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What size bases are the WraithGuard? Termi-sized bases?
If so then only 2 D-scythes will hit a single dreadnought-sized base [from the unit of 5 using the WWP]
If I'm paying 50pts for the unit to have d-scythes, I'm going to want to use all 5.....

Look how many points is spent on just WWP + D-guard.
You're going to get to use 2 per squad when you come in?!
K. I'm no longer scared.
What I WOULD HAVE been terrified of.... is if they had a GK shunt move.

 UnrealTempest wrote:
What size bases are the WraithGuard? Termi-sized bases?
If so then only 2 D-scythes will hit a single dreadnought-sized base [from the unit of 5 using the WWP]
If I'm paying 50pts for the unit to have d-scythes, I'm going to want to use all 5.....

Look how many points is spent on just WWP + D-guard.
You're going to get to use 2 per squad when you come in?!
K. I'm no longer scared.
What I WOULD HAVE been terrified of.... is if they had a GK shunt move.

On a 3+ they deal d3 wounds/hull points. Even two Wraithguard hitting something big will toast it.

They Deep Strike in. Kill something. Then what? What are you going to do against that many T6 3+ wounds in your face? Assault them? That's a no go with Wall of Death.

Interceptor Iontides are one true counter to these guys.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Galef wrote:


Also remember that templates MUST be placed to cover as many enemy models as possible, meaning that you cannot avoid placing them on your own models if doing so would get extra hits on the enemy unit.

What?! If your going to try and discuss tactics you should really get your facts straight. So far you have no idea how templates work and you have are making major assumptions about how list construction is done.

Directly from the rules:

"Instead of rolling To Hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the firing model and the rest of the template covers as many models in the target unit as possible, without touching any other friendly models (including other models from the firing model’s unit). "

I can see where his confusion is coming from, but what it means is that you must place it to cover as many as possible while still avoiding touching your own models. No need to get in his face about it, it's an understandable mistake.

MSU.
I'd like to charge you with my vanguard squad please. Oh no, it died. Commence charge with a 45pt dragoon. Oh would you look at that, you're tarpitted for the rest of the game.

And that's just Skitarii LOL, charge my 15 pt mucolid at you. Followed by anything tyranids has lol....... really tho?
When a Mawloc comes in and wipes the 300 pt squad.... I can name so many ridiculous instances where I'm just not convinced this D-scythe-"star" is all that great.

This whole thread is over-hyped IMO.

 UnrealTempest wrote:
What size bases are the WraithGuard? Termi-sized bases?
If so then only 2 D-scythes will hit a single dreadnought-sized base [from the unit of 5 using the WWP]
If I'm paying 50pts for the unit to have d-scythes, I'm going to want to use all 5.....

Look how many points is spent on just WWP + D-guard.
You're going to get to use 2 per squad when you come in?!
K. I'm no longer scared.
What I WOULD HAVE been terrified of.... is if they had a GK shunt move.

You can easily get 4 templates off with proper placement since they are on 40 mm. They all need to touch the first placed but after that you can fit them however you like.

The image demonstrates the 5 40mm and the one 25mm with the templates that can fit.

Even having the 4 perimeter bases touching you can lay down 4 templates but the example I gave lets you group them tighter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

confoo22 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Galef wrote:


Also remember that templates MUST be placed to cover as many enemy models as possible, meaning that you cannot avoid placing them on your own models if doing so would get extra hits on the enemy unit.

What?! If your going to try and discuss tactics you should really get your facts straight. So far you have no idea how templates work and you have are making major assumptions about how list construction is done.

Directly from the rules:

"Instead of rolling To Hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the firing model and the rest of the template covers as many models in the target unit as possible, without touching any other friendly models (including other models from the firing model’s unit). "

I can see where his confusion is coming from, but what it means is that you must place it to cover as many as possible while still avoiding touching your own models. No need to get in his face about it, it's an understandable mistake.

I wasn't getting in his face about it, if your going quote as a counter argument in a public tactica forum you need to make sure your not sewing disinformation.

 Red Corsair wrote:


That's literally every game of 40k....

You buy things, and try to kill the other guys things while not losing your own.

I know. I'm just saying this tactic isn't as scary as most people think, and probably won't win you that many games. At least that's how I see it playing out. Only time will tell.

