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Went into GW store on friday, they had a Bloodthirster in their painting showcase and I told the managers that I was worried about picking up the Bloodthirster because of all the talk on the net forums about how the Bloodthirster couldn't attack anything until 2 turns after it was summoned.

They looked at me like I had 3 heads, but decided to entertain me anyway - they told me it couldn't assault the turn it came into play but it can assault the next turn no problem - but they were very helpful and grabbed the Khorne Daemonkin codex and 7th edition rules anyway to sort this out for me.

First they read the blood tithe table to double check the rules - indeed the Bloodthirster is summoned and arrives via deepstrike - no problem with that.

He double checked the deepstrike rules and stated it always counts as reserves and cannot move or assault the first turn it comes into play - no problem with that.

They stated that summoning from the blood tithe table happens at the start of the turn - but so do all other reserves and deepstrikes - no problem with that.

They read the flying monstrous creature rules - specifically deployment and changing flight modes - and this is what they said:

When the unit deploys it counts as coming from deep strike reserves and counts as being in swooping mode - this rule is because of interceptor which can be applied in this case.

It is NOT a declaration of the mode it is locked in for the entire turn!

At the start of the movement phase it can declare the flight mode it will use for the whole turn, no ifs ands or buts, they were very very sure on this and how the changing flight mode rule works - they read this and all the other rules mentioned above for like half an hour for me and stated:

"This is how I would have played it before you asked the question, and after pouring over all the rules again, this is still how it is played"

So bloodthirsters and DK rejoice! You CAN assault the next turn after it is summoned (OF COURSE they said, waiting 2 turns is just SILLY)

Thats certainly HIWPI

get ready for a backlash from YMDC RAW attitude tho. ..

From Tenets of You Make da Call:

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Games Workshop are easily spoofed and are notorious for being inconsistent and so should not be relied on.

Anyone who tells you otherwise in a game is THAT GUY for sure, you going to argue with games workshop employees who sell the product and speak for the company? go into the store and ask yourself for a ruling

I personally now no longer feel guilty playing it this way

Read the "Tenets of You Make Da Call" section before posting. Asking GW folks in stores is not a valid ruling. It's fine for their "house rules", but only an official FAQ can answer the question firmly. There have been MANY GW employees and customer service reps that have been impossibly wrong.

chaosmarauder wrote:
At the start of the movement phase it can declare the flight mode it will use for the whole turn, no ifs ands or buts, they were very very sure on this and how the changing flight mode rule works - they read this and all the other rules mentioned above for like half an hour for me and stated:

So it can Deep Strike and then move 0-24" (depending on flight mode)?
Because changing flight mode is tied to moving.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaosmarauder wrote:
Anyone who tells you otherwise in a game is THAT GUY for sure, you going to argue with games workshop employees who sell the product and speak for the company? go into the store and ask yourself for a ruling

I personally now no longer feel guilty playing it this way

Yes, I will do so any day. The store managers have no special insight into the rules.

 Ghaz wrote:
From Tenets of You Make da Call:

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Games Workshop are easily spoofed and are notorious for being inconsistent and so should not be relied on.

I know that not everyone will believe me, you will have to go into a store for yourself - but they will tell you the same thing.

rigeld2 wrote:
Because changing flight mode is tied to moving.

I have always wondered.

RaW: "At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare"

Why do you have to move to validate the statement about timing?
"When do i declare?" "At the start of its move"
Do i have to then move? Can i swap flight modes and not move?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaosmarauder wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From Tenets of You Make da Call:

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Games Workshop are easily spoofed and are notorious for being inconsistent and so should not be relied on.

I know that not everyone will believe me, you will have to go into a store for yourself - but they will tell you the same thing.

But do not post about it in YMDC.

The General Discussion part of the Forum is for this

YMDC has rules (tenets). Follow them

rigeld2 wrote:

chaosmarauder wrote:
At the start of the movement phase it can declare the flight mode it will use for the whole turn, no ifs ands or buts, they were very very sure on this and how the changing flight mode rule works - they read this and all the other rules mentioned above for like half an hour for me and stated:

So it can Deep Strike and then move 0-24" (depending on flight mode)?
Because changing flight mode is tied to moving.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaosmarauder wrote:
Anyone who tells you otherwise in a game is THAT GUY for sure, you going to argue with games workshop employees who sell the product and speak for the company? go into the store and ask yourself for a ruling

I personally now no longer feel guilty playing it this way

Yes, I will do so any day. The store managers have no special insight into the rules.

No they said that it cannot move but it can change flight mode.

At the end of the day I agree definitely that this needs an FAQ - before a tournament or friendly game with someone you don't know well, I would still definitely clarify that it is ok to play it like this with them.

For a tournament the organizers make all the house rules which would also mean how this rule would work.

