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So with the new SM codex allowing you to kit your Devastators out with Grav Cannons & Grav amps for +35 points, how do they compare to the currently existing Grav Centurions, provided these guys dont get their points cost changed?

Approx. 30 points costlier than a Gravastator, the Grav Centurion comes with +1 wound, +1 toughness, +1 to the armor save and the ability to move and shoot and assault, though he loses the ability to run or fire overwatch. Oh and he comes with the TL-Hurricane Bolter as secondary and the ability to fire both weapons. Does all of this make him worth the 30 extra points? Or is the Gravastator the better deal? Also remember that rumors say the Devastators have an ability where they can re-roll all failed hits once per game. In combination with Grav Cannons that is huge.

Grav cannons just don't have the range to be very useful on devastators who lack relentless.

I would think that the extra durability would be worth it, so GravCents would still be better. It would probably depend on the rest of the army. Unless they raise the cost of Centurions, GravStars are probably here to stay.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I would think that the extra durability would be worth it, so GravCents would still be better. It would probably depend on the rest of the army. Unless they raise the cost of Centurions, GravStars are probably here to stay.

Devastators can show up with 5 ablative wounds, and a sarg with gear. Anchored in cover, I think the devs will be harder to shift.
We'll have to see what comes out of chapter tactics. If they can get a 1/game relentless, that might be all the moving you need to do.

-Matt

Since they're salvo 3/5, if you move your devastators you'll still be getting 60% of the firepower at 12". A devastator squad with 4 gravcannons is 84% of the price, and has 80% of the firepower at half range when moving, or 133% of the firepower standing still. Seems like a poor buy to me, especially when you take into account how much more survivable a squad of cents is.

It depends if you are running a Demi list. you can get a single turn of Relentless. Also if you are a dirty smurf.

They can drop in via drop pod and REALLY feth up some ones day.

The problem i have with that is that they are now really close to the enemy :/

 Sir Arun wrote:
So with the new SM codex allowing you to kit your Devastators out with Grav Cannons & Grav amps for +35 points, how do they compare to the currently existing Grav Centurions, provided these guys dont get their points cost changed?

Approx. 30 points costlier than a Gravastator, the Grav Centurion comes with +1 wound, +1 toughness, +1 to the armor save and the ability to move and shoot and assault, though he loses the ability to run or fire overwatch. Oh and he comes with the TL-Hurricane Bolter as secondary and the ability to fire both weapons. Does all of this make him worth the 30 extra points? Or is the Gravastator the better deal? Also remember that rumors say the Devastators have an ability where they can re-roll all failed hits once per game. In combination with Grav Cannons that is huge.

Also Cents have easy access to split fire. Really important when you are talking about 15-20 grav shots. You dont want them all going against 3 scatter bikes.

I think for Gravstar you are going to have centurians because of the ability to move and fire all the time, split fire and the durability.

I think Grav devs are going to be useful in pod lists and when you are using a formation that gives you devs. Otherwise I just cannot see them being able to stay in range. They stand still and shoot 24" or they move and shoot 12(18" threat). Cents can threaten 30", a much larger bubble.

Does arriving via pod count as moving for the purpose of Salvo and heavy weapons?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Does arriving via pod count as moving for the purpose of Salvo and heavy weapons?

Yes it does.

You will need to blow your Doctrine load for relentless devs. or use star phantoms.

Yea then devs would still have the same problems Devs always had

Good weapons on a non relentless platform.

I'd stick with centurions if I was doing marines.

If you're German, the DevCents are definitely better. 240 points for three, with an option to add split fire for another ten, and the hurricanes to deal with low save units, and with better armour and toughness than five Devs with four Gravs for 210 points.

If you're French, however, those Devs are only 150 points, and with Ultramarine CT you can drop down with pods and unleash le 'ell on the cheap.

If you're English, well, then it remains to be seen.

Devs should stick with the standard ML or LC, I'd go with the ML for the cost especially now you have abilities to give them sky fire

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Devs should stick with the standard ML or LC, I'd go with the ML for the cost especially now you have abilities to give them sky fire

did the price for ML pop up yet?

If the rumors are all true the grav devs with the upgrade to allow reroll to hit once per game in a drop pod will be amazingly powerful. The difference in price means you can take 3 of these for less than 2 grav dev cents.

The reroll to hit from Doctrines and rumors willing squad upgrades combined with the extra grav dev you get plus the drop pod means that the grav devs will always be in range and deal more hits even firing 3 shots than the grav cents do for an equal pts...plus the grav cents are more expensive even without a drop pod (which you will need if you want them to be effective).

