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The title says it all. Let's list some ways you can make your Eldar experiences better. Here some of my preliminary thoughts, not all of which would be used at the same time:

1) When playing against Eldar, the non-Eldar player should bring 35% more points. Example: Eldar Player brings 2000 point list, Non-Eldar Player brings 2700.
2) Non-Eldar Players are allowed to upgrade all troops in a unit to have the same weapon. Example: Unit of Plague Marines, with 5 plasma guns.
3) Non-Eldar Players ignore all mitigating rules. Example: Plasma guns have no "Gets Hot" when being used against an Eldar Army.
4) All vehicles fielded by Non-Eldar Player get an additional AV value on each side of the vehicle, and Distort weapons only cause glancing hits on 6+.
5) Non-Eldar players get 2d6 extra warp charges, and cannot suffer perils.

Make your own rules, after all, what will it matter...

I tried to start a more serious discussion over in Proposed Rules...

These aren't proposed rules, though. They are ways to deal with the issue. Rule changes would be something that you want GW to make. I have given up on that.

If you are playing against eldar units, and do not have any eldar units in your force, the following special rule is in effect:

A dark fate awaits: At the start of your shooting phase, each Eldar unit, including any in reserves, take d6 s6 ap- rending hits as Slaanesh's power lashes out at them. See the warp storm result in codex: chaos daemons for specific rules, but ignore the d6 roll to see which units get hit.

Additionally, every time you lose a unit, 10 daemonettes are summoned and deep strike with no scatter at the location of the now-destroyed unit. The Eldar player does not count as having destroyed a unit unless they also destroy the daemonettes unit that appear afterwards.
Destroyed vehicles instead become a soul grinder of Slaanesh with any one upgrade chosen.

The Eldar player is responsible for bringing these models. If no suitable model is available, the non-eldar player gains a victory point for each model the Eldar player cannot provide. If these victory points ever result in more than a 5 point lead for the non-eldar when combined with other points, the Eldar player loses the game, as Slaanesh destroys the entire Eldar force.

So "fixing the game" means ensuring Eldar can never ever win? These proposed "rules" aren't balancing the game, they're punishing Eldar players.

yawn, this is getting old

I think the simplest solution to the major problems is just to use the 6thEd rules for Jetbikes, Wraithguard and Wraithknights. That way, you get rid of the most imbalanced parts of both books (6th Serpents, 7th Jetbikes/WG/WK), including the prevalence of Strength D weapons, while the units that needed buffs but aren't OP keep them. Jetbikes and Wraithknights are still good, but not game-breakingly so.

Rule 4: Av15 Land Raiders and Monoliths.

Eh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

confoo22 wrote:
So "fixing the game" means ensuring Eldar can never ever win? These proposed "rules" aren't balancing the game, they're punishing Eldar players.

Speaking as a player of Chaos, Templars and IG, is there a difference atm?

A points handicap based upon ranking data would be interesting. Inherently unfair. But then so is the eldar codex

You obviously don't get it OP. I want self-indulgent drama on the Internet, not reasonable solutions dammit!

You obviously don't understand the finer points of 40k

I'll just use the self imposed rule, "Fun". The rule states that I must trade lists with an opponent before agreeing to a game. If the game doesn't look fun, then I must decline and find something better to do with my time.

Therefore, I don't have to come up with questionably balanced restrictions for anyone and don't have to play against cheese beards.

1) You haven't play against it yet

2) There is only 2 things you have to worry about and no one will have the money or time for, or the complete lack of sense to think it would get games.

 Ravenous D wrote:
1) You haven't play against it yet

2) There is only 2 things you have to worry about and no one will have the money or time for, or the complete lack of sense to think it would get games.

Never underestimate the power of probability calculations or the motivation of cheese beards.


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bullyboy wrote:
yawn, this is getting old

If you're not interested in this thread, why bother leaving a comment? No one really cares if a random forum goer doesn't approve of their interests.

Its simple, someone busts out 2 knights you just go "Noooooope" and walk. Or even better just don't play with super heavies and GCs and the game is fine.

 Ravenous D wrote:
1) You haven't play against it yet

2) There is only 2 things you have to worry about and no one will have the money or time for, or the complete lack of sense to think it would get games.

