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 Gamgee wrote:
I'll probably just throw my deathwatch away or give them to someone. Learned my lesson about giving GW that dirty marine money.

I was just about to start working on them too. Was starting to glue them and get ready for painting. Now all of those rpg adventures of being elite feel like a letdown. A make sure to buy your ovaltine lesson for sure. I'm never touching another marine model if I don't have to.

If you want to give them away I will be glad to take them, I'll even pay for the shipping

Thankfully it was only a kill team, librarian, and corvus. Dunno who I'll give it to irl. Your out of luck Ragnar.

I'm really worried about my Wyches this edition. I was really hoping they'd have a role to play in a DE army this time around. I know they weren't favoured in 7th but I still ran them and to be honest I had pretty decent success with them but I mostly ran them as a tarpit unit. That 4++ in CC really locked down elite opponents with few attacks. Now that everyone can choose to exit combat I started to fear for their viability as they can't even tarpit anymore but after seeing the Tau rules for getting to shoot after fleeing I'm really wondering how they'll be able to compete.

Fingers crossed that GW and the playtesters have found fun and unique ways to make Wyches a viable choice but I'll admit this is the first time I've been worried about the balance of 8th (not 8th as a whole, just 8th in regards to my favourite unit), just gotta be patient and see what it's like when it launches now I suppose.

 Gamgee wrote:
I'll probably just throw my deathwatch away or give them to someone. Learned my lesson about giving GW that dirty marine money.

I was just about to start working on them too. Was starting to glue them and get ready for painting. Now all of those rpg adventures of being elite feel like a letdown. A make sure to buy your ovaltine lesson for sure. I'm never touching another marine model if I don't have to.

Haha oh wait, you're serious.. Bender meme then.

You do know, that deathwatch weren't the most elite marines anyway, right? There are also custodes. And all flavores of elite veterans from every chapter, like lone wolves, deathwatch, grey Knights, singuinus guard, ect...

Anyway, if you let a release of miniatures spoil you're entire hobby project (which is unwise), and there is no way of avoiding the haunting feeling, that somewhere in a a different game (assuming, that you play the RPG), might be mk X, think of them as of just stronger dudes. You don't have to have better stats to be elite, IMHO, deathwatch have more experience and are all unique (mkX is a new working horse).

Deathwatch weren't ever more elite anyway were they? They're just marines on loan from different chapters, with a more specialised role.

T'au lodning JSJ on their suits is, assuming it's true, a start, but with the loss of extra attacks on the charge you might not have enough oomph in one assault phase to do much damage, at which point the suits will jump away and start the whole thing again. This seems to promote units like TH/SS Terminators that pack a ferocious alpha punch (assuming they still do).

They've spoken a lot about how "brutal" CC will be, but losing the extra attack on the charge lowers alpha potential at the same time that falling back makes alpha striking in melee even more important. Still, being able to reach combat and getting to swing before the rest of the enemy army opens fire on you again is better than not getting into CC at all.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Deathwatch weren't ever more elite anyway were they? They're just marines on loan from different chapters, with a more specialised role.

They are more elite. They're basic troops are the elites of other chapters. They were allowed to have more advanced and even use new technology or captured xenos tech. Now all of that unique aspect is gone. Probably going to even be replaced by numarines eventually with even more advanced stuff then current ones. They do have more experience for now, but I doubt the subtlety of GW's marketing nu-marines is going to let that show through the day. At the end of the day they want to sell models and they want to see players making nu-marine armies. I'm just ripping off the band-aid now. Eventually after a long enough time it wouldn't surprise me if in lore normal marines start going obsolete and extinct. I mean why waste resources replacing them when you can have the latest thing?

Whatever dude, you're being a bit of a drama queen, IMHO
Besides this doesn't make sense, because numarines army is not structured that way, they are not made up from vets and they don't have all that access to Xenos weapons. And in no way they're shown as the ones, seeking to be as distinct as possible from each other:
"They're basic troops are the elites of other chapters. They were allowed to have more advanced and even use new technology or captured xenos tech. Now all of that unique aspect is gone. Probably going to even be replaced by numarines eventually with even more advanced "

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

BlueGrassGamer wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Still missing the Sergeant's wargear

Spoiler:

since we saw im with a power sword and bolt pistol..