Depends on what you're looking for out of them really, as in my mind they serve 2 different purposes. If you are choosing between a single squad of Cents or a single squad of Devs, the Cents will win out almost every time. But I don't see Grav Devs being used in that way.

I see them as taking 2 or 3 squads of them (or more in you are running multiple Demi Companies) in pods with 4 Grav each. Drop them in turn 1 behind the enemy. You'll be close enough that the reduced range from salvo won't matter, and you will still have 36 shots when you come in, that can be put into up to 3 separate targets. And then after your alpha strike from them, your opponent HAS to deal with them, no army can handle 12 Grav Cannons running around in their back lines. Not to mention that 3 five man Dev squads with 4 Grav in pods (especially in the Full Company with free pods) is not so costly that all your eggs are in those 3 units, you will still have the points to have other killers in your list should the Devs fail or die.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:
no army can handle 12 Grav Cannons running around in their back lines.

COughcoughdaemonscough.

Its also very ineffective against things like IG. Grav Cents at least have chest missiles or bolters.

Depending on how it goes i almost want to just have tacticals with grav cannons in rhinos creating a threat range. while a renta pod with centurions do the backfield work.

 Desubot wrote:

 GI_Redshirt wrote:
no army can handle 12 Grav Cannons running around in their back lines.

COughcoughdaemonscough.

Its also very ineffective against things like IG. Grav Cents at least have chest missiles or bolters.

Depending on how it goes i almost want to just have tacticals with grav cannons in rhinos creating a threat range. while a renta pod with centurions do the backfield work.

Yep thats why it can be a complete expensive point sink to run GravDevs against certain armies(Orks, Daemons, IG), too much rock paper scissors.

I believe ML are still the same price. Best would be 2 squads in the back with that new LR nearby if you need them to take out some flyers or some other important target, the chapter doctrines and the chubb makes Dev kinda good again.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Yep thats why it can be a complete expensive point sink to run GravDevs against certain armies(Orks, Daemons, IG), too much rock paper scissors.

I here this a lot but it often is not true at all. When you get to reroll wounds there is very few targets that the weapon is actually bad against.

Against any vehicle the grav devs will average 3 glances which are all immobilized results...so even a landraider is dead in a single turn. Most IG lists will bring either some vehicles or at least flyers (1 hp and immobilized on average). Even if no vehicles are present grav cents average 6 wounds against Sv5+. Which means artillery units can take a pretty decent number of wounds if nothing else.

Most of the best Ork units have a 4+ armour save (warbikes, deffkopters) or are vehicles. Against Sv4+ grav devs will put out 8 wounds on the drop. Entirely decent actually, ironically better damage than heavy bolters would do and they can fire from DSing drop pods.

Daemons are the only army that is hard to talk about. If the opponent doesn't take a 3+ save daemon princes, AV13 walkers, or units with Toughness 7+ then yeah grav is pretty bad. Even then it still should average 3 wounds a volley from DS which against some daemon targets is pretty decent but against most is pretty bad. This is why I think you will see a lot of 2 grav devs in drop pods as a common element in a lot of lists. This gives you enough firepower to kill 2 wraithknights in a single turn but keeps the pts investment down to ~500 pts which leaves plenty for TAC squads or scouts which are both good against poor armour save units.

 ansacs wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Yep thats why it can be a complete expensive point sink to run GravDevs against certain armies(Orks, Daemons, IG), too much rock paper scissors.

I here this a lot but it often is not true at all. When you get to reroll wounds there is very few targets that the weapon is actually bad against.

Against any vehicle the grav devs will average 3 glances which are all immobilized results...so even a landraider is dead in a single turn. Most IG lists will bring either some vehicles or at least flyers (1 hp and immobilized on average). Even if no vehicles are present grav cents average 6 wounds against Sv5+. Which means artillery units can take a pretty decent number of wounds if nothing else.

Most of the best Ork units have a 4+ armour save (warbikes, deffkopters) or are vehicles. Against Sv4+ grav devs will put out 8 wounds on the drop. Entirely decent actually, ironically better damage than heavy bolters would do and they can fire from DSing drop pods.

Daemons are the only army that is hard to talk about. If the opponent doesn't take a 3+ save daemon princes, AV13 walkers, or units with Toughness 7+ then yeah grav is pretty bad. Even then it still should average 3 wounds a volley from DS which against some daemon targets is pretty decent but against most is pretty bad. This is why I think you will see a lot of 2 grav devs in drop pods as a common element in a lot of lists. This gives you enough firepower to kill 2 wraithknights in a single turn but keeps the pts investment down to ~500 pts which leaves plenty for TAC squads or scouts which are both good against poor armour save units.