 UnrealTempest wrote:
MSU.
I'd like to charge you with my vanguard squad please. Oh no, it died. Commence charge with a 45pt dragoon. Oh would you look at that, you're tarpitted for the rest of the game.

And that's just Skitarii LOL, charge my 15 pt mucolid at you. Followed by anything tyranids has lol....... really tho?
When a Mawloc comes in and wipes the 300 pt squad.... I can name so many ridiculous instances where I'm just not convinced this D-scythe-"star" is all that great.

This whole thread is over-hyped IMO.

Again, the only hyperbole in this thread is coming from posters like you claiming its not good. It's also hardly a star, see the list I posted, it has the flexibility to be awesome at maelstrom while having 3 units that can come in and delete high priority targets.

Can it be countered? Absolutely, but most TAC lists aren't equipped to deal with it which will make it strong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


That's literally every game of 40k....

You buy things, and try to kill the other guys things while not losing your own.

I know. I'm just saying this tactic isn't as scary as most people think, and probably won't win you that many games. At least that's how I see it playing out. Only time will tell.

Care to share the why? Posts where you just state that your not worried contribute nothing. You can be carefree all you want, with no plan I see you getting tabled, maybe you have a brilliant plan, in that case feel free to share.

That is a really helpful diagram. Thank you (genuinely). Now I have to go buy some Wraithguard....just kidding.

I didn't have my rulebook handy, so I couldn't look up the rule, thanx Confoo2 for quoting it for us.

Even in light of this, you are still paying over 300pts per unit to make this work (over 400pts if you elect to use Serpents). 300pts of anything DESERVES to kill something when it drops.

I am not trying to "wave this off" I am just pointing out that you are paying for what you are getting, and that shooting/CC can still be a viable counter to the unit "after" it drops. Remember that once it drops, they only move 6" per turn. It is clearly obnoxious, but does not break 40K...it's a gimmick

The core idea is a bunch of units with str D templates being dropped next to stuff with no scatter.

That's pretty damn obnoxious, which is I think the effect Red Corsair was going for. Regardless of the points involved in each squad.

 Galef wrote:
That is a really helpful diagram. Thank you

Now I have to go buy some Wraithguard....just kidding.

I didn't have my rulebook handy, so I couldn't look up the rule, thanx Confoo2 for quoting it for us.

Even in light of this, you are still paying over 300pts per unit to make this work. 300pts of anything DESERVES to kill something when it drops.

I am not trying to "wave this off" I am just pointing out that you are paying for what you are getting, and that shooting/CC can still be a viable counter to it

Exactly, I am not saying it's the end all be all. Also wasn't trying to be snippy about the rule mistake. Against things like MSU rhinos your running the risk of arriving while the occupants are still inside. But, having said that, those 4 scat bikes should open them up fairly easily.

Where it gets particularly nasty is in regards to pricier units, those devastator cents or necron wraiths die just as easily as those throw away transports.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pickled_heretic wrote:
The core idea is a bunch of units with str D templates being dropped next to stuff with no scatter.

That's pretty damn obnoxious, which is I think the effect Red Corsair was going for. Regardless of the points involved in each squad.

^This

 Red Corsair wrote:

Where it gets particularly nasty is in regards to pricier units, those devastator cents or necron wraiths die just as easily as those throw away transports.

Agreed, but you could say that is what this unit is for. Eldar didn't have deathstar units** before, now they have a really good "anti-deathstar" unit.

**wraithknight & serpents spam doesn't really count as deathstars

 Red Corsair wrote:


Care to share the why? Posts where you just state that your not worried contribute nothing. You can be carefree all you want, with no plan I see you getting tabled, maybe you have a brilliant plan, in that case feel free to share.

Because people are investing a ton of points into pulling this off. What was it, 315 points for the 3 Haemonculi with Webway portals, points for the minimum squads of Wracks, then 630 points for the Wraithguard themselves? I'm not saying it won't be devastating, but you come in, destroy whatever you want, and then the rest of their army tears that unit to shreds. Sure, they're T6. That have a 3+ save and that's it. Each unit probably won't even make it's points back before it's brutally torn apart. That's all I'm trying to say. Is it devastating? Sure. Are those Imperial Knights on the board? Good chance they're gone. But even then, the -1 to the table makes it so the Imperial Knights (Because lets face it, in a tourney list you have at least 3 of these things, right?) are likely to survive. Then your suicide units won't live much longer.

