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Covenite coteries lets you buy 2-6 Haemonculus, which can come with Web Way Portals for 105 points each. To unlock this you have to pay the exorbitant 100 point tax for 10 wracks.

Ally this to the new Eldar Wraithguard and you can perfect deep strike all your squads of them quite happily, completely negating their short range problem.

Thoughts?

Damn, thats insane.

Drop a spiritseer into one of the deepstriking squads and you get reroll 1s to hit with all those squads of wraithguard and any wraithknights firing at things near the place you drop the seer.

Already seen folks try this and it is pretty insane. Basically anything that many D-templates lands near evaporates. Ignores cover and armor dealing D3+1 wounds / pens kills literally anything in any codex.

The only things that can be considered a "counter" are to

#1 build lists of MSU to just trade points though I'm not finding that much stuff that can trade effectively with D-template high toughness well armored guys

#2 lots of interceptor - pray that you can have some riptides with Early Warning Override and ion accelerators and to just leave areas around your forces with no cover or just by numbers of interceptor shots through w/e your codex has.

#3 has enough bodies to bubble wrap that you just don't care about or recycles like the gargoyles from the nids (sky blight) and or chaos renagades hordes lists.

#4 somehow manipulate reserves to arrive via flyers or w/e off table to come in after the wraithguard arrive.

#5 make the bulk of your army flyers to avoid the D

#6 if you are going to have a super unit, just make sure it can die without messing up your list, has like a 2++ save or something, or be a unit from the new eldar like warp spiders that can get out of range on the enemy's shooting phase. And if it was gonna get killed, make sure you can trade effectively with the rest of the list to clean up the wraithguards that are hopfully in a bad position from killing your deathstar/super unit etc.

The thing is that that works against one unit of them.When you have 3 units of Wraithguard all DSing and then another load of units (for example you can take 3 DSing units of WG, 1 wih Scythes, 2 without, 3 Eldar planes, 2 units of jetbikes, 20 Wracks and a Cronos to give them 4+ FNP in 1850).

You could also just take the minimum wracks and no cronos, with several units of scatter laser bikes.

Coteaz and some Centurions in a Bastion (to increase the range of "I've been expecting you")
Flame template is 8" or something?

Lists that can counter the turn 1 deep strike
- Heavy interceptor shooting
- Bottom of turn 1 drop pod lists
- MSU
- Coteaz + a nasty shooty unit
- Servo Skulls

I think everyone is so enraged by the upcoming Eldar shenanigans... can't say I'm overly thrilled about it either. I hated them then, I'm sure I'll hate them a little more now.

UnrealTempest wrote:
Coteaz and some Centurions in a Bastion (to increase the range of "I've been expecting you")
Flame template is 8" or something?

Lists that can counter the turn 1 deep strike
- Heavy interceptor shooting
- Bottom of turn 1 drop pod lists
- MSU
- Coteaz + a nasty shooty unit
- Servo Skulls

I think everyone is so enraged by the upcoming Eldar shenanigans... can't say I'm overly thrilled about it either. I hated them then, I'm sure I'll hate them a little more now.

How do servo skulls help? Also this is by far the cheesiest thing ive ever seen. Just imagine this junk with Corsairs list T.T

Was just thinking you could take this further. Drop the planes and add Dark Reapers and more Haemies. Gives you 3 DSing Wraith Guard and 2 DSing Dark Reapers all with perfect deepstrike. That is bound to ruin anyone's day. And including Haemies, Spirit Seer and Wracks clocks in at ~1500 (top of the head calculation) giving you 350 points to spend in most tournament settings.

Damn Gw for not giving a rats ass about rules

Have one unit of the D scythe guard take a serpent. That way when you perfect deep strike, you can disembark 6, battle fate 6 more, and then Distort.

Battlefate will let you land 13" from Coteaz, then walk up and murder him. He and his unit will be soaking 5D6 hits from the templates (as per no escape/building rule) and then another 2D6 S6 hits from the collapse of the building.


Congratulations, you broke 40K. The day of the official release.

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:


...How do servo skulls help? Also this is by far the cheesiest thing ive ever seen. Just imagine this junk with Corsairs list T.T

Prevents deepstrike within a radius. Very annoying.

