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Genuinely curious if it could be beat by something. Not just another marine list with the same rules.

1 captain

1 chaplain

6 TAC squads

2 dev squads

2 assault squads

10 free razorbacks (options besides heavy bolter you have to pay for)

leaves you around 800 points for more additions and weapon upgrades

all 20 of these units have objective secured.

you can take another cad, and the troops would also have objective secured. along with their dedicated transports.

Now I understand that this is GW's new thing to get people to buy models, pay to win. They are banking on not every marine player having say....10 transports. But now they will be free! and unlike the skitarii/admech combined formation, every one of the free points is guaranteed good and useful, where as the previous example you will probably only benefit from 1/2 to 2/3 of them on any given game. 550 points of free razorbacks, with EVERYTHING having objective secured is HUGE. Heck make those tac squads 10 man, upgrade all the weapons around, and you have 16 obsec units in one formation.

Assuming they make it a priority to sit on objectives, how would you beat this? I dont know that there is enough meelee/firepower in the game to stop that strategy.

If you were playing in an actual tournament, and knew you had a high chance of running into at least a few of these types of lists, how could you possibly prepare for them, much less flyrant spam, full knight/armord company lists, horde armies, ect...

why kill the TAC style of play. Nobody likes to list tailor, but I could not even think of one thing my orks could do in this situation that would not be auto loss. even a green tide can only multi charge so many things a game.

I'd play chaos. I'd win on cool factor.

wait 24 hours and recompute? (New SM Codex)

Well let's see, realistically you'd probably need about ~80 points to kit out the tacs, ~50 for Devastators weapon options, ~100-120 to get the razorbacks into "not heavy bolter" territory. Naked captains and chaplains that can't be in the transports? Icky. Probably want to give them someone to roll with yeah?

Tbh I think you'd probably find you'd get little to nothing else in that list making it usable. Maybe a bare bones second cad.

It doesn't scare me. Razorbacks are little threat to heavy armor even with las, and you don't have any real anti-infantry capability with minimum sized TAC squads.

Swamp it with Guardsmen. You'll either run out of ammo or drown in the blood of the martyrs.

5 Knights could probably beat that list. As soon as the Razorbacks are blown, the Space Marines become sitting ducks, with the Knights potentially destroying more than 1 unit per turn.

Yes, it's a strong formation - especially because of Objective Secured - but it does fit with the game's new direction, and just like with Necrons and Eldar, at least that list is very fluffy!

An MSU Ork list tends to win Objective games very well since they are a horde army.

Any list with plenty of long-range anti-armor on a board with 33% terrain coverage (by area) and featuring at least one piece of impassible terrain.

Your little parking lot either:
A. Immobilizes key units on terrain
B. Turns into a massive traffic jam
C. Is shot to pieces due to light vehicle armor
D. Some combination of the above

All the free transports do it turn the game into an easy version of whack-a-mole, but with METAHL BAWKSES.

I think 4 wraithknights could take it on. I have an 1850 list with a naked vyper, 1 jetseer and jetlock with 12 scatterbikes and 4 wraithknights (with star cannons on both shoulders). Star cannons eat centurions while D weapons and scatter lasers pop tanks. More star cannons to kill squishy marines inside their metal death traps and assault with wraithknights to finish off anything that lived. Unless the marines are getting some good cover the star cannons are gunna eat them especially if the wraithknights are getting guided.

You're doing it wrong, you should go all in with this tactic and use 2 companies! Without any upgrades you could get a company with 880 pts, doubling that leaves you 90 pts to choose a command squad for one of your HQs. At 1760 points you have 20 free razorbacks on the board, sounds pretty balanced to me.

More transports... My Khorne Berzerkers will be so happy to see that...

So you're telling me all I have to do is shift MEQs off objectives?
Y'know, that would be difficult if not for:
Leman Russes
Chaos God Elites
Basilisks
Wyverns
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Imperial Knights
Hordes (Who also have OBSEC)
Fliers
FMC
Dakka 'fexes
Heldrake
Necrons (Who have OBSEC and 4+ Reanimate)
Sternguard

To name a few off the top of my head.