I was just at my flgs yesterday and someone ordered three boxes of the new jetbikes and codex. I think you under estimate people's desire to spam cheese.

BIkes and Jetbikes lose Relentless.

Now Jetbikes have to sit still to fire their Heavy Scatter Lasers. Furthermore, it tones down Grav Bikers a lot.

lustigjh wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
1) You haven't play against it yet

2) There is only 2 things you have to worry about and no one will have the money or time for, or the complete lack of sense to think it would get games.

Never underestimate the power of probability calculations or the motivation of cheese beards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bullyboy wrote:
yawn, this is getting old

If you're not interested in this thread, why bother leaving a comment? No one really cares if a random forum goer doesn't approve of their interests.

These responses are 100% correct.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
1) You haven't play against it yet

2) There is only 2 things you have to worry about and no one will have the money or time for, or the complete lack of sense to think it would get games.

I was just at my flgs yesterday and someone ordered three boxes of the new jetbikes and codex. I think you under estimate people's desire to spam cheese.

Let us not forget the people who brought 3 WS and 1 WK to a 1250 game, or people who brought 6 WS to a 1800 game. That was the reality, there will be a new one.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
1) You haven't play against it yet

2) There is only 2 things you have to worry about and no one will have the money or time for, or the complete lack of sense to think it would get games.

I was just at my flgs yesterday and someone ordered three boxes of the new jetbikes and codex. I think you under estimate people's desire to spam cheese.

And? Im buying 10. Doesn't mean they are all getting scatter lasers. Plus youre looking at 9 bikes from that guy, is 9 marine tough things that hard to kill? Last time I checked they don't last that long and I've used eldar for years. The max you'll see from rational people is 4 units of 5. They are Ld8 and run away easy unless you dump more points into them.

 Ravenous D wrote:
1) You haven't play against it yet

2) There is only 2 things you have to worry about and no one will have the money or time for, or the complete lack of sense to think it would get games.

I can do math, and I can consider the impact of mitigating and aggravating rules. I can also consider the available strategies, or lack thereof, that some armies have access to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
1) You haven't play against it yet

2) There is only 2 things you have to worry about and no one will have the money or time for, or the complete lack of sense to think it would get games.

I was just at my flgs yesterday and someone ordered three boxes of the new jetbikes and codex. I think you under estimate people's desire to spam cheese.

And? Im buying 10. Doesn't mean they are all getting scatter lasers. Plus youre looking at 9 bikes from that guy, is 9 marine tough things that hard to kill? Last time I checked they don't last that long and I've used eldar for years. The max you'll see from rational people is 4 units of 5. They are Ld8 and run away easy unless you dump more points into them.

I don't have the math with me now, but I can tell you that 40 S6 shots will take out about 8-9 MEQs, even with armor saves.

rollawaythestone wrote:
BIkes and Jetbikes lose Relentless.

Now Jetbikes have to sit still to fire their Heavy Scatter Lasers. Furthermore, it tones down Grav Bikers a lot.

I'm okay with this, as my Jetbikes can get Relentless anyway.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
1) You haven't play against it yet

2) There is only 2 things you have to worry about and no one will have the money or time for, or the complete lack of sense to think it would get games.

I was just at my flgs yesterday and someone ordered three boxes of the new jetbikes and codex. I think you under estimate people's desire to spam cheese.

And? Im buying 10. Doesn't mean they are all getting scatter lasers. Plus youre looking at 9 bikes from that guy, is 9 marine tough things that hard to kill? Last time I checked they don't last that long and I've used eldar for years. The max you'll see from rational people is 4 units of 5. They are Ld8 and run away easy unless you dump more points into them.

On top of what he already owns and might get in the future?
I've seen tables of knights and WK's. It happens and makes the game unfun for me to play. It happened before (a lot) and will happen again.
All I'm saying is that you can't just dismiss the idea of spamming the OP stuff because it does happen. More frequently than some would like to admit.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
1) You haven't play against it yet

2) There is only 2 things you have to worry about and no one will have the money or time for, or the complete lack of sense to think it would get games.

I was just at my flgs yesterday and someone ordered three boxes of the new jetbikes and codex. I think you under estimate people's desire to spam cheese.

