the Land Speeder would be a good start. Transport capacity should be standardized at something between 12 and 16.

Power Weapons and Pistols should be 5 points cheaper. The Power Sword + Plasma Pistol combo is common in the fluff, it shouldn't be so terrible on the tabletop. It would also make Power Weapons on sgts and vanguard vets are more practical option.

As a more general change, Power Weapon stats also really need to be re-jiggered to make the Power Sword and Power Lance more attractive. Power Sword should have a Parry rule, or be +1S. Power Lance should be +2S AP2 on charge, then +0S AP4 on subsequent turns.

The Armour Indomitus relic should be significantly cheaper.

Missile Launchers should have the Flakk profile by default.

Heavy Bolters should be Salvo 3/2 (or maybe 4/2).

The Salamanders CT should unlock Heavy Flamers as a heavy weapons choice. The above changes to power weapons would also make this CT more attractive, as right now the Mastercrafting is basically only used for buffing sgt combiweapons.

The Ravenguard CT should not prevent bulky units from scouting. It's weird that Raven Guard's two abilities clash with one another, and it's not as though Raven Guard are crushing the tournament scene.

The Bolter Drill should be replaced by Close Range Bolter Drill. Bolter Drill is underpowered and doesn't give the player interesting tactical choices besides "spam bolters".

White Scars should simply have Skilled Rider and Hit & Run.

Black Templars should be their own supplement. They're awkwardly shoehorned into the codex right now.

Most of the special characters need to have their prices adjusted.

Of course, a lot of stuff should be nerfed as well. The current power level of SM is quite high, but it's concentrated in a few units. Grav weapons need to be totally re-worked (especially grav cannons). Bikes are overly good for their price (IMO bikes shouldn't be relentless as a general rule. Attack Bikes can be an exception.). Beatstick characters are overly good even for their high price, and are leveraged in almost game-breaking ways to form deathstars (or to simply solo a whole army). Some of the special characters contribute to the abuse, and need to be re-worked (there's a reason so many tournaments ban Loth). Again, SM are powerful, but there are huge sections of the codex that just never see the light of day in a competitive environment.