Ja Its definitely going to have bad match ups so you really shouldn't be building an entire gimmick out of it. Its kinda why i prefer Cents as 1 i have em already and 2 they at least have secondaries that are useful.

 ansacs wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Yep thats why it can be a complete expensive point sink to run GravDevs against certain armies(Orks, Daemons, IG), too much rock paper scissors.

I here this a lot but it often is not true at all. When you get to reroll wounds there is very few targets that the weapon is actually bad against.

Against any vehicle the grav devs will average 3 glances which are all immobilized results...so even a landraider is dead in a single turn. Most IG lists will bring either some vehicles or at least flyers (1 hp and immobilized on average). Even if no vehicles are present grav cents average 6 wounds against Sv5+. Which means artillery units can take a pretty decent number of wounds if nothing else.

Most of the best Ork units have a 4+ armour save (warbikes, deffkopters) or are vehicles. Against Sv4+ grav devs will put out 8 wounds on the drop. Entirely decent actually, ironically better damage than heavy bolters would do and they can fire from DSing drop pods.

Daemons are the only army that is hard to talk about. If the opponent doesn't take a 3+ save daemon princes, AV13 walkers, or units with Toughness 7+ then yeah grav is pretty bad. Even then it still should average 3 wounds a volley from DS which against some daemon targets is pretty decent but against most is pretty bad. This is why I think you will see a lot of 2 grav devs in drop pods as a common element in a lot of lists. This gives you enough firepower to kill 2 wraithknights in a single turn but keeps the pts investment down to ~500 pts which leaves plenty for TAC squads or scouts which are both good against poor armour save units.

Check your math... A unit of GravDev comes in on drop pod will have 12 grav shots total, even with re-rolls it will deal only 1.72 hull points to a vehicle and 3.4 wounds to Sv5 and 6.8 to Sv4(before any cover or invuln saves). Thats just not enough damage output for the cost of the unit.

Not many good IG lists in GTs anymore(mechguard is not that viable anymore), but you'll still see some guy bringing fearless guard blobs with different gimmicks to give them FNP and/or a invuln save. 3-7 dead guardsman in a blob is nothing...

Top GT Ork lists usually include war bikers(jink), tankbustas spam in gun trukks, and green tide and some KFF.

I highly doubt Drop podded GravDevs will make their points back against certain armies, they will likely die the next turn. At least CentStars are more resilient with invisibility and gating to avoid being tar pitted. Look if grav cannon has 36-48" range and doesn't cost 35 pts each for a Dev squad, then yes I might see it as a decent choice.

In the 6th ed codex the dev tactic didnt work if you were disembarking from a transport, read as getting outta yer pod. Did they change that?

SonsofVulkan wrote:Check your math... A unit of GravDev comes in on drop pod will have 12 grav shots total, even with re-rolls it will deal only 1.72 hull points to a vehicle and 3.4 wounds to Sv5 and 6.8 to Sv4(before any cover or invuln saves). Thats just not enough damage output for the cost of the unit.

You forgot grav amps. That is reroll to wound and armour pens.

SonsofVulkan wrote:Not many good IG lists in GTs anymore(mechguard is not that viable anymore), but you'll still see some guy bringing fearless guard blobs with different gimmicks to give them FNP and/or a invuln save. 3-7 dead guardsman in a blob is nothing...

Blobbs are nothing. The most powerful IG lists I have seen are drop pod vets, Pask Punisher, and Forgeworld Artillery units. Frankly any IG list without allies to score or one of the above I am fine with having 500 pts of grav devs that are sub optimal. Remember that if you take a unit or two of drop pod grav cents you can take TFCs and a bunch of bolter scouts without having to wonder how you deal with wraithknights and riptides. This is a "specialist" unit which is actually good at killing most units in the game.

SonsofVulkan wrote:Top GT Ork lists usually include war bikers(jink), tankbustas spam in gun trukks, and green tide and some KFF.

Grav devs apparently come with a -1 cover save to units within 12" now. I have seen 2 lists that have placed well in GTs. Green tide using 9 void shields to protect it and warbikers + tankbusters in trukks. The grav devs are not ideal against these but they are not bad either. The units can come down and remove most of the void shields for the first and will still kill most of a warbiker unit on the drop. I wouldn't recommend 3+ of the grav dev units but a balanced list with 1-2 of these units is going to be brutal. This is because you can get more grav + a TFC for about the same cost as you would have otherwise spent on plasma or other anti vehicle/MC/GMC alone.