They bought nine bikes! OH MY GERD THE CHEESE!!!!!!

Seriously though, that's nine bikes. I have more than that in my Astral Claws list. More than that in the Chaos list I'm building. Am I rolling in the cheddar too?

Quit griping, lose some games and then find the level you're comfortable playing at. Communicate with them darn evil Eldar players and we might actually be willing to tone down lists to suit the needs of your army. Don't be obnoxious about it saying 'ALL my guys should have PLASMA!!!! AND NO GET'S HOT' and you might get somewhere. This IS getting old. Be productive about it and you might get something from the game.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
1) You haven't play against it yet

2) There is only 2 things you have to worry about and no one will have the money or time for, or the complete lack of sense to think it would get games.

I was just at my flgs yesterday and someone ordered three boxes of the new jetbikes and codex. I think you under estimate people's desire to spam cheese.

They bought nine bikes! OH MY GERD THE CHEESE!!!!!!

Seriously though, that's nine bikes. I have more than that in my Astral Claws list. More than that in the Chaos list I'm building. Am I rolling in the cheddar too?

Quit griping, lose some games and then find the level you're comfortable playing at. Communicate with them darn evil Eldar players and we might actually be willing to tone down lists to suit the needs of your army. Don't be obnoxious about it saying 'ALL my guys should have PLASMA!!!! AND NO GET'S HOT' and you might get somewhere. This IS getting old. Be productive about it and you might get something from the game.

And you missed my point entirely.

Claiming cheese is Scrub mentality. Assuming the game needs fixed is also such without reasonable justification. Continuing to do something, such as attempting to fix 40k, and expecting different results is the definition of madness.

Either play the game as written or accept that it's broken and play something else. You're waiting valuable money and time otherwise, sunk cost fallacy need not apply.

The game designers [sic] have decided that Eldar should have D Strength weaponry and 12 gargantuan creatures possible in one list.

Assuming your fun is more important than someone else's fun is foolish. When you purchase rules, you're making an agreement to play by them. If the rules are vague, wishy-washy garbage then live or die by vague, wishy-washy garbage.

 TheKbob wrote:
Claiming cheese is Scrub mentality. Assuming the game needs fixed is also such without reasonable justification. Continuing to do something, such as attempting to fix 40k, and expecting different results is the definition of madness.

Either play the game as written or accept that it's broken and play something else. You're waiting valuable money and time otherwise, sunk cost fallacy need not apply.

The game designers [sic] have decided that Eldar should have D Strength weaponry and 12 gargantuan creatures possible in one list.

Assuming your fun is more important than someone else's fun is foolish. When you purchase rules, you're making an agreement to play by them. If the rules are vague, wishy-washy garbage then live or die by vague, wishy-washy garbage.

My response to all of this: No.

Why? I don't wanna.

(Sorry, dumb joke that's probably not helpful)

 Selym wrote:
Rule 4: Av15 Land Raiders and Monoliths.

Eh.

I like this, but would like to make an alternate proposal. All non-Eldar vehicles gain +3 AV to any facing that is AV 12+. This can bring the AV above 14.

 TheKbob wrote:
Claiming cheese is Scrub mentality. Assuming the game needs fixed is also such without reasonable justification. Continuing to do something, such as attempting to fix 40k, and expecting different results is the definition of madness.

Either play the game as written or accept that it's broken and play something else. You're waiting valuable money and time otherwise, sunk cost fallacy need not apply.

The game designers [sic] have decided that Eldar should have D Strength weaponry and 12 gargantuan creatures possible in one list.

Assuming your fun is more important than someone else's fun is foolish. When you purchase rules, you're making an agreement to play by them. If the rules are vague, wishy-washy garbage then live or die by vague, wishy-washy garbage.

No. Even the game designers themselves don't agree with your post, seeing as you say to play it as written, and they have said several times that they want people to just play it how they want to play it.

Plenty of people have found some measure of success in "attempting to fix 40k." While the ITC does allow some pretty powerful combos, plenty of absurd things currently can't show up on the table. Several groups make their own comp rules and report success. I don't think your post is backed by any actual facts sir.