 FearPeteySodes wrote:

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:


...How do servo skulls help? Also this is by far the cheesiest thing ive ever seen. Just imagine this junk with Corsairs list T.T

Prevents deepstrike within a radius. Very annoying.

What codex is this?

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Have one unit of the D scythe guard take a serpent. That way when you perfect deep strike, you can disembark 6, battle fate 6 more, and then Distort.

Battlefate will let you land 13" from Coteaz, then walk up and murder him. He and his unit will be soaking 5D6 hits from the templates (as per no escape/building rule) and then another 2D6 S6 hits from the collapse of the building.


Congratulations, you broke 40K. The day of the official release.

What is Battlefate? Do you mean Battle Focus or Battle Trance? If you do, than I would like to point out that you need a Spiritseer in the unit to cast a power to give them that. So you now have a unit of 5 D-scythe guard in a Serpent, joined by a Haemi w/ WWP and a Spiritseer. With absoluted no upgrades to anything (other than the D-scythes and WWP), that 1 unit is 500pts.

How does this break 40K? Sure it is powerful, but you will only lose 2 units, one the Eldar picks, and 1 that you pick**, then the guard are stuck in CC for the rest of the game.

**So this unit drops in, vaporizes a unit, then you pick an expendable MSU unit to charge them (and soak up the overwatch), and then charge them with ANY other unit that is at least semi conpatent in CC. Boom, done. The chances of the 2 units that died and the 1 tarpit unit of yours being over 500pts total are very low ***IF*** you don't play Deathstars or Superheavies. MSU armies laugh at D weapons.

 Galef wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Have one unit of the D scythe guard take a serpent. That way when you perfect deep strike, you can disembark 6, battle fate 6 more, and then Distort.

Battlefate will let you land 13" from Coteaz, then walk up and murder him. He and his unit will be soaking 5D6 hits from the templates (as per no escape/building rule) and then another 2D6 S6 hits from the collapse of the building.


Congratulations, you broke 40K. The day of the official release.

What is Battlefate? Do you mean Battle Focus or Battle Trance? If you do, than I would like to point out that you need a Spiritseer in the unit to cast a power to give them that. So you now have a unit of 5 D-scythe guard in a Serpent, joined by a Haemi w/ WWP and a Spiritseer. With absoluted no upgrades to anything (other than the D-scythes and WWP), that 1 unit is 500pts.

How does this break 40K? Sure it is powerful, but you will only lose 2 units, one the Eldar picks, and 1 that you pick**, then the guard are stuck in CC for the rest of the game.

**So this unit drops in, vaporizes a unit, then you pick an expendable MSU unit to charge them (and soak up the overwatch), and then charge them with ANY other unit that is at least semi conpatent in CC. Boom, done. The chances of the 2 units that died and the 1 tarpit unit of yours being over 500pts total are very low ***IF*** you don't play Deathstars or Superheavies. MSU armies laugh at D weapons.

Because that isn't the powerful way to utilise this.

The more powerful way is to take 3 untis with no transports and perfect deepstrike all of them.Sure you can only hit iwth 4 D strength flamers on the turn you land, but that's probably fine. So you take 5 units of 5 Wraithguard and 3 haemies with webway portals, plus one spirit seer.

If you take 2 Scythe units and 1 wraithcannon unit thats 965 points, call it 1000 to give the Haemies scissorhands, now you have 3 units deleted when the things land then if you charge them you are in combat with a character with 5 attacks, poison 3+ and rending as well as the wraithguard giving majority toughness 6 and 3+ armour. Its not great in combat, but it will happily kill through chaff squads. Not to mention the unit you have to sacrifice to overwatch before you can even charge.

I should also mention that anything within 12 inches is at -1 leadership and Spirit Seers have Telepathy.

And there is still the rest of the army to deal with on top of that. Its very, very nasty.

This against MSU is 6-9 units sacrificed, that may well push you over 1000 points.

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:

 FearPeteySodes wrote:

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:


...How do servo skulls help? Also this is by far the cheesiest thing ive ever seen. Just imagine this junk with Corsairs list T.T

Prevents deepstrike within a radius. Very annoying.