Depends on whether or not Game Workshop is keeping with the traditions and markings they they've laid down in Insignium Astartes and their own Studio armies. In the debut video for the Primaris Space Marines, there's a shot or two of what looks to be a squad or two of Space Marines. The squad looks like it's made up of four Primaris Marines and one Primaris Marine that has a red helmet, all armed with bolters. Going by Insignium Astartes and GW's current Studio armies, the red helmeted Primaris Marine should be the Sergeant. The Primaris Marine that has the white-red-white livery running down his helmet and is armed with the bolt pistol and power sword might be a character of some kind (maybe akain to the Space Marine Commander).

White line down the middle of a red helmet has traditionally been used to define a veteran sergeant over a normal sergeant.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
Whatever dude, you're being a bit of a drama queen, IMHO
Besides this doesn't make sense, because numarines army is not structured that way, they are not made up from vets and they don't have all that access to Xenos weapons. And in no way they're shown as the ones, seeking to be as distinct as possible from each other:
"They're basic troops are the elites of other chapters. They were allowed to have more advanced and even use new technology or captured xenos tech. Now all of that unique aspect is gone. Probably going to even be replaced by numarines eventually with even more advanced "

*facepalm* The chapters give their best men to the deathwatch. What happens when all the chapters are nu-marines? They give nu-marines. Since you need to support the new larger space marines that means developing or giving existing gear to the DW that fits the nu-marines and not the old. Eventually over the course of years nu-marines will replace every marine model everywhere in real life. hastings himself the one and only one of the most accurate rumor people even confirmed the old marines will not be getting any new releases or they would be extremely rare. It's over. A slow putting down the dog over. Stop being in denial and buy nu-marines or get out of the way.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Primaris are just 8E Space Marines. Keeping the old guys was a compromise and I'm personally confident that old Marines are going to slowly fade from store space in maybe a year or slightly more.

People are not going to buy old marines over new marines, even people playing old marine armies (except the stubborn few) will buy them and declare "counts as" if they want to continue old fluff.

Its pretty telling when they are only slightly different state wise, the rumors of them getting basically all the same basic unit types and that they can be in chapters or nee ones with the same flaws concepts just like old marines.

Best way to say it is that they are rebooting space marines.

They are doing a very poor job at it, to be honest.
Just saying "here, these now are extra special, so BOY DO YOU WANNA HAVE THEM! Don't mind the ones you have lovingly crafted and converted, those are crap now that these boys are around." ain't gonna cut it, and if the Marine players don't all like it (and you can tell it's not really being hyped as it was expected) it will be noticed in sales number... and GW WILL take note.

I would have bought true scale marines. I would have been fine with that, but it's their dumb as hell lore that is pissing me off. It makes all the old marines look like idiots and they exist solely to show them up now.

Old marines are about to feel how IG players feel every day.

it would have been real cool if GW made existing marine's truescale without the dumb lore. Then they could have said gulliman made new armor and weapons for all the chapters and new training regiments to increase their skill or something.

Heck you could have easily said he modified the existing marines slowly to give them superior stats and that is why it took them so long to make sure there was no errors in increasing the existing marines to even further heights.

They have been handled extremely poorly. I think this is probably the worse thing I've seen new GW do in a long time by far.

 Rippy wrote:
>T'au
It makes me cri everytime

T'au™

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Primaris are just 8E Space Marines. Keeping the old guys was a compromise and I'm personally confident that old Marines are going to slowly fade from store space in maybe a year or slightly more.

People are not going to buy old marines over new marines, even people playing old marine armies (except the stubborn few) will buy them and declare "counts as" if they want to continue old fluff.

Its pretty telling when they are only slightly different state wise, the rumors of them getting basically all the same basic unit types and that they can be in chapters or nee ones with the same flaws concepts just like old marines.

Best way to say it is that they are rebooting space marines.