 Galef wrote:

What is Battlefate? Do you mean Battle Focus or Battle Trance?
**So this unit drops in, vaporizes a unit, then you pick an expendable MSU unit to charge them (and soak up the overwatch), and then charge them with ANY other unit that is at least semi conpatent in CC. Boom, done. The chances of the 2 units that died and the 1 tarpit unit of yours being over 500pts total are very low ***IF*** you don't play Deathstars or Superheavies. MSU armies laugh at D weapons.

Sorry Battle focus, which they get as a detachment rule.

Attach HQ (archon) to wraith scythes in wave serpent.
Deep strike without scatter.
Disembark 6", leaving the archon inside.
Now the whole unit of wraith scythes have battle focus, and can run, then shoot.
I think the rumor said that they also always run 6", which is insane if true. That would give you 12" from the rear hatch to get the perfect shot lined.
Small cheap MSU is taking a beating from scatter bikes.

I'm thinking 2x5 scythes led by webway archons (in serpents), 1 wraith knight (reasons) 2x5 warriors in venoms (DE core tax), and then Scatter Bikes and a farseer.

-Matt

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


Care to share the why? Posts where you just state that your not worried contribute nothing. You can be carefree all you want, with no plan I see you getting tabled, maybe you have a brilliant plan, in that case feel free to share.

Because people are investing a ton of points into pulling this off. What was it, 315 points for the 3 Haemonculi with Webway portals, points for the minimum squads of Wracks, then 630 points for the Wraithguard themselves? I'm not saying it won't be devastating, but you come in, destroy whatever you want, and then the rest of their army tears that unit to shreds. Sure, they're T6. That have a 3+ save and that's it. Each unit probably won't even make it's points back before it's brutally torn apart. That's all I'm trying to say. Is it devastating? Sure. Are those Imperial Knights on the board? Good chance they're gone. But even then, the -1 to the table makes it so the Imperial Knights (Because lets face it, in a tourney list you have at least 3 of these things, right?) are likely to survive. Then your suicide units won't live much longer.

You must have missed the list I posted, because it was anything but tame besides those three units. Basically it's like saying wraiths are awful because they cost so many points and you spend all game trying to earn their points back. In a vacuum sure, but in reality we know thats not true.

each unit has 8 majority 6T wounds and a 3+ save. Tell me what on earth is going to easily blow that off the table? It takes 27 bolter shots to kill one wraithguard. If your answer is grav, I'd say sure except noone takes grav on tactical marines, because they aren't good in any other situation compared to a melta gun. So really you'd be talking bikes or grav cents, which big surprise, these come in an delete.

If you play necrons, you have to rely on volume. Gaus flayers are identical to bolters, not gonna happen. So what elite CC necrons? They get smoked either by the initial drop, or by overwatch and now your commiting way more points. BTW the autarch and com can just as easily allow me to drop on unit a turn, super annoying for elite targets trying to hide using bubble wrap. BTW have fun dealing with the 48 s6 shots a turn added to that WK stomping towards you lol.

I wouldnt call this a star, but it is a very dirty Alpha strike.

I get all riled up about Eldar. Cannot stand playing against the cheese lists hahaha.
Well played, diagram was pretty key. We shall see how it actually works in game. I'd love to see someone deploy their deepstrike like that for every single squad lol.

Yea I would never field that kind of cheese myself but it is a very real threat ha ha.

 Galef wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Where it gets particularly nasty is in regards to pricier units, those devastator cents or necron wraiths die just as easily as those throw away transports.

Agreed, but you could say that is what this unit is for. Eldar didn't have deathstar units** before, now they have a really good "anti-deathstar" unit.

**wraithknight & serpents spam doesn't really count as deathstars

Maybe you didn't play seer council? Which, BTW is also going to make a comeback.

Why do you believe Jetseer is coming back? I thought the reason it was played less was due to the loss of the DE character giving the unit hit and run.

 Galef wrote:
That is a really helpful diagram. Thank you (genuinely). Now I have to go buy some Wraithguard....just kidding.

I didn't have my rulebook handy, so I couldn't look up the rule, thanx Confoo2 for quoting it for us.

Even in light of this, you are still paying over 300pts per unit to make this work (over 400pts if you elect to use Serpents). 300pts of anything DESERVES to kill something when it drops.

