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So what are everyones thoughts on the new formation that makes all Eldar players clinch.

It is:

Skyhammer Annihilation Force

Two Assault Squads w/ Jump Packs
Two Dev Squads w/ Drop Pods

All units start in reserve and will deep strike in. During deployment decide if the entire formation will auto-arrive 1st turn or 2nd turn.

On the turn they arrive Dev Squads gain relentless. Dev Squads also gain (entire game) and Supressing Fusillade: A unit targeted by this unit in the shooting phase must take a morale check at the end of phase on 3D6. If the test fails the enemy unit immediately goes to ground. If the test is passed the enemy unit can not Overwatch for the rest of the turn.

On the turn they arrive Assault Squads gain, able to assault this turn. Assault squads also gain(entire game) Leave No Survivors: Can use their jump pack in both the movement and assault phases. If a unit with this rule charges a unit that has Gone to Ground as a result of the Supressing Fusillade special rule, the assault squad can reroll all failed to it and wound rolls in the ensuing assault phase.

Seems....a bit overkill to sell some models.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/652366.page

It's a very transparent cash grab.

Absurdly overpowered abilities only available (legally at least) bu buying a grip of new kits.

Seriously, it's a zero-cost enhancement to allow a bunch of units to come in where they want, when they want, and engage an enemy on their terms and at full (or better0 effectiveness, with an extremely high degree of safety, and basically nothing an opponent can do about it.

That's brutal , but at least assukt marines got a boost.

Previously they have been lacking at times.

How can they call it the SKYHAMMER if there's no Skyhammer Missiles in it?

Tested this vs my IG. Two of those formations and CAD of scouts and centurions in pod. Got wiped fourt times. nothing is safe from this, transports get blown up or charged, blobs eat ground and get charged, while support units blow up tanks. And because half the army is in melee the same turn it touchs ground it is realy hard to counter them. The devastators would be a good targets, if they didn't combat squads as soon as they land. 8 Ld tests on 3d6 is no friend for IG. Am just happy no one out of my friend group plays normal marines .

Coteaz is going to be even more popular than he is now.

Here are the actual rules:

Composition
The Skyhammer Annihilation Force comprises:

•Two Assault Squads with Jump Packs
•Two Devastator Squads in Drop Pods
And no less than four special rules:

Shock Deployment: All units in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Instead of using the normal deployment and reserve rules for these units, you can, during deployment, choose whether this Formation will arrive during your first or second turn. The entire Skyhammer Annihilation Force automatically arrives on the turn you choose—no Reserve Rolls are required. Ignore this Formation's Drop Pods for the purposes of the Drop Pod Assault special rule.

First the Fire, then the Blade: On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.

Suppressing Fusillade: A unit targeted by a Skyhammer Annihilation Force's Devastator Squad in the Shooting phase must take a Morale test at the end of the phase on 3D6, regardless of how many casualties were inflicted. If the test is failed, the enemy unit does not Fall Back, but must immediately Go to Ground. If the test is passed, the enemy unit is unable to fire Overwatch for the rest of the turn.

Leave No Survivors: Assault Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force can use their Jump Packs in both the Movement phase and the Assault phase. If an Assault Squad from a Skyhammer Annihilation Force charges a unit that has Gone to Ground as a result of the Suppressing Fusillade special rule, that Assault Squad can reroll failed To Hit and To Wound rolls in the ensuring Assault phase.

Holy freaking son of the Emprah. This formation is INSANE. I think it's like, the best formation I've seen in the game to date. I'm not even sure what a counter is, it's so freakin' good. Hide? RUN AWAY?

Elite40k's analysis: http://elite40k.blogspot.fr/2015/06/analysis-skyhammer-annihilation-force.html

Putting all these special rules together, we get:

•An extra two Drop Pods arriving turn one, on top of whatever you're getting from Drop Pod Assault
•Two* Devastator Squads that Pod in with Relentless—perfect for quad-grav squads
•Two* Assault Squads that must Deep Strike in, but can then charge immediately with no risk of Overwatch, plus Hammer of Wrath and rerolls on charge range and To Hit and To Wound
This Formation is exceptionally powerful, because it comprises four valuable units with no tax, and effectively ignores all the detriments of Deep Strike!

