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Played a very cool 12k "Apoc" battle the other day. Our opponents fielded a shadowsword super-heavy, Keeper of Secrets Greater Demon, and gargantuan Bloodthirster. My team had no super-heavies or gargantuans. We won on points, but the sheer amount of fire power that those demons ate up without a scratch left me wondering how one could actually defeat them. Even my assassins, ostensibly specialists at this sort of things, were of limited use, I focused more on the other monstrous creatures.

Our Grey Knights player was able to deep strike and power-fist the shadowsword out of existence. But the demons just ate up turn after turn of fire. Is there a way to handle those gargantuan creatures if you don't have one of your own?

The GKs should've assaulted the daemons. Force Weapons have ID rule, which causes d3 Wounds on gargantuan creatures; plus he'd possess Preferred Enemy.

 Vector Strike wrote:
The GKs should've assaulted the daemons. Force Weapons have ID rule, which causes d3 Wounds on gargantuan creatures; plus he'd possess Preferred Enemy.

He was dealing with most of the backfield, the gargantuans were moving 12" a turn so they could easily get separation, even after gate of infinity. The GKs would still need to cast hammerhand and force to even wound the T8 demons, only hitting on 5s and wounding on 6s, then getting past the invulnerable saves. I'm sure they would've been the best choice, but that would've required a lot of things to go right to get them into charge range, cast both powers, survive the demons' attacks (this is the biggest problem), just to inflict a couple wounds for every 20 attacks.

I figured we were well prepared with all of my snipers and assassins, but only wounding on a 6 against models with good invul saves (I think the Keeper was 3+ invul, the Bloodthirster was 5+ with 5+ FNP, not positive). The saving grace was that they took up so many points, it allowed us to clear the infantry and hold the objectives, which I suppose is a weakness to consider. But I'm just not sure how we could have feasibly dealt with them, especially since the Keeper was regenerating half the wounds she inflicted in close combat. I'm talking about ~5k points of IG and Marines pouring fire into those ~800 point models every turn, to little effect.

Super-heavies yes, Gargantuans no. MC have inherently broken rules that can be exploited by Gargantuans.

This is assuming I don't tailor.

Surprised you had so few SH in 12k. We played a 9k per side yesterday and there were 2 shadowswords, 4 baneblades and 9 imperial knights between the 2 sides.

But yeah, Gargantuans are much stronger than SH's, generally speaking since most SH's are terrible at CC, so it's fairly easy to smack 'em around with a powerfist or similar. Can't do than with gargs since they have an annoying tendancy to hit back, usually before you do, and get saves in combat.

Not to mention it's much easier to inflict D3 Hull Points than it is to inflict D3 wounds without resorting to Destroyer Weapons, particulary when my Hierophant can claim a 4+ cover save from having a toe in ruins, combined with a Venomthrope, which it can carry, for 2+. Then there is the Wraithknight which we all know, is undercosted.

And the fact that Melta/Haywire/AP2/AP1 still work extremely well against SHV, whereas Gargantuans somehow get a buff against Poison and Snipers. Only real weakness is Grav and Fleshbane but one of those is specific to Imperium and the other is extremely scarce.

Get rid of Stomp attacks and I might be fine with Gargantuans as it means I can at least tarpit.

The hope that I will have a chance to play a game this size is why I am going to have a Stompa in my collection. A 12k battle sounds fun with a case of beer and a stack of salty snacks.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Not to mention it's much easier to inflict D3 Hull Points than it is to inflict D3 wounds without resorting to Destroyer Weapons, particulary when my Hierophant can claim a 4+ cover save from having a toe in ruins, combined with a Venomthrope, which it can carry, for 2+. Then there is the Wraithknight which we all know, is undercosted.

And the fact that Melta/Haywire/AP2/AP1 still work extremely well against SHV, whereas Gargantuans somehow get a buff against Poison and Snipers. Only real weakness is Grav and Fleshbane but one of those is specific to Imperium and the other is extremely scarce.

Get rid of Stomp attacks and I might be fine with Gargantuans as it means I can at least tarpit.

I agree with this statement.

The rules for both are very messed up, as is. The fact that a Super heavy takes a hit and just takes it while some GCs can have Invulns (and not just in certain facings), and inherently have Feel No Pain is just stupid. My Obelisk is 5 points more than a Wraithknight, and which do you think is easier to kill? My Gauss would laugh at a Baneblade, but tremble to a Wraithknight. Just doesn't seem right, to me.

A little more on topic, I'd be able to easier deal with enemy GCs if GW didn't gut mine. Totally fair, if you ask me.

Although highly expensive in points, the Orks have a SHV walker/transport that can CC, stomp, grot riggers, have saves if given a mek with forcefield and thanks to SH transport rules can be loaded in a way to keep regenerating itself for those wounds that don't get saved by adding sqauds that have 3 meks for free each (lootas and burnas). Something like having 3 5 ork sqauds of burnas/lootas each taking the option to switch in 3 meks then adding 3 meks from the free HQ options and a Big Mek with Kustom/Mega Force Field would provide 13 meks with mek tools to keep it fixed and still have room for one more Ork of your choice. Very expensive, very....but hey it's a 12k game right?

Freakshow lists handle GCs with no problem. I tend to use Deep Striking turbo-penetrators like Fusion Guns to handle vehicles, which tend to fairly well against superheavies. Haven't had any difficulties so far.