What codex is this?

It's an item within the inquisition dataslate. I don't remember the specifics but it's an interesting entry. The jist though is you get like 6 of them and can create a sizable deepstrike no fly zone.

I still think that you guys are over valuing the ability of this combo. You can only get 3 flamers if still in DS formation for "most" situations. I have tried it with Daemon Flamers of Tz, the 4th template almost never gets to fire.

Also, you are assuming that all 3 units come in the same turn. Chances are that 1 wont, and WG are easier kill than Teminators. Just move what survives away and shoot the piss out of them.

I also play Daemons and I just don't see this being that hard to beat. Is it nasty, HECK YEAH. Does it break 40K? not at all.

 FearPeteySodes wrote:

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:

 FearPeteySodes wrote:

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:


...How do servo skulls help? Also this is by far the cheesiest thing ive ever seen. Just imagine this junk with Corsairs list T.T

Prevents deepstrike within a radius. Very annoying.

What codex is this?

It's an item within the inquisition dataslate. I don't remember the specifics but it's an interesting entry. The jist though is you get like 6 of them and can create a sizable deepstrike no fly zone.

They also get auto picked up when an enemy moves within an inch of them so since the WWP won't be in until turn 2 it gives you plenty of time to sweep them up turn one with your 48" moving bikes.


No idea why one guy suggested pods were good as a counter to this, since the majority arrive turn 1 and wait to get hit in the face. If you have top of turn playing pods theres a great chance 75% of your army is on the ground before they WWP in. Pods are the worst counter IMO, massed rhinos are much better, especially if you outflank them (raven guard) make them waste their one time drop peeling away cheap transports while the rest come in from the sides and out range them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
I still think that you guys are over valuing the ability of this combo. You can only get 3 flamers if still in DS formation for "most" situations. I have tried it with Daemon Flamers of Tz, the 4th template almost never gets to fire.

Also, you are assuming that all 3 units come in the same turn. Chances are that 1 wont, and WG are easier kill than Teminators. Just move what survives away and shoot the piss out of them.

I also play Daemons and I just don't see this being that hard to beat. Is it nasty, HECK YEAH. Does it break 40K? not at all.

autarchs and cheap coms relays are a thing you know right?

Yes, they are. Please keep putting points into this combo. The more you add to make this 1 gimmick list work, the worse it will actually be.
I would be more afraid to fight an army with only 1 unit of Scythe-guard with WWP that also had other kinds of units in it, than to fight a list like you guys are talking about.

Oh, and you wont even be able to do this in most tourney, since many of them only allow 1 CAD/special Detachments, plus 1 Allie or Formation.
The best you could hope to do is field the Coven Detachment with a Wraithhost formation and that would mean fielding a Wraithlord, only 1 WK and NO jetbikes and no ObSec. Yes please

Yes, please invest all these points into these units and have them mybe not even make their points back. Then whats left of the opponents army shoots and kills most of your stuff all at once. GG

My point still stands.
There are plenty of hard counter to this combo.
Sure it's going to delete something of the table.... maybe, but it's not that difficult to deal with.

Mawlocs still would ruin them (I don't even care if you put invis on them after they come on the table)
I would love to field Coteaz and a Centstar. Have some servo skulls placed around so they either deepstrike close enough for my "I've been expecting you" and laugh.
They aren't great in combat. MSU them into overwatching a 15pt model LMAO, k.
Assault them and collect your ego-points.

Galef has the right attitude, it's not that bad.

I never understood this "deathstar mentality" with players putting obscene amounts of points into one/a couple of mega-units. MSU for life.

 Galef wrote:
Yes, they are. Please keep putting points into this combo. The more you add to make this 1 gimmick list work, the worse it will actually be.
I would be more afraid to fight an army with only 1 unit of Scythe-guard with WWP that also had other kinds of units in it, than to fight a list like you guys are talking about.

Oh, and you wont even be able to do this in most tourney, since many of them only allow 1 CAD/special Detachments, plus 1 Allie or Formation.
The best you could hope to do is field the Coven Detachment with a Wraithhost formation and that would mean fielding a Wraithlord, only 1 WK and NO jetbikes. Yes please

Who said you need the wraith host? Literally every tactic thread someone acts like CAD's won't work. I am looking at the two books, it's not that restrictive.

