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Rather than debate the Imperium of Man or the Eldar or the Tau; let's talk about the most explicitly supernatural faction in the setting; the Legions of Chaos invading the Earth, but with multiple scenarios for fun! All of which are designed to be as harrowing for the Earth as possible and to test it to its very limits. We're assuming high end feats for 40k here. So things like 7000 Word bearers being a credible threat to thousands of times their worth in guardsmen is entirely legitimate. The a subset of rounds is what is considered "standard" showings for the Chaos Astartes.
The first:
Minor Black Crusade: Over the years, a sudden new religion starts sweeping through the world, rapidly rising to becoming an up and coming religion (entering the big leagues, comparable to Buddhism); at first seeming innocuous if eccentric. Then all at once, a sudden wave of madness overtakes the cults and they rise up all at once, proclaiming their allegiance tp the dark gods and their chosen prophet to this world; Xargon the Darkbringer, with warp rifts opening all over; a massive force of well over six grand companies worth of chaos space marines lead by the mighty Chaos Terminator Sorceror lord Xargon Zarathustra of the Black Legion, forty million traitor guard and more than eighty million cultists and around twenty million daemons descend from a suddenly emerging space hulk onto the planet to dedicate the world to their dark gods.
A dominion of fire scale campaign: An entire traitor legion with its Daemon Primarch assaults the Earth along with all the assets in traitor guardsmen, mercenaries, and cultists it can muster, with the Arctic and Antarctic areas turning into warp rifts from which daemons can emerge freely from the warp while the powers of chaos start corrupting millions of people into beastmen as the hordes of Chaos get marching with the intent of devastating this entire world.
13th black crusade scale invasion: The entirety of Abaddon's thirteenth black crusade directed at Cadia strikes at the planet with hundreds of thousands of chaos space marines and countless millions of other deranged madmen, xenos mercenaries and chaos worshippers, and a vast army of daemons.
Daemon world: The Earth has now become a Daemon world as someone rises to Daemon Princehood on it. How long does civilization last in the shadow of the dark gods?
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2015/06/02 14:47:16
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Each one of those scenarios is pretty much the same in terms of how much damage happens and how long Earth would last. Since you're saying we take the high end of feats for Marines, Earth would last a matter of days at the very most in all of those situations.
Kain wrote: Rather than debate the Imperium of Man or the Eldar or the Tau; let's talk about the most explicitly supernatural faction in the setting; the Legions of Chaos invading the Earth, but with multiple scenarios for fun! All of which are designed to be as harrowing for the Earth as possible and to test it to its very limits. We're assuming high end feats for 40k here. So things like 7000 Word bearers being a credible threat to thousands of times their worth in guardsmen is entirely legitimate.
The first:
Minor Black Crusade: Over the years, a sudden new religion starts sweeping through the world, rapidly rising to becoming one of the dominant faiths on the planet, at first seeming innocuous if eccentric. Then all at once, a sudden wave of madness overtakes the cults and half the Earth's military turns over to Chaos, with whole countries being devoured by warp rifts as above; a massive force of well over six grand companies worth of chaos space marines lead by a mighty warlord and tens of millions of traitor guard and more than a hundred million cultists descend from a suddenly emerging space hulk onto the planet to dedicate the world to their dark gods.
We all die, one way or another. Either by our own hand, as we purge the planet in nuclear fire, or at the hands of Chaos Daemons and their followers. Six hundred thousand Chaos Space Marines with over a hundred million crazies, along with half the Earth's military, is way beyond anything we could hope to defeat.
A dominion of fire scale campaign: An entire traitor legion with its Daemon Primarch assaults the Earth along with all the assets in traitor guardsmen, mercenaries, and cultists it can muster, with the polar areas turning into warp rifts from which daemons can emerge freely from the warp.
Double Warp Rifts means we're probably more screwed in this case than the above. Daemon Primarch is really just icing on the cake, the rifts are enough, we can't seal them so we die.
Daemon world: The Earth has now become a Daemon world as someone rises to Daemon Princehood on it. How long does civilization last in the shadow of the dark gods?