They are doing a very poor job at it, to be honest.
Just saying "here, these now are extra special, so BOY DO YOU WANNA HAVE THEM! Don't mind the ones you have lovingly crafted and converted, those are crap now that these boys are around." ain't gonna cut it, and if the Marine players don't all like it (and you can tell it's not really being hyped as it was expected) it will be noticed in sales number... and GW WILL take note.

3 things sell models, in order: Rules, the actual models, fluff/nostalgia. The numarines are objectively very good models so that's one. If the rules are good, which they should be, then that's two. with 2/3 I doubt the last one will matter over much.

Also don't take online forums too seriously as far as forecasting goes. They have a heavy negative bias.

 Gamgee wrote:
I'll probably just throw my deathwatch away or give them to someone. Learned my lesson about giving GW that dirty marine money.

I was just about to start working on them too. Was starting to glue them and get ready for painting. Now all of those rpg adventures of being elite feel like a letdown. A make sure to buy your ovaltine lesson for sure. I'm never touching another marine model if I don't have to.

Nothing's changed about the miniatures you own.

But if you do throw them away, be sure to set fire to them on YouTube.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
>T'au
It makes me cri everytime

T'au™

Hahah yeah. At least with Tau Empire replacing things it makes sense. I'm prepaid for some dumb thing to happen because the Tau are always advancing. For the greater good ect. So depending on how they did an "updating" of the Tau range if they ever did it could be easily justified and everyone in the Empire would be cool with it.

Edit
Since so many people own space marines and so many will be selling off their entire armies. You watch. I can't even sell them off to people. Same thing happened at the end of warhammer fantasy. They may as well be junk.

The simplest way they could've done this is saying "Hey guys we know you guys wanted to have true scale marines so we took advantage of 8th edition and are going to introduce these news models in a new Mk X armour, the Mk. thingamagiga *insert GW styled name*. Don't worry they are just new models and we will be adding more and slowly replacing the SM boxes over the next couple of years to bring it in line with the new true scale models"

But no. That'd be too hard.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gamgee wrote:
I would have bought true scale marines. I would have been fine with that, but it's their dumb as hell lore that is pissing me off. It makes all the old marines look like idiots and they exist solely to show them up now.

Old marines are about to feel how IG players feel every day.

it would have been real cool if GW made existing marine's truescale without the dumb lore. Then they could have said gulliman made new armor and weapons for all the chapters and new training regiments to increase their skill or something.

Heck you could have easily said he modified the existing marines slowly to give them superior stats and that is why it took them so long to make sure there was no errors in increasing the existing marines to even further heights.

They have been handled extremely poorly. I think this is probably the worse thing I've seen new GW do in a long time by far.

The simplest way they could've done this is saying "Hey guys we know you guys wanted to have true scale marines so we took advantage of 8th edition and are going to introduce these news models in a new Mk X armour, the Mk. thingamagiga *insert GW styled name*. Don't worry they are just new models and we will be adding more and slowly replacing the SM boxes over the next couple of years to bring it in line with the new true scale models"

But no. That'd be too hard.

Yeap would have been simple. The best option. People would have still bought them. GW could have still said if people want to play with old marine models they are free too ect. They chose to gak on the old marines lore actively though.

 Gamgee wrote:
I would have bought true scale marines. I would have been fine with that, but it's their dumb as hell lore that is pissing me off. It makes all the old marines look like idiots and they exist solely to show them up now.

Old marines are about to feel how IG players feel every day.

it would have been real cool if GW made existing marine's truescale without the dumb lore. Then they could have said gulliman made new armor and weapons for all the chapters and new training regiments to increase their skill or something.

Heck you could have easily said he modified the existing marines slowly to give them superior stats and that is why it took them so long to make sure there was no errors in increasing the existing marines to even further heights.

They have been handled extremely poorly. I think this is probably the worse thing I've seen new GW do in a long time by far.

I play space marines and you know what I thought? 'New dreadnought? Neat.'

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
>T'au
It makes me cri everytime

T'au™

Can't wait for the Ty'ra-nid™®© faction focus

Oh the models are well made. I will give you that, but I'm not the biggest marine fan anyways (anyone here for a long time should know that). I only like them in DW and blood ravens flavors and even then they aren't my fav army.