Depends on the super heavy. Most of them are pretty mediocre for their points, especially the vehicles/walkers. Knights are costed decently, war hounds are okay, reavers are sadly terribly overcosted, lord of skulls is way overcosted, thunderhawks are overcosted, baneblades are a bit overcosted... WK's are a standout as being ludicrously undercosted.
Whenever I play against any of them, I do one of two things:

1. Kill it ASAP before it pays for itself with concentrated effort
2. Totally ignore it. If it's a walker, tie it up in combat.

Trying to do something in between those two options is what the titan's player wants you to do.
I have yet to lose a game where the opponent has a superheavy and I don't, unless you count eldar with the WK, which beats people more because the lists overall are broken good.

I find that of all the things in the Sisters army list, the most effective at killing Gargantuan Creatures is actually Penitent Engines... that said, that was under the previous rules when they had insane numbers of attacks instead of a measly three.

The greater daemon lords are definitely a case of kill them if it is easy and ignore them if it is hard. Each of them is a massive amount of points. So many points that you can easily bring more units than they can attack in a game for an equal number of points.

As for how to kill them. That depends entirely on the army. It tends to center around some combination of grav, Str 7+, Str D fleshbane, and reroll to wound.

For example;
*CWE do this extremely efficiently with Str D weapons, warp spiders, doom, and Str 6+ spam.
*Imperial Knights can actually do a pretty good job of it. Especially the knight lance after it gets concussive off against the GMC.
*GK will need a combined approach of banishment and lots of Str7 shots or daemon hammers or halberds+hammer hand, and force. It is not easy for the regular GK but draigo and nemesis dreadknights are both serious threats against daemon lords. Even if all you do is keep them running away for 2-3 turns you have wasted a staggering amount of your opponent's points running away.
*IG I would normally land a bunch of CCS and Vets with plasma near the daemon lord and start putting monster hunter on the units. That or take a lot of earthshaker heavy artillery carriages. Honestly though IG in apoc without super heavies means a 3 turns in 12 hours, so ignore it.

Every codex in the game has the ability to deal with SH and GC units, if you chose to build your army to deal with those units. This is different from the Flyer question, where not all codecii in the game have inherent access to AA options. It's up to the player to be prepared, or the steal a phrase, "more pew pew, less Q Q."

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Every codex in the game has the ability to deal with SH and GC units, if you chose to build your army to deal with those units. This is different from the Flyer question, where not all codecii in the game have inherent access to AA options. It's up to the player to be prepared, or the steal a phrase, "more pew pew, less Q Q."

SJ

Thank you for that totally useless and unhelpful answer. For the record, my team won. I was asking for tactical advice, not L2P jerkitude.

Send in the Grey Knights, I like interceptors and dreadknights for the threat range.
If you have allies, take a few pot shots with grav 1st. The concussive puts that at the same init as the daemon hammers.
You're re-rolling 1's to hit and wound.
Dreadknights are hitting on 4+, Interceptors are hitting on 5+.
With only Force active, you're looking at averaging ~2 wounds from the dreadknight and 1.5 from the interceptor squad (w/4 hammers in a 10 man squad).

If you can get banishment off (hint, everybody gets this power), you're looking at just under 3 wounds from a dreadknight, and 2 from the interceptor squad.

It's not that tough to drop the super daemon in a single volley of grav fire followed by a charge from the grey knights; but you need the grav fire to drop his init, otherwise he does too much damage to you as he strikes well ahead of your attacks.


Another beautiful thing is a combination of Grav/concussive and Blind. Once concussive drops his init to 1, hit him with the blinding attack, and now that 888 point daemon is WS1 BS1 and Init 1. Allied marines peppering him with grav, followed by some eldar swooping hawk fire will do the trick.

Lots and lots and lots of Lascannons?

Anyway you were playing a 12k points Apocalypse game, bitching about super heavies there is pretty low.

As an Armies of the Imperium -player you can deal with them easily. There are numerous builds you can wield that can smash a Knight to bits in a turn and still have a TMC approach.

This used to happen to me all the time when Apoc first came out. I didn't have any super heavies so I always ended up fielding lots of troops, and then removing them in droves once the D pie plates started flying.

I took out Ork Gargants with squads of Fire Dragons. Ran a wraith lord formation into the side of a bane blade.

You can kill super heavies and gargantuan stuff. You just need to have the right tools in the right place.

Is that Terminator formation with TH/SS and a void grenade and no scatter DS still around?

The key is overkill. You can't depend on a lone sergeant or a single AM squad to do damage. You need to devote a large army at times to take a Titan or equivalent down in one turn. Otherwise you need a specialist unit like Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Terminators, Destroyers, etc that has enough heavy weapons to get the job done. Often two or three of them.

As I said, more pew pew, less Q Q.

Most Apoc games see the SHs removed by turn 2, simply due to focusing fire on them. GCs are a slightly different story in that they can last until turn 3 due to stupid levels of survivability (those Emperor-damned Kiju!). Even still, focusing them down will remove them, sooner if you go first, later if you go second.

Have a plan, bring the tools, stay focused. If you are not planning on killing SHs and GCs, you are playing it wrong; please rethink your plan.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
codecii

SJ

Codices is the word you're looking for.

As far as super heavies, the only thing I've faced is a Knight Casitgator, and I owned it with my D-Thirster.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
codecii

SJ

Codices is the word you're looking for.

Codecii is the plural of codex. Codices and codexes are both accepted plurals, but not necessarily more correct.

SJ

My Host of Fire or one of my Hybrid Harlequin list can handle them. I am not too worried.