Besides, you've taken over 60+ MEQs with Bolters.
Pretty sure the Demi Company requires full squads of tacts. So you've spent ~1350. Leaving you pretty much nothing to upgrade with. Fully kitting out tacts and devs will cost another ~500. Leaving you with bare Assault squads, minimal dev squads, heavy bolter razors (ooh scary), bare bones HQs.
No Fliers. No "big guns". Pretty much a whole bunch of nothing that will sit there and get pasted while hiding behind AV11 and plinking away with Bolters.

Unless your gibbets have ObSec, I don't think anyone needs to worry.

Izural wrote:

Unless your gibbets have ObSec, I don't think anyone needs to worry.

I think they do.

Here's the thing, have you ever wondered why no-one plays with 6 Tact Squads, 3 Sternguard squads + the Character who makes sternies ObSec?

Because it's bloody rubbish that why!

Your "free" transports are paid for by being forced to waste points on assault squads, devastators and a chaplain. There is nothing "free" about them. Yes, you now have a wealth of AV11 but have severely gimped your entire army for it.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
You're doing it wrong, you should go all in with this tactic and use 2 companies! Without any upgrades you could get a company with 880 pts, doubling that leaves you 90 pts to choose a command squad for one of your HQs. At 1760 points you have 20 free razorbacks on the board, sounds pretty balanced to me.

Actually, according to the screenshots of the English version, the Demi-companies have to be combined in a gladius strike force for the benefit. Assuming you're not at a tourney that disallows duplicate detachments, you could take two, but each gladius requires 1+ auxiliaries, making it take a bit more than 1850. At the very least, you'd need 2 land speeders and 2 whirlwinds added in.

At 1850, you can take 5 Obsec imperial knights; and grav guns, which seems to be everyone's default SM heavy weapon with the rumors do nothing to those guys. I also think bike heavy Eldar would wipe the table with them.

I think that's GW next move, to completely remove army lists and replace them with detachments. There will be no more buying individual squads or characters, you must use the entire detachment.

Hmmm, to use this detachment I need 20 tanks. Better go hit my local store and pick up 10 more boxes...

Give all those razorbacks outflank with ravenguard/raptor chapter tactics, make some of them razorback infernus' for 10pts more than a HB. Now you have multiple outflanking multimeltas. Still not quite an inquisition psyback, but it comes with marines rather than acolytes.

Eldar could beat that easily. Heavy weapon jetbikes squads can pop a RB per squad per turn. Distort Cannon platforms can erase one a turn as well. WKs can erase two per turn potentially.

I wonder if a better plan would be to take 10 drop pods and drop them on top of objectives across the board. This forces your opponent to waste fire power on the pods in order to claim their own objectives and provides you a great deal of cover (as well puts you rapid fire range). It would require the MSUs to be better equipped, but the points spent to upgrade the RBs could be put towards upgrading the units themselves.

My war walkers can pretty reliably battle focus behind terrain after hitting you with some combination of scatter lasers, star cannons, and bright lances, so I feel like they'll whittle down a good chunk of your vehicles pretty quickly. My night spinner never has to expose itself at all. It's not doing reliable damage, but you'll probably be somewhat bunched together with all those tanks meaning I can hit several of them at a time. My farseer(s) can potentially frazzle you with apocolyptic haywire templates before hopping back behind cover.

Unless you take lascannons on multiple vehicles (or load up the devs with them), you'll very possible have trouble dealing with anything AV13+ (like imperial knights). A vindicator would probably be able to approach your army relatively safely from an angle (with some sort of long-ranged support like a thunderfire silencing the devastators' potential retalliation). Assuming you're bunched up, it'll do some serious damage to multiple tanks/marine squad pretty quickly. The thunderfires can also just sit behind cover and whittle you away with indirect barrage fire all game.