But in my circle and local playing club (GW store) this is how it is played so just thought I would share that with everyone.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Do i have to then move? Can i swap flight modes and not move?

Sure - you always have the option to move zero inches (unless swooping).
But if you're not allowed to move, how can you then do something that requires being able to move?

Of course in swoop mode you are obligated to move at least 12"

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Because changing flight mode is tied to moving.

I have always wondered.

RaW: "At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare"

Why do you have to move to validate the statement about timing?
"When do i declare?" "At the start of its move"
Do i have to then move? Can i swap flight modes and not move?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaosmarauder wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From Tenets of You Make da Call:

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Games Workshop are easily spoofed and are notorious for being inconsistent and so should not be relied on.

I know that not everyone will believe me, you will have to go into a store for yourself - but they will tell you the same thing.

But do not post about it in YMDC.

The General Discussion part of the Forum is for this

YMDC has rules (tenets). Follow them

People have been arguing both ways, and I am replying based on GW employees doing exactly that - making a call based on reading the rules - consider it as they are posting through me - if you don't believe me call the games workshop store in Ottawa, Canada - not making this up.

And according to them that is exactly how it is played - you can declare a flight change and not move because you are not allowed to move after deepstrike but you ARE allowed to change flight mode still at the start of the movement phase.

chaosmarauder wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From Tenets of You Make da Call:

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Games Workshop are easily spoofed and are notorious for being inconsistent and so should not be relied on.

I know that not everyone will believe me, you will have to go into a store for yourself - but they will tell you the same thing.

No, they won't. The salespeople at Games Workshop have absolutely NO TRAINING in the rules of the games that they sell. There is no guarantee that they even play the game. All you have is one untrained salesperson's opinion based on what was most likely leading questions on your part. That's why the forum tenets say that only the current rulebooks and FAQs are official sources of information and not a salesperson who might not be there in a month.

chaosmarauder wrote:
- you can declare a flight change and not move because you are not allowed to move after deepstrike but you ARE allowed to change flight mode still at the start of the movement phase.

I believe that's what they told you. I do not believe that's what the rules say because, well, it's not.
You don't change flight modes at the start of the movement phase. You change flight modes at the beginning of the model's move.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Of course in swoop mode you are obligated to move at least 12"

lol so true, your not allowed to move but you must move

"Smithers, I said get into the plane"

haaaaaa

GW now has an official HIWSI on summoned blood thirsters.
How I Would Sell It.

Did you buy a blood thirster?
Then the GW ruling worked. Will you get a refund when you take that model to a tournament?

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
GW now has an official HIWSI on summoned blood thirsters.
How I Would Sell It.

Did you buy a blood thirster?
Then the GW ruling worked. Will you get a refund when you take that model to a tournament?

Maybe if we get a petition of 1000 people who say they will buy a bloodthirster we can get them to release an official faq!

rigeld2 wrote:

chaosmarauder wrote:
- you can declare a flight change and not move because you are not allowed to move after deepstrike but you ARE allowed to change flight mode still at the start of the movement phase.

I believe that's what they told you. I do not believe that's what the rules say because, well, it's not.
You don't change flight modes at the start of the movement phase. You change flight modes at the beginning of the model's move.

Well, if you take the first ruling that "counts as swooping" is not the declaration of its state for the whole turn then by your point you could just change flight mode when the unit runs in the shooting phase because that counts as moving.

chaosmarauder wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
YMDC has rules (tenets). Follow them

People have been arguing both ways, and I am replying based on GW employees doing exactly that - making a call based on reading the rules - consider it as they are posting through me - if you don't believe me call the games workshop store in Ottawa, Canada - not making this up.

And according to them that is exactly how it is played - you can declare a flight change and not move because you are not allowed to move after deepstrike but you ARE allowed to change flight mode still at the start of the movement phase.

And by doing so, you break the YMDC Forum Tenets.

I suggest you leave this to rest now, before a moderator of the Forum decides to take action against a User who is insisting on breaking Forum rules. Not my rules, i'd agree with you if we meet in person. But respect the rules of the Forums you decide to participate in or face consequences.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Do i have to then move? Can i swap flight modes and not move?

Sure - you always have the option to move zero inches (unless swooping).
But if you're not allowed to move, how can you then do something that requires being able to move?

I'm just not reading an explicit requirement to move in a rule giving a timing for when to declare flight mode. I would agree with some (GW) views that the act of declaring, based upon that rule, is dependant on happening only "At the start of its move", timing, even if no move is committed.
Is it the start of any move? can i switch flight modes when i "move" in the Assault phase?

When i ask "When does my FMC declare switching modes?"
"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare" answers.

When i ask "Do i have to move to declare?"
"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare" does not explicitly answer yes/no.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
GW now has an official HIWSI on summoned blood thirsters.
How I Would Sell It.