Depends on how well that Daemon Prince pleases his or her God(s). If it's Dick Cheney, Tzeentch is pleased.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
If we're talking the most exaggerated ends of 40k fiction/capabilities, and supernatural components like Chaos, then earth doesn't stand a chance. You wouldn't even need to involve CSM's necessarily, we're talking an infiltration and destruction on a social, cultural, and economic level by the power of Chaos.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
The problem is that your proposed situations are so utterly overwhelming, Nukes would fly and the world would die.
Half the world's population suddenly supporting chaos and at war with the rest of the planet ...... Nuke level event. Hell, those Chaos countries with Nukes might just fire them anyway for the hell of it, starting a Nuclear war.
Now if you dropped the above part of your first proposed situation, it becomes exceedingly interesting:
Tens of Millions of Traitor guardsmen and a Hundred million armed cultists alone would be a significant problem. We may or may not tactically nuke them depending on their location and concentration. They would gain a lot of ground at first, having landed fully armed, supplied and ready for a fight but after a little while we would mobilize and engage them in a conventional war. Considering we'd have to eliminate them all (damn fanatics) and there are more of them than all of the casualties of WWII... I'd expect it to be a very long and brutal war.
6 Grand companies of Astartes. Now that would be interesting. They'd probably spread across the globe and fight like guerrillas (very hard to root out and defeat but not world-ending). They'd potentially ruin countries that couldn't deal with them but more technologically advanced countries should be able to defend themselves. If they did concentrate, they would give us an exceedingly tempting Nuke target and so I believe they wouldn't group up.
The combination of the Astartes with the Guardsmen and Cultists could be game-over. They'd be fighting us both on the fronts and from within at the same time. We have more numbers BUT their Astartes would focus on Factories, Farms, Leadership and Supply lines whilst the majority of our forces would be busy fighting at the front versus the Guardsmen and Cultists. The Chaos forces (most likely the Astartes) could also capture Nuclear facilities which would change the game - I don't see them keeping them as a deterrent, do you?
To be honest, in a war like that, it would be hard to determine who would win. A very interesting scenario.
-------------------------
You know what's funny?
North Korea would probably weather the storm in the best shape, or last the longest if everyone else fell.
They've been building up defenses for 60 years and the two land borders are extremely hard to cross; Mountains to the North and the Militarized zone to the south.
Any 'cult' religions would be purged before they get off the ground.
A large percentage of their population is trained in the use of weapons and will defend their country.
They've got countless miles of bunkers and tunnels underground, more capable of surviving a Nuclear war than any other country.
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With my proposed modification to your first scenario, I think that this could be a very interesting situation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/30 21:37:58
The outcomes would be similar for every scenario. Possible outcome #1 Earth gets infiltrated and corrupted by Chaos cults, who eventually become powerful enough to take over the planet and Chaos wins without firing a single shot.
Possible outcome #2 One of aforementioned Chaos cults opens a Warp portal and Earth become a deamon world. Chaos wins.
Possible outcome #3 Chaos ships appear in orbit and nuke earth. Chaos wins.
Possible outcome #4 A bunch of Khornate Space Marines feel up for slaughter and descend, taking out world leaders and most important military infrastructure in a surprise assault. Earth, as divided as it is, is now also leaderless and without effective military (unable to get a bearing on the Space Marines and without effective weapons capable of hurting them) Earth becomes the Khornate's personal playground. They have huge fun and brutally slaughter every single person on the planet. Chaos wins.
The problem is that your proposed situations are so utterly overwhelming, Nukes would fly and the world would die.
Half the world's population suddenly supporting chaos and at war with the rest of the planet ...... Nuke level event. Hell, those Chaos countries with Nukes might just fire them anyway for the hell of it, starting a Nuclear war.