70 Autarch

81 (3) Windriders
81 (3) Windriders
81 (3) Windriders
81 (3) Windriders

105 WWP haemi
210 (5) D scythe guard

105 WWP haemi
210 (5) D scythe guard

105 WWP haemi
210 (5) D scythe guard

50 (5) Wracks
50 (5) Wracks

295 WK

70 ADL with coms

1804

use the rest to add upgrades


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Yes, please invest all these points into these units and have them mybe not even make their points back. Then whats left of the opponents army shoots and kills most of your stuff all at once. GG

That's literally every game of 40k....

You buy things, and try to kill the other guys things while not losing your own.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Yes, they are. Please keep putting points into this combo. The more you add to make this 1 gimmick list work, the worse it will actually be.
I would be more afraid to fight an army with only 1 unit of Scythe-guard with WWP that also had other kinds of units in it, than to fight a list like you guys are talking about.

Oh, and you wont even be able to do this in most tourney, since many of them only allow 1 CAD/special Detachments, plus 1 Allie or Formation.
The best you could hope to do is field the Coven Detachment with a Wraithhost formation and that would mean fielding a Wraithlord, only 1 WK and NO jetbikes. Yes please

Who said you need the wraith host? Literally every tactic thread someone acts like CAD's won't work. I am looking at the two books, it's not that restrictive.

70 Autarch

81 (3) Windriders
81 (3) Windriders
81 (3) Windriders
81 (3) Windriders

105 WWP haemi
210 (5) D scythe guard

105 WWP haemi
210 (5) D scythe guard

105 WWP haemi
210 (5) D scythe guard

50 (5) Wracks
50 (5) Wracks

295 WK

70 ADL with coms

1804

use the rest to add upgrades

I was under the impression that most tourneys only allow 1 CAD OR 1 Codex Detachment. This list you just posted is 1 CAD AND 1 Codex detachment. If you can take as many detachments like that, 1 of 2 things has happened: Either A) you are playing in a tourney that allows this, in which case you should expect to run into these nasty combos, or B) you AGREED to play against it in a friendly game.

I am a firm believer in sitting down with your opponents and agreeing to play games that BOTH people will enjoy. If you don't do this with your opponents (outside of tourneys of course) than it is your fault for getting stomped

 UnrealTempest wrote:
My point still stands.
There are plenty of hard counter to this combo.
Sure it's going to delete something of the table.... maybe, but it's not that difficult to deal with.

Mawlocs still would ruin them (I don't even care if you put invis on them after they come on the table)
I would love to field Coteaz and a Centstar. Have some servo skulls placed around so they either deepstrike close enough for my "I've been expecting you" and laugh.
They aren't great in combat. MSU them into overwatching a 15pt model LMAO, k.
Assault them and collect your ego-points.

Galef has the right attitude, it's not that bad.

I completely agree. I have 2 - 3 units of Deathmarks in my list at nearly all times. Please deep strike your flamer units so I can blast away at them with my rapid fire hit on 2+ wound on 4+ rend on 6's sniper rifles.

So after they Deepstrike... assuming that they are in a circle....
are templates allowed to hit through your own unit? Because if NO, then realistically only 2 or 3 can hit a single unit after they deep strike.
Unless they are allowed to run and shoot after they deep strike.
Am I crazy?

 Galef wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Yes, they are. Please keep putting points into this combo. The more you add to make this 1 gimmick list work, the worse it will actually be.
I would be more afraid to fight an army with only 1 unit of Scythe-guard with WWP that also had other kinds of units in it, than to fight a list like you guys are talking about.

Oh, and you wont even be able to do this in most tourney, since many of them only allow 1 CAD/special Detachments, plus 1 Allie or Formation.
The best you could hope to do is field the Coven Detachment with a Wraithhost formation and that would mean fielding a Wraithlord, only 1 WK and NO jetbikes. Yes please

Who said you need the wraith host? Literally every tactic thread someone acts like CAD's won't work. I am looking at the two books, it's not that restrictive.