And using the term "scrub mentality" sounds like you're just trying to fit in insults to drive away arguments and concerns to the contrary. Stop trying to bully people over the internet to not have their own opinions please.

I don't know how people don't understand this: if you gambled money on yourself in a tennis match, and then found out that your opponent got a pair of champ players (let's say they are relatives) to both play against you for him, at the same time, assuming that you're a novice at best in Tennis, would you not raise a concern about that? Especially if there was a sizable bet that you only went in on because you were both novices?

If you don't want to have your army brought down to a reasonable level to be played against by some method of handicap, then you obviously just want to get your kicks beating helpless puppies, and not actually playing a game involving any measure of skill.

(And if you try to be one of those guys who claims there's no skill in 40k, it may just be because you lack a skill level high enough to see it. There's no way I could keep a 40 win streak going with a medium tier army accompanied by many bad rolls without skillful piloting.)

 Nuln_Oil wrote:

My response to all of this: No.

Why? I don't wanna.

Childish response.

Say I bought an all X Army. Now a new book comes out and X is universally seen as unfriendly, unhappy mess. So now I have to cater to everyone else's demands to not play X while still expecting to buy new rules should I want to play more than one person.


No other major game requires comp like GW. You're actively admitting the rules are bad by saying it's necessary and thus actively admitting to spending large sums of money and/or chunks of time to correct said deficiencies.

And only because "you wanna". Sure. But your view now means someone else can't have fun,either. I'd rather play another game where I'm actually purchasing the rules of engagement versus the "kinda-pseudo framework of engagement that kinda works if you 4+ it".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:
[
No. Even the game designers themselves don't agree with your post, seeing as you say to play it as written, and they have said several times that they want people to just play it how they want to play it.

Plenty of people have found some measure of success in "attempting to fix 40k." While the ITC does allow some pretty powerful combos, plenty of absurd things currently can't show up on the table. Several groups make their own comp rules and report success. I don't think your post is backed by any actual facts sir.

And using the term "scrub mentality" sounds like you're just trying to fit in insults to drive away arguments and concerns to the contrary. Stop trying to bully people over the internet to not have their own opinions please.

I don't know how people don't understand this: if you gambled money on yourself in a tennis match, and then found out that your opponent got a pair of champ players (let's say they are relatives) to both play against you for him, at the same time, assuming that you're a novice at best in Tennis, would you not raise a concern about that? Especially if there was a sizable bet that you only went in on because you were both novices?

If you don't want to have your army brought down to a reasonable level to be played against by some method of handicap, then you obviously just want to get your kicks beating helpless puppies, and not actually playing a game involving any measure of skill.

(And if you try to be one of those guys who claims there's no skill in 40k, it may just be because you lack a skill level high enough to see it. There's no way I could keep a 40 win streak going with a medium tier army accompanied by many bad rolls without skillful piloting.)

All of this is incorrect. But that's okay. There is a reason I used, jokingly, the [sic] statement when referencing to the GW game creators and game designers. Jervis et al are poor at creating a player vs player tabletop strategy game. If it was player(s) vs scenarios, there's less of an issue.

And the ability to be skillful at 40k is greatly diminished because many players just want to not play a game and have Scrub mentality. I can get you the actual definition if you feel it's insulting because it's not. It's artificially limiting yourself out of powerful choices and actively complaining about someone using them. The Warhammer crowd is rich with that, proof existing right here.

And I was a greatly skilled 40k player. The relevance of such is nothing to this conversation, though.

 Paradigm wrote:
I think the simplest solution to the major problems is just to use the 6thEd rules for Jetbikes, Wraithguard and Wraithknights. That way, you get rid of the most imbalanced parts of both books (6th Serpents, 7th Jetbikes/WG/WK), including the prevalence of Strength D weapons, while the units that needed buffs but aren't OP keep them. Jetbikes and Wraithknights are still good, but not game-breakingly so.

Pretty much this seems to be the smart thing. Anything else is over complicating things.

There was nothing particularly wrong with Wraith units and Jetbikes in 6th, so use the 6th rules for them. The WS needed a nerf and the aspects needed a boost, so use 7th rules for them.

You could probably use the 7th rules for jetbikes and just limit the scat on them would be fine too.