Did you buy a blood thirster?
Then the GW ruling worked. Will you get a refund when you take that model to a tournament?

Maybe if we get a petition of 1000 people who say they will buy a bloodthirster we can get them to release an official faq!

lol I didn't buy one that day but I will still buy one even if it had the stats of a cultist cause the model is so friggen awesome

On the tournament issue I would definitely check with the organizers first on how they allow it to work (after all a tournament is just a collection of house rules anyway)

I will be interested though to see how it is run in the GW tournament, throne of skulls I believe it is called? Maybe that will set a precedent.

I used to run a Games Workshop store. I didn't know how to play Fantasy or Lord of the Rings at all and wasn't very good at 40k. I've always been a painter first and only in recent years have I really become interested in the rules (although Fantasy is still a mystery). GW hired me because of my management and sales skills. You don't need to know the particulars of a rules system to sell someone some minis.

Some store employees are very knowledgeable about the rules. Others aren't. None of them can make official rulings.

The correct ruling for a store employee to make is whichever one fosters community and keeps people coming back. Local stores function on a web of house rules.

chaosmarauder wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

chaosmarauder wrote:
- you can declare a flight change and not move because you are not allowed to move after deepstrike but you ARE allowed to change flight mode still at the start of the movement phase.

I believe that's what they told you. I do not believe that's what the rules say because, well, it's not.
You don't change flight modes at the start of the movement phase. You change flight modes at the beginning of the model's move.

Well, if you take the first ruling that "counts as swooping" is not the declaration of its state for the whole turn then by your point you could just change flight mode when the unit runs in the shooting phase because that counts as moving.

Sure - if you make up rules, there's nothing stopping you from making up more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I'm just not reading an explicit requirement to move in a rule giving a timing for when to declare flight mode. I would agree with some (GW) views that the act of declaring, based upon that rule, is dependant on happening only "At the start of its move", timing, even if no move is committed.
Is it the start of any move? can i switch flight modes when i "move" in the Assault phase?

No, because you're locked into the flight mode for the rest of your turn, per the rules.

When i ask "Do i have to move to declare?"
"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare" does not explicitly answer yes/no.

When do units move? Note, not players - units.

I missed the part where you overrule the restriction that changing flight modes prevents charging

That could just be a house rule the GW said to make you buy the model. My local one recently implemented a new one where if you play with unpainted models in store (which is fine), then your opponents army gets PE on your troops.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I missed the part where you overrule the restriction that changing flight modes prevents charging

That could just be a house rule the GW said to make you buy the model. My local one recently implemented a new one where if you play with unpainted models in store (which is fine), then your opponents army gets PE on your troops.

The restriction on charging comes from the deep strike rule, KDK codex summoning rule states arrives via deep strike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My store had a rule for awhile where unpainted models got -1 leadership, fun way of encouraging painting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh I see yes if you change flight modes you cannot charge, but the idea is you charge the next turn but you change flight mode the turn you arrive by deep strike, in the movement phase.

With all due respect, that doesn't help. I was referring to changing flight modes from Swooping to Gliding. I don't see (or missed) where you overrule that restriction that says you can't charge if you change from Gliding to Swooping or vice versa

EDIT: Ninja'd by your post

 Frozocrone wrote:
With all due respect, that doesn't help. I was referring to changing flight modes from Swooping to Gliding. I don't see (or missed) where you overrule that restriction that says you can't charge if you change from Gliding to Swooping or vice versa

EDIT: Ninja'd by your post

Sorry!

WOW this thread again? I'm pretty sure there is already a thread for debating these rules, can we just wait and see if they clarify this in an FAQ, it would have to be FAQ'd from the main rulebook as this affects other armies

although i'd be happy to see this, i doubt it will get FAQ'd

i dont know how GW decides a question is frequently asked, maybe we all just need to ring up or e-mail their support?

edit: they probably decide it the same way they decide what customers want (ie without any consultation and whatever they damn well please)

To OP - thanks for letting us know and put a rest to this one once and for all.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
To OP - thanks for letting us know and put a rest to this one once and for all.

But it dosen't. Because you can't change the flight mode more than once per turn. Since you come in on the turn, you are stuck on that flight mode.

Im glad for OP that he has his own idea how it works, and wont let no man tell him what to do, but "some guize at GW said it was totally cool" is not an official FAQ, nor how the rules work in the book. MY local GW told me that meganobz could run, because although it says slow and purposeful in the wargear section, it does not under their unit entry. And that although it says right under gifts of gork and mork no character can have more than one, under the big open chart that dosent have a restriction. Know what these things have in common? They are both GW employees taking the most positive look at a potential sale in order to get it, as well as keep the community happy. Try using your houserule at a tournament. See how many people laugh, then call over a judge and overrule you.