First of all I'd like you to take note that I didn't say the Marine players wouldn't like it per se. I said that "if the Marine playerbase don't like it, then they won't buy it it will be noted on the sales."

But I'll indulge you - yes, the marines look good, no doubts about it. That's 1.

As for the crunch? There's no way we know how effectively they will be since we don't know the rest of the playing field. So that second point is moot at the moment

As for the fluff... well It'll depend on each person's... taste, or lack of.

EDIT: Grammar

 Gamgee wrote:

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
Whatever dude, you're being a bit of a drama queen, IMHO
Besides this doesn't make sense, because numarines army is not structured that way, they are not made up from vets and they don't have all that access to Xenos weapons. And in no way they're shown as the ones, seeking to be as distinct as possible from each other:
"They're basic troops are the elites of other chapters. They were allowed to have more advanced and even use new technology or captured xenos tech. Now all of that unique aspect is gone. Probably going to even be replaced by numarines eventually with even more advanced "

*facepalm* The chapters give their best men to the deathwatch. What happens when all the chapters are nu-marines? They give nu-marines. Since you need to support the new larger space marines that means developing or giving existing gear to the DW that fits the nu-marines and not the old. Eventually over the course of years nu-marines will replace every marine model everywhere in real life. hastings himself the one and only one of the most accurate rumor people even confirmed the old marines will not be getting any new releases or they would be extremely rare. It's over. A slow putting down the dog over. Stop being in denial and buy nu-marines or get out of the way.

Afaik, Gw didn't say anywhere, that old breed of marines is not manufactures anymore (in the fluff)
In real life GW still plans to support Horus Heresy at the least, and will produce regular marines for a long long time. They might not get many new toys, but do they need to really?? If the range of the old Breed will stop expanding now, personally I wouldn't be too sad: half of GW 40k range is enough.

And it's much easier to be in full control of your hobby by not caring about every "new recent fluff tidbit" or any other plot advancement. Fantasy featured characters, that had already died in the background and were on the same page in the army list section with still alive ones

Did it stop people from collecting their army the way they want? No. A lot of people still play fantasy 8th. Because they like what they like and don't bend to every word of the fluff, nor to the INTIMIDATING New toys.

And if you're worried about marine shortage on the market that will impact your ability to finish your collection, you're kidding yourself.

That's exactly my reaction. I couldn't give a damn about the numarines. I am curious as to the Dreadnought.

 Gamgee wrote:
I would have bought true scale marines. I would have been fine with that, but it's their dumb as hell lore that is pissing me off. It makes all the old marines look like idiots and they exist solely to show them up now.

Old marines are about to feel how IG players feel every day.

it would have been real cool if GW made existing marine's truescale without the dumb lore. Then they could have said gulliman made new armor and weapons for all the chapters and new training regiments to increase their skill or something.

Heck you could have easily said he modified the existing marines slowly to give them superior stats and that is why it took them so long to make sure there was no errors in increasing the existing marines to even further heights.

They have been handled extremely poorly. I think this is probably the worse thing I've seen new GW do in a long time by far.

Make up your own fluff, dude, Jeez.

And the point goes RIGHT OVER his head like a bolter round.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
Whatever dude, you're being a bit of a drama queen, IMHO
Besides this doesn't make sense, because numarines army is not structured that way, they are not made up from vets and they don't have all that access to Xenos weapons. And in no way they're shown as the ones, seeking to be as distinct as possible from each other:
"They're basic troops are the elites of other chapters. They were allowed to have more advanced and even use new technology or captured xenos tech. Now all of that unique aspect is gone. Probably going to even be replaced by numarines eventually with even more advanced "

*facepalm* The chapters give their best men to the deathwatch. What happens when all the chapters are nu-marines? They give nu-marines. Since you need to support the new larger space marines that means developing or giving existing gear to the DW that fits the nu-marines and not the old. Eventually over the course of years nu-marines will replace every marine model everywhere in real life. hastings himself the one and only one of the most accurate rumor people even confirmed the old marines will not be getting any new releases or they would be extremely rare. It's over. A slow putting down the dog over. Stop being in denial and buy nu-marines or get out of the way.