Now if you dropped the above part of your first proposed situation, it becomes exceedingly interesting:
Tens of Millions of Traitor guardsmen and a Hundred million armed cultists alone would be a significant problem. We may or may not tactically nuke them depending on their location and concentration. They would gain a lot of ground at first, having landed fully armed, supplied and ready for a fight but after a little while we would mobilize and engage them in a conventional war. Considering we'd have to eliminate them all (damn fanatics) and there are more of them than all of the casualties of WWII... I'd expect it to be a very long and brutal war.
6 Grand companies of Astartes. Now that would be interesting. They'd probably spread across the globe and fight like guerrillas (very hard to root out and defeat but not world-ending). They'd potentially ruin countries that couldn't deal with them but more technologically advanced countries should be able to defend themselves. If they did concentrate, they would give us an exceedingly tempting Nuke target and so I believe they wouldn't group up.
The combination of the Astartes with the Guardsmen and Cultists could be game-over. They'd be fighting us both on the fronts and from within at the same time. We have more numbers BUT their Astartes would focus on Factories, Farms, Leadership and Supply lines whilst the majority of our forces would be busy fighting at the front versus the Guardsmen and Cultists. The Chaos forces (most likely the Astartes) could also capture Nuclear facilities which would change the game - I don't see them keeping them as a deterrent, do you? To be honest, in a war like that, it would be hard to determine who would win. A very interesting scenario.
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You know what's funny? North Korea would probably weather the storm in the best shape, or last the longest if everyone else fell.
They've been building up defenses for 60 years and the two land borders are extremely hard to cross; Mountains to the North and the Militarized zone to the south. Any 'cult' religions would be purged before they get off the ground. A large percentage of their population is trained in the use of weapons and will defend their country. They've got countless miles of bunkers and tunnels underground, more capable of surviving a Nuclear war than any other country.
------------------------
With my proposed modification to your first scenario, I think that this could be a very interesting situation.
Our nukes would be kinda useless, considering the fact that the enemy has much, much more powerful weapons. They would likely only laugh at our primitive tiny nukes and could nuke us long before we could nuke them. Besides, Chaos Space Marines could just deploy from orbit to any place of earth in a matter of minutes, so they could capture all of Earth's nukes before we are even aware that we are under attack.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/30 23:59:20
We completely lack FTL-travel, so no matter how idiotic the leadership of Chaos they would take us over. I mean their basic troopers (demons) are damn hard to harm with AK-47's, so think about them charging our military and cutting them to bits as they try to change ammo. A single Genestealer can convert a population, think about a single Chaos Space Marine. He would be invincible and basically lay regions bare while moving quick as quicksilver. He alone could crown himself king of Earth just like that murdering everyone as he saw fit. We would stand no chance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/31 00:19:02
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
I took Otto's suggestions to heart and made the first scenario not quite as overwhelming, but still the greatest danger to Earth's civilization in a long time.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Even removing "Movie Marines" from the equation (because the most-grounded of in-universe estimations of their ability puts them at worth 10 Army Ranger-level soldiers), the supernatural elements of Chaos would doom our planet.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Chaos starts their invasion in the Middle East. ISUS and Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula being their first victims. From there they target MSNBC Rule 1, motyak
Next Chaos slays all the rioters in Baltimore, Cleveland, and Ferguson that are complaining about "Chaos Brutality". They empty all the prisons of the world converting billions of inmates into mindless servitors. The Obama administration declares Global Warming as a larger threat to U.S. Security than the Chaos invasion. The citizens of the U.S. Suffer accordingly. Chaos laughingly admits later that Obama was actually a Chaos puppet, put in place to weaken and destroy the U.S. from within. The Chaos Warlord states Obama performed above and beyond their expectations.
Chaos embraces the realists of earth welcoming them into their ranks. Israel as a whole is left untouched because Chaos respects their warrior ethos and Chaos wants to avoid sustaining heavy casualties. The rest of the Middle East is converted into a parking lot via orbital bombardment.
Go Chaos!