70 Autarch

81 (3) Windriders
81 (3) Windriders
81 (3) Windriders
81 (3) Windriders

105 WWP haemi
210 (5) D scythe guard

105 WWP haemi
210 (5) D scythe guard

105 WWP haemi
210 (5) D scythe guard

50 (5) Wracks
50 (5) Wracks

295 WK

70 ADL with coms

1804

use the rest to add upgrades

I was under the impression that most tourneys only allow 1 CAD OR 1 Codex Detachment. This list you just posted is 1 CAD AND 1 Codex detachment. If you can take as many detachments like that, 1 of 2 things has happened: Either A) you are playing in a tourney that allows this, in which case you should expect to run into these nasty combos, or B) you AGREED to play against it in a friendly game.

I am a firm believer in sitting down with your opponents and agreeing to play games that BOTH people will enjoy. If you don't do this with your opponents (outside of tourneys of course) than it is your fault for getting stomped

The ITC format allows a Codex-specific detachment + a CAD. You are just restricted from using a duplicate detachment.

An army may be built using up to two Detachments.
An army may not have a duplicate of any Detachment.
Note: This includes “Decurion Style” Detachments which are comprised of multiple data slates and Formations. They may not take duplicate Formations within the Detachment, although they make take duplicate Data Slate units within the Detachment if permitted to do so.

 UnrealTempest wrote:
So after they Deepstrike... assuming that they are in a circle....
are templates allowed to hit through your own unit? Because if NO, then realistically on 2 or 3 can hit a single unit after they deep strike.
Unless they are allowed to run and shoot after they deep strike.
Am I crazy?

You are absolutely on-point. In a standard DS formation (all clumped together) only 3 models will be able to fire their templates as the other models will have to shoot over models in the same unit (which is not allowed by templates)

Also remember that templates MUST be placed to cover as many enemy models as possible, meaning that you cannot avoid placing them on your own models if doing so would get extra hits on the enemy unit.

A Spiritseer has a primaris power that gives the ability for them to run and shoot, however you are again adding point into the combo.
--------------------------
The biggest issue I see with the reaction to ALOT of these rules changes is that people have not thought through all the situations and rules that can apply. A unit doesn't seem so OP when you know it's weaknesses. I find that I am CONSTANTLY advising my opponents on how to best defeat my stuff, because they play against me like I am playing spaz mareens

Right, that list was ITC legal. Moreover I have seen multiple other tournaments LESS restrictive then that.

I am not saying that list is impossible to beat, but handwaving it off like it's bad is ridiculous.

 Galef wrote:

 UnrealTempest wrote:
So after they Deepstrike... assuming that they are in a circle....
are templates allowed to hit through your own unit? Because if NO, then realistically on 2 or 3 can hit a single unit after they deep strike.
Unless they are allowed to run and shoot after they deep strike.
Am I crazy?

You are absolutely on-point. In a standard DS formation (all clumped together) only 3 models will be able to fire their templates as the other models will have to shoot over models in the same unit (which is not allowed by templates)

Also remember that templates MUST be placed to cover as many enemy models as possible, meaning that you cannot avoid placing them on your own models if doing so would get extra hits on the enemy unit.

A Spiritseer has a primaris power that gives the ability for them to run and shoot, however you are again adding point into the combo.
--------------------------
The biggest issue I see with the reaction to ALOT of these rules changes is that people have not thought through all the situations and rules that can apply. A unit doesn't seem so OP when you know it's weaknesses. I find that I am CONSTANTLY advising my opponents on how to best defeat my stuff, because they play against me like I am playing spaz mareens

The Covenite Coteries has a silver lining in that the Wraithguard don't automatically get Battle Focus. So they can't run and then fire after their Deep Strike. Fitting the Covenite into a Eldar Warhost however...

 Galef wrote:


Also remember that templates MUST be placed to cover as many enemy models as possible, meaning that you cannot avoid placing them on your own models if doing so would get extra hits on the enemy unit.

What?! If your going to try and discuss tactics you should really get your facts straight. So far you have no idea how templates work and you have are making major assumptions about how list construction is done.