I am not trying to "wave this off" I am just pointing out that you are paying for what you are getting, and that shooting/CC can still be a viable counter to the unit "after" it drops. Remember that once it drops, they only move 6" per turn. It is clearly obnoxious, but does not break 40K...it's a gimmick

The problem isn't that they can kill things. It's that they can alt-ctrl-delete the hardest units in the game. Name another 300 point unit that can do that with such good reliability.

The only targets that are reasonably safe from it are hordes at max coherency, since they're taking less damage than they would to an equivalent layout of Heavy Flamers or something, and probably don't care all that much about the casualties anyway.

 Dash2021 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Where it gets particularly nasty is in regards to pricier units, those devastator cents or necron wraiths die just as easily as those throw away transports.

Agreed, but you could say that is what this unit is for. Eldar didn't have deathstar units** before, now they have a really good "anti-deathstar" unit.

**wraithknight & serpents spam doesn't really count as deathstars

Maybe you didn't play seer council? Which, BTW is also going to make a comeback.

I did play a mini Seer Council in 5th ed, but Deathstar do not get Orks & Nids their armour saves. Just because something was the hardest unit in the game to kill, doesn't make it a Deathstar unless is has actual punch. Seer council could hurt vehicles in CC, but as soon as something charged them, they were stuck there for the rest of the game

I think Eldar and Covens pair perfectly.

I've been writing a tactica series on this very thing actually, which you can find here if you're interested.

Maybe you didn't play seer council? Which, BTW is also going to make a comeback.

Comeback? Seer Council has never left, it just spent 7th edition summoning Daemons in addition to being unkillable.

Without the ability to summon anymore, Seer Council as we know it is dead.

Actually looking at Battle Focus , none of the wording has changed so I don't believe you actually can use it's ability with a Haemnoculus joined to the squad.

Also it's cheaper to just Deep Strike Raiders with 5 in them hop out Battle Focus Run towards the target and kill everything.
3 Raiders is 195 Points.
Just take a Dark Eldar Raider Cad w/ the Wraith Formation. That's all you need and you still got like 850 points to spend on Dark Eldar for lots of shooty shooty.

The Dark Eldar Raider will also at least provide some protection for the Wraithguard and they can murderize things from a distance.

I'm confused on a few suggestions in here:

#1 Inquisition servo skulls prevent infiltrate and scout moves to within 12' of the skull. It allows your units to deep strike near it with less scatter but has no effect that I can find that limits other folk's deep strike.

#2 Coteaz cannot use his "Ive been expecting you" power while inside a bastion, that building is most likely going to come down as well with that many D templates aimed at it (4 is plenty to mess up the building)

#3 deepstriking a transport vehicle is much better idea for spacing out 6' from disembarking and pretty much ignores the problems with limited number of templates so why are we so wrapped up with the units limited firing ark? Ya, it's more points but it's not like venoms/wave serpents exactly suck either. They are still some of the better transports in the game even after the nerf to the shield. You don't even need the battle focus in this kind of scenario (heck, you can even get back on the transport and do it again in a later turn). Is there something I'm just not seeing with this tactic?

Attaching a Haemonoculus sounds cool until you realize they lose Battle Focus which is kind of baller.

 Sarigar wrote:
Why do you believe Jetseer is coming back? I thought the reason it was played less was due to the loss of the DE character giving the unit hit and run.

Baharroth and Irillyth both also have Hit & Run. Baharroth is Jump Infantry and Irillyth is Jet Pack infantry. Both are fearless so you even save some points by not having to take the Shard of Anaris on one of your Farseers. I might have to make an updated Jetseer Council Thread once I get my codex in hand.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
Why do you believe Jetseer is coming back? I thought the reason it was played less was due to the loss of the DE character giving the unit hit and run.

Baharroth and Irillyth both also have Hit & Run. Baharroth is Jump Infantry and Irillyth is Jet Pack infantry. Both are fearless so you even save some points by not having to take the Shard of Anaris on one of your Farseers. I might have to make an updated Jetseer Council Thread once I get my codex in hand.

Baharroth also dropped 20 pts. He lost his 4++ but that hardly matters in a seer council. Seer council never died, other things just became better. I think it will be great again though now that you can easily get 3-4 farseers in a jet council fallowing most format rules.