This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2015/06/06 10:26:35
Khorne: taunt them into charging our lines by subjecting them to witty Terran insults ("chicken," etc). While they're charging over open ground waving chainaxes, carpet bomb them. Tell them this is a traditional test of martial prowess and anyone who daren't run through the bombs is a wimp. Tzeentch: pfft, do they seriously think they can out-manipulate Earth's politicians? Slaanesh: distract them first by showing them the internet. Nurgle: penicillin.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/05/31 20:05:14
Driven away from WH40K by rules bloat and the expense of keeping up, now interested in smaller model count games and anything with nifty mechanics.
Fezman wrote: Khorne: taunt them into charging our lines by subjecting them to witty Terran insults ("chicken," etc). While they're charging over open ground waving chainaxes, carpet bomb them. Tell them this is a traditional test of martial prowess and anyone who daren't run through the bombs is a wimp.
Tzeentch: pfft, do they seriously think they can out-manipulate Earth's politicians?
Slaanesh: distract them first by showing them the internet.
Nurgle: penicillin.
I like the way you think.
Slaanesh and the internet made me laugh Hell, if you just left them with the internet, they'd probably all die of exhaustion eventually.
Kain wrote: Minor Black Crusade: Over the years, a sudden new religion starts sweeping through the world, rapidly rising to becoming one of the dominant faiths on the planet, at first seeming innocuous if eccentric. Then all at once, a sudden wave of madness overtakes the cults and they rise up all at once, proclaiming their allegiance tp the dark gods and their chosen prophet to this world; Xargon the Black, with warp rifts opening all over,; a massive force of well over six grand companies worth of chaos space marines lead by the mighty Chaos Terminator Sorceror lord Xargon, eighty five million traitor guard and more than three hundred and twenty million cultists descend from a suddenly emerging space hulk onto the planet to dedicate the world to their dark gods.
The current military strength of the world is only 15-20 million. 85 million traitor guard and 320 million cultists would walk over the world in a matter of days. The 6 grand companies of space marines could just sit in orbit and watch.
Put another way, there would be more traitor guardsmen than earth soldiers and police combined. 320 million cultists would be I armed crazy for every 20 people on the globe.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
Kain wrote: Minor Black Crusade: Over the years, a sudden new religion starts sweeping through the world, rapidly rising to becoming one of the dominant faiths on the planet, at first seeming innocuous if eccentric. Then all at once, a sudden wave of madness overtakes the cults and they rise up all at once, proclaiming their allegiance tp the dark gods and their chosen prophet to this world; Xargon the Black, with warp rifts opening all over,; a massive force of well over six grand companies worth of chaos space marines lead by the mighty Chaos Terminator Sorceror lord Xargon, eighty five million traitor guard and more than three hundred and twenty million cultists descend from a suddenly emerging space hulk onto the planet to dedicate the world to their dark gods.
The current military strength of the world is only 15-20 million. 85 million traitor guard and 320 million cultists would walk over the world in a matter of days. The 6 grand companies of space marines could just sit in orbit and watch.
Put another way, there would be more traitor guardsmen than earth soldiers and police combined. 320 million cultists would be I armed crazy for every 20 people on the globe.
Yeah, Kain increased the numbers in that situation... again to overwhelming quantities. When I made my original post in this thread it was reasonable.
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Regiment Planet: Schrott Specialization: Salvaged, Heavily Modified, and/or Experimental Mechanized Units. "SIR! Are you sure this will work!?"
"I HAVE NO IDEA, PULL THE TRIGGER!!!" 91st comms chatter.
Kain wrote: Minor Black Crusade: Over the years, a sudden new religion starts sweeping through the world, rapidly rising to becoming one of the dominant faiths on the planet, at first seeming innocuous if eccentric. Then all at once, a sudden wave of madness overtakes the cults and they rise up all at once, proclaiming their allegiance tp the dark gods and their chosen prophet to this world; Xargon the Black, with warp rifts opening all over,; a massive force of well over six grand companies worth of chaos space marines lead by the mighty Chaos Terminator Sorceror lord Xargon, eighty five million traitor guard and more than three hundred and twenty million cultists descend from a suddenly emerging space hulk onto the planet to dedicate the world to their dark gods.