SonsofVulkan wrote:I highly doubt Drop podded GravDevs will make their points back against certain armies, they will likely die the next turn. At least CentStars are more resilient with invisibility and gating to avoid being tar pitted. Look if grav cannon has 36-48" range and doesn't cost 35 pts each for a Dev squad, then yes I might see it as a decent choice.

You are talking about a ~900 pts unit with grav cents that sometimes doesn't function up to snuff due to bad rolling. I am talking about a almost guaranteed removal of 2 high priority targets turn 1 for 500 pts or less (~250 pts per unit and there are several rumors that put the cost at less than 200 pts per unit). This means I can pack at least 1 TFC and a fire raptor in addition to these devs in drop pods and I don't even have to consider whether I go first or second so I can get invisibility up. Neither play style is necessarily wrong but they are completely different in approach. ie MSU vs deathstar.

36-48" range would be crazy broken. Especially with the doctrines, wargear options, etc.

I have not been keeping up with the new SM rumors, because I don't really care.

I mainly play 1850 games at my FLGS, so I would be obliged to take the centurions.

You have the versatility of the secondary weapon and access to split fire.

Also, T5 and 2+ is pretty great, because everytime you take a wound, you don't lose a grav cannon, and the centurions are always relentless.

And sticking them in cover, they are almost unkillable

Oops ok including the grab amps re-rolling failed 6s and 5s will still add only a small fraction of hp/wounds to my #s. Again after various cover/invuln saves that number will be even smaller. I stand by my previous comment... Your numbers are still off by a lot and it's still too Rock Paper Scissors with gravdev. Atleast gravcents has other means to deal with those threats and so does grav bikes(command squad).

250 pts is too much for a one shot wonder suicide squad. A 55 pt scout squad can tar pit it for a long time

This just in from natfka:

-Grav Cannon with amp is NOT 7 but 4 melta bombs.

Jesus H Christ now things are looking VERY different.

45 point difference between Grav Dev and Grav Cent

Think they're gona be viable with a drop pod. Especially with UM tactix. About grav devs being point ineffective against certain foes, it's not exactly dev's ptroblem. Grav cents even with hurricane bolters are still point ineffective against hordes. Yes, they can do a bunch of wounds but thy're still not paying off. The solution is simple. Don't spam. Get a bit of everything.

You want split fire?
No problem, 10 marines with 4 amps.
Disembark from the drop pod and combat squad.
You've got ~6 to 12 bolter shots as well, and unlike centurions, you can overwatch; with ~20 grav shots and 12 bolter shots.

I don't think the Grav star is going anywhere, but I also think that the grav pod will be a thing. It's just so good for how cheap it is.

I could also see a full dev squad with 2 gravcannons and 3 bolters in the rhino, with 2 lascannons and 3 bolters left behind in cover.

 Sir Arun wrote:
This just in from natfka:

-Grav Cannon with amp is NOT 7 but 4 melta bombs.

Jesus H Christ now things are looking VERY different.

45 point difference between Grav Dev and Grav Cent

No. There are pics from the English codex up and Grav Cannon/Amp is 35 pts for Devastators.

Did you really trust naftka????


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Think they're gona be viable with a drop pod. Especially with UM tactix. About grav devs being point ineffective against certain foes, it's not exactly dev's ptroblem. Grav cents even with hurricane bolters are still point ineffective against hordes. Yes, they can do a bunch of wounds but thy're still not paying off. The solution is simple. Don't spam. Get a bit of everything.

As usual, words of wisdom from koooaei.

Grav Devs may well be the optimal choice,
For a company of ultramarines,
Their drop pods are free so we should rejoice,
Plus rerolls to hit are now in their genes.

A dedicated drop pod cents may have,
Which would clearly push them into the lead,
Along with their greater volume of grav,
They would be terrifying strong indeed.

If drop pods are available for cents,
Then they will outshine devastator squads,
If they must pay for orbital descents,
Devastators will win with their free pods.

Devastators do more damage when still,
Their lack of relentless a bitter pill.

 Desubot wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Devs should stick with the standard ML or LC, I'd go with the ML for the cost especially now you have abilities to give them sky fire

did the price for ML pop up yet?

Yes they did. They are the same price as the previous codex. Flakk Missiles are unchanged as well. Zero price reduction and zero reason to take Flakk Missiles.