Furthermore, the Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads rules also apply to this Formation. Remember that you can choose Chapter Tactics for this Formation independently of other Formations and Detachments in your army; I think Ultramarines would be best so your Devastators can reroll To Hit on the turn they arrive.

If you take 10-man squads then you can Combat Squad into up to four Assault and Devastator Squads respectively; this would allow you to semi-reliably Pin up to four enemy units, and tarpit up to four other enemy units in assault, on your first turn—potentially before your opponent has even had his first move!

Finally, if you're willing to gamble against the risk of Mishaps, you could load up an Assault Squad with attached Independent Characters with Jump Packs / Terminator Armour / another form of Deep Strike, then first turn charge with your deathstar without them ever being shot.

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 Vaktathi wrote:
It's a very transparent cash grab.

Absurdly overpowered abilities only available (legally at least) bu buying a grip of new kits.

I disagree. This is gak every space marine player (who hasn't just tailored some deathstar or bike list) has. 2 drop pods, 2 assault squads and 2 devastator squads. It's not like you need new models, and with drop and relentless... it would even be good with multimetas and heavy bolters that you never used up. Never mind the gravs and eviscerators in the new kits.

I mean, really. if you're not playing a tournament, or playing one that allowed multiple identical detachments, you could just run 4xSkyhammer Annihilation Force and... Annihilationizilate your opponent. Those drop relentless devastators can be equipped with whatever you need to just wipe your opponent's significant models on the turn they land, and you can tie everything else up in cc with the ASM.

Fortunately, none of my friends would be so douche as to run this formation, except we'll try it out for laughs, of course.

You technically need to buy the web bundle to get it, right?

So no player has access to it (legally) without forking over the cash for the bundle.

Hence the cash grab.

 Blacksails wrote:
You technically need to buy the web bundle to get it, right?

So no player has access to it (legally) without forking over the cash for the bundle.

Hence the cash grab.

Why do you need to buy the web bundle? To own the datacard? O.O

I guess I don't play with (or know anyone) who insists on *that*. Someone will just scan in the datasheet, the same way a s the command tanks.

 Talys wrote:


Why do you need to buy the web bundle?

How else can you acquire the rules?

Is it in a WD issue? Available to download off the website? Something else I'm missing?

If its only available with the web bundles, then you need to buy the web bundle to get it.

The rules will be on bloodofkittens, which has like, every formation ever written.

 Talys wrote:
The rules will be on bloodofkittens, which has like, every formation ever written.

Legally.

As in, you have a legit, properly acquired, paid for copy of the rules in a physical or legitimate download.

Every tournament, league, and frankly, store I've ever been to requires a physical, legitimate copy of the rules to use them in a game. So the only way for me (and everyone I've ever played with) to use this formation, would be to buy the web bundle.

Hence why its a cash grab. Its a very strong set of rules hidden behind a pay wall.

Now, I have an internet connection and a pet parrot, but that doesn't mean this isn't any less of a blatant cash grab and pay to win example.

Agreed, Just because you can steal it doesn't make it any less of a cash grab.

@Blacksails --

About 40%-50% of the people I know have gone digital. They don't carry any books with them around anymore, just their iPads.

But seriously, since when do you need to lug around every copy of White Dwarf, Campaign Supplement, etc. with a formation that you play with, in order to play it?

I mean, where does it even say that, in the BRB? I photocopy all the formations out of every issue of WD and other supplements, whether I use them or not and stick them in a binder. If that's not good enough for someone, they can stuff it

I'm happy not to play with such a person.

So you're advocating that people just steal whatever they want if they deem the price too high for 40k?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Agreed, Just because you can steal it doesn't make it any less of a cash grab.

I'm saying that it's not a cash grab, because 95% of the people who play the formation will not buy the web bundle. I don't know ANYONE who walks around with Shield of Baal when they play the Flesh Tearer's formation. I mean, zero.

It would be a cash grab if it turned Grav Cannons into 4/6 Salvo, because you'd HAVE to buy the new devastators. Just like, if you want to use the new Windriders, you HAVE to buy the new scatterbikes. Scatterbikes are the perfect examples of a cash grab.

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 Blacksails wrote:
So you're advocating that people just steal whatever they want if they deem the price too high for 40k?

I didn't say that. I'm saying: a rule (or a formation) is valid and it exists, even if you don't have a