The current military strength of the world is only 15-20 million. 85 million traitor guard and 320 million cultists would walk over the world in a matter of days. The 6 grand companies of space marines could just sit in orbit and watch.
Put another way, there would be more traitor guardsmen than earth soldiers and police combined. 320 million cultists would be I armed crazy for every 20 people on the globe.
Yeah, Kain increased the numbers in that situation... again to overwhelming quantities. When I made my original post in this thread it was reasonable.
It was always "tens of millions" and "hundreds of millions" I just specified how many tens and hundreds.
Would halving it make it better?
There's supposed to be more traitor guardsmen than our soldiers by a fair margin and substantially more cultists than guardsmen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/02 10:11:19
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
There's a limit to the numerical advantage you can give to one side before its victory is certain. There are empirical laws and mathematical models that let you estimate losses taken and dealt according to the respective size of the forces involved in the conflict. They all compare the square of the numerical size of the armies, so even small differences are magnified. If you start with numbers as high as 320 millions of cultists, the question becomes meaningless: our military loses badly in a matter of days.
Psychopski wrote: Chaos starts their invasion in the Middle East. ISUS and Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula being their first victims. From there they target MSNBC along with all the other liberal idiots of the world because Chaos knows liberals are worthless and weak.
Next Chaos slays all the rioters in Baltimore, Cleveland, and Ferguson that are complaining about "Chaos Brutality". They empty all the prisons of the world converting billions of inmates into mindless servitors. The Obama administration declares Global Warming as a larger threat to U.S. Security than the Chaos invasion. The citizens of the U.S. Suffer accordingly. Chaos laughingly admits later that Obama was actually a Chaos puppet, put in place to weaken and destroy the U.S. from within. The Chaos Warlord states Obama performed above and beyond their expectations.
Chaos embraces the realists of earth welcoming them into their ranks. Israel as a whole is left untouched because Chaos respects their warrior ethos and Chaos wants to avoid sustaining heavy casualties. The rest of the Middle East is converted into a parking lot via orbital bombardment.
Go Chaos!
Oh wow. I didn't expect a discussion on how badly we'd do against Chaos to Rule 1, motyak
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/06 10:26:58
The Kasrkin were just men. It made their actions all the more astonishing. Six white blurs, they fell upon the cultists, lasguns barking at close range. They wasted no shots. One shot, one kill. - Eisenhorn: Malleus
You know what, I'll bite. Only the first setting is remotely plausible that we could "win," if you exclude the part where the Chaos cults convert half the population to their cause. So, the modified scenario is that the combined Chaos army simply entered our planet at a single point (without a battle fleet). People shouldn't underestimate the number of armed people on the planet. While it is true our enlisted military forces would be horribly outnumbered, there are millions of hunters, veterans of the armed forces, gun enthusiasts, and gang members that are probably all better skilled at using a gun than all the cultists and probably a fair number of the traitor legions. Not to mention, the incredible number of arms that have already been produced and are sitting in stores and warehouses throughout the planet means that Earth could press countless millions more into makeshift militia. Our planet would still significantly outnumber the enemy, and the 40k lore is absolutely packed with the notion that quantity generally wins over quality in a protracted conflict.
As I see it, there are two primary reasons that Chaos would likely still win eventually. 1) Nurgle above all other Chaos influences would likely doom the planet before the war made it out of its first year. Lacking the genetic modifications or technology that most 40k factions can implement means that pandemics would likely collapse human populations across the globe. It should be mentioned here as well that the pure terror factor of literal demons - think of all the people across the globe that would interpret this as the Apocalypse and simply give up assuming it is part of God's will - would be an incredible morale killer. The mutating, cancerous effects of radiation resulting from nuclear attacks would probably only benefit the Chaos forces in the long run.
2) We can't assume our weapons would be particularly effective against the Chaos marines' vehicles and armor that is made out of completely unknown alloys - ceramite and adamantium - that may prove nigh invulnerable to our conventional weapons.
So...if we got lucky and demonic elements for whatever reason could not create effective plagues, etc., I think Earthy could optimistically last a few decades if world leaders responded rapidly enough in mobilizing society for a type of total war never imagined. The planet is big enough that it would take time for the Chaos forces to spread out without becoming overextended and incredibly outnumbered.
Active armies, still collecting and painting First and greatest love - Orks, Orks, and more Orks largest pile of shame, so many tanks unassembled most complete and painted beautiful models, couldn't resist the swarm will consume all
Armies in disrepair: nothing new since 5th edition oh how I want to revive, but mostly old fantasy demons and some glorious Soul Grinders in need of love
We are dead, however. If its only traitor guard and cultist ,(with little deamon aid) a few tactical nukes would reduce their numbers dramatically. I feel people are underestimating the power of nuclear weaponry... But demons coming through warp gates? Yah. You better pray god is real at that point....
raiden wrote: We are dead, however. If its only traitor guard and cultist ,(with little deamon aid) a few tactical nukes would reduce their numbers dramatically. I feel people are underestimating the power of nuclear weaponry... But demons coming through warp gates? Yah. You better pray god is real at that point....
Nuclear weaponry? Nothing compared to vortex missiles. Their weapons are even more powerful than ours. Besides, the problem with tactical nukes is that you need to use them on large concentrations of enemy targets to be effective. The first problem there is making sure you find such a concentration, and that the enemy troops stay in the exact same spot while the missile is launched and travels to its destination. Therefore it is already much less useful against mobile troops. Also, because they come from orbit, the renegade force would be able to pick out targets and choose battles at its leisure. They could deploy everywhere on the planet in a matter of minutes, so they could track down and take out most of our nukes before we could launch them.
raiden wrote: We are dead, however. If its only traitor guard and cultist ,(with little deamon aid) a few tactical nukes would reduce their numbers dramatically. I feel people are underestimating the power of nuclear weaponry... But demons coming through warp gates? Yah. You better pray god is real at that point....
Depends on where they are
400 million invading chaotic humans are not going to be in one place lined up for a tactical nuke.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
Knowing how humans are... we are dead. We would spend the first six month blaming each other before we unite against anything.
Knowing what I know now, about chaos. I'd spend all my money on cocain, call my best and most goodlooking friends, (You know what follows). Have them over, then do drugs until we run out, then blow our brains out. Got no intention of being a chaos-slave or daemon-food.
....then again, cocain and drugs sounds a bit slaanesh I guess. Perhaps join what you cannot defeat?
Does earth get chuck norris?
How much blood will be spilt for the blood god?
What will doomrider do?
Is this mini black crusade lead by failbaddon?
Was failbaddon previously CREED!ed?
Psychopski wrote: Chaos starts their invasion in the Middle East. ISUS and Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula being their first victims. From there they target MSNBC Rule 1, motyak
Next Chaos slays all the rioters in Baltimore, Cleveland, and Ferguson that are complaining about "Chaos Brutality". They empty all the prisons of the world converting billions of inmates into mindless servitors. The Obama administration declares Global Warming as a larger threat to U.S. Security than the Chaos invasion. The citizens of the U.S. Suffer accordingly. Chaos laughingly admits later that Obama was actually a Chaos puppet, put in place to weaken and destroy the U.S. from within. The Chaos Warlord states Obama performed above and beyond their expectations.
Chaos embraces the realists of earth welcoming them into their ranks. Israel as a whole is left untouched because Chaos respects their warrior ethos and Chaos wants to avoid sustaining heavy casualties. The rest of the Middle East is converted into a parking lot via orbital bombardment.
Go Chaos!
Oh wow. I didn't expect a discussion on how badly we'd do against Chaos to elicit Rule 1, motyak
Chaos incursion?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/06 10:28:37
First and greatest love - Orks, Orks, and more Orks 
largest pile of shame, so many tanks unassembled 
most complete and painted 
oh how I want to revive, but mostly old fantasy demons and some glorious Soul Grinders 
in need of love 