Hmm. Wraithway bomb d-scythes could probably kill off a few rhinos at once with a little clever positioning and battle focus. If you don't mind suicide running your eldar, you can potentially have swooping hawks multi-assaulting a bunch of those tanks turn 1 (turn 2 at the latest) with their haywire grenades. Three squads of 10 hawks is about 600 points, gives you 30 haywire assault attacks (after lobbing a haywire at poentially BS 5 or 6 from each squad in the shooting phase), and can reliably move+charge 25 inches before you factor in fleet. Assuming they all make it into combat, you're looking at...

30 attacks, 20 hits, about 17 glances/pens. Which is about 6 dead razorbacks on turn 1. Mix that with the other 1250 points in your list, and I feel like you could take out the other razorbacks pretty reliably by the end of turn 2 even if all those hawks do get slaughtered after assaulting. And then it's just a game of killing off marines as they try to footslog across the board to reach objectives.

Izural wrote:
So you're telling me all I have to do is shift MEQs off objectives?
Y'know, that would be difficult if not for:
[snip]
Necrons (Who have OBSEC and 4+ Reanimate)

Crypteks notwithstanding, the 4+ Reanimate comes from the Decurion Detachment, but there's no ObSec to be found there. Those Necrons would have to clear the Marines off the objectives (which, of course, they totally could, but it's not as easy as walking up to the objective).

the_scotsman wrote:
Naked captains and chaplains that can't be in the transports? Icky. Probably want to give them someone to roll with yeah?

Well of course it's icky if they didn't dress for battle.

Seriously though, why would they not be able to join a tac or assault squad in a razorback?

I actually calculated out a list using these new rules. What I found is that due to the mandatory choices at 1850 pts the list will be either not be able to upgrade razorbacks to weapons that actually matter or the list will utterly lack AA and be extremely weak on 1 of the 3 major firepower groups; ie anti infantry, anti tank, and anti MC. This new formation is so close to 1850 pts by the time you take the minimum formations, units, and some upgrades to actually make them useful that you don't have pts for any more detachments to take more synergistic choices.

You might think that the 22 ObjSec units listed will win Obj based games on their own without needing killing power but I was already playing against 20+ ObjSec unit armies without issue for this entire edition and while I have had numerous close games against skilled players I have never been dominated by them.

I actually like the fact that they are doing something to make razorback and rhino space marines viable.

As for lists that can beat this in an objective game. Anything that has 3 high durability ObjSec units or an extreme alpha strike army. If you want specific lists just let me know and I will post them up tonight. Don't get me wrong this is a very good army with a lot of tactical depth which may actually be able to stand up to the 12 or so other top tier builds that existed before the new SM codex. SM codex had a few top tier builds (Cent Star, Drop Pod UM/IF and White Scars) now it has at least half a dozen. I am honestly not convinced that this would be any better than just straight scout spam with a better balanced set of heavy support and AA choices or even drop pod SM with the ability to take sicaran battle tanks and a fire raptor. This new codex even makes me tempted to try the land raider formation...I haven't fielded a standard land raider in ages as they at just 1 dimensional machines of poor rules concepts. Tank hunters and nothing but explodes actually makes me have to think about it.

Wasn't there a thread almost exactly like this when the codex Eldar rumors dropped? "OMG sixty scatbikes who can beat this!!!11"

Plenty of examples here already of lists that would eat a bunch of MEQ bodies for breakfast. I'd wager a bunch of marines and transports without upgrades are going to struggle to chew through Bullyboyz in scouting battlewagons.

I'd bring a deredeo dreadnaught and a fleet of bikes, I'd pop the razors open and then the deredeo would blow up its contents,

Once the infantry are all dead you remaining razors can be picked off at my leisure.

Another one would be to play cities of death and bring a vindicator laser destroyer or three, camp up major choke points, blow them up as they come around the corners and watch you attempt to navigate the increasingly expanding maze of rhino carcasses. You'd be bogged down for weeks trying to navigate the terrain and dead Razorbacks.

To get the free transports (rhinos/razorbacks/drop pods) you need to take 1-2demi-company 1+Auxilary 0-3 Command, So given the list you posted you still need to add 1 or more Auxiliary formations.