Afaik, Gw didn't say anywhere, that old breed of marines is not manufactures anymore (in the fluff)
In real life GW still plans to support Horus Heresy at the least, and will produce regular marines for a long long time. They might not get many new toys, but do they need to really?? If the range of the old Breed will stop expanding now, personally I wouldn't be too sad: half of GW 40k range is enough.

And it's much easier to be in full control of your hobby by not caring about every "new recent fluff tidbit" or any other plot advancement. Fantasy featured characters, that had already died in the background and were on the same page in the army list section with still alive ones

Did it stop people from collecting their army the way they want? No. A lot of people still play fantasy 8th. Because they like what they like and don't bend to every word of the fluff, nor to the INTIMIDATING New toys.

And if you're worried about marine shortage on the market that will impact your ability to finish your collection, you're kidding yourself.

Ah so naive. They didn't now, but they will. It;s over. The time is over for old marines. Rip off that band-aid. Your favorite chapters will still exist with nu-marines who are better in every way anyways. Or you can keep drinking the kool-aid. Either way. I don't doubt I can buy cheap old marines, it's selling them that's the problem. Also next to new armies people will start to think your old army looks dumb next to the new ones. I mean look at how irrational people are now. The fluff was so essential to me liking the Deathwatch that this new fluff has effectively killed it. I have no reason to like them anymore. Even my other deathwatch friends feel shafted from a lore perspective.

Anyways I've said all I can.

Edit
If I make my own fluff I may as well just make my own damn game and system. The base fluff has to nice and nutritious for me to do that. Not feeling it with crappy nu-marines. Everything I do would have to be based in the past with my army and that is super stupid.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
I would have bought true scale marines. I would have been fine with that, but it's their dumb as hell lore that is pissing me off. It makes all the old marines look like idiots and they exist solely to show them up now.

Old marines are about to feel how IG players feel every day.

it would have been real cool if GW made existing marine's truescale without the dumb lore. Then they could have said gulliman made new armor and weapons for all the chapters and new training regiments to increase their skill or something.

Heck you could have easily said he modified the existing marines slowly to give them superior stats and that is why it took them so long to make sure there was no errors in increasing the existing marines to even further heights.

They have been handled extremely poorly. I think this is probably the worse thing I've seen new GW do in a long time by far.

Make up your own fluff, dude, Jeez.

Funnily enough that's what we have been doing and which has luckily basically locked us out of these. With our world being already well past into next millenium with no Guillimann waking up and certian oddities in timeline anyway(I mean these gets created at the end of 41 millenia right? If so would be pretty weird they missed chaos invasion of sol system etc if they are supposed to be so great...) that fitting them into fluff would break it too much.

We ain't starting scratch our campaign for these. Not important enough.

So numarines are 100% out of our games quaranteed.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
>T'au
It makes me cri everytime

T'au™

>Just now I've heard their homeworlds name.

Nuff said.

It's all good to me. SM ranges are fleshed out to the point of new releases having to be some kind of stupid looking just so players can get a different vibe compared to the other kits. Bigger SM's were coming sooner or later - it was a fact of life. The new warp rift and the new marines make SMvsSM battles not look atleast a bit silly now as they have a real major rift in their knightly dogma. You know, the old matters of "my chapter disagrees on combat tactics or methods with your chapter" or "your chapter must be a bunch of heretics". It always bugged me how in the post 5th escalating fluff of the galaxy being full of danger SM's still found time and reasons to duke it out among themselves.
Now older SM's can royally kick the ass of the new boys with no experience. "Hey, upstart, we were here before you and kicking ass while you were being bred in your glass jar. Stop acting like you're better than us". I can have something like the begrudged and totally pissed off legions of the Horus Heresy while still being loyalist - yay!

It's probably been said many times in this thread already, but I just felt like adding my voice to the choir . Kiss my arse Imperium Secundus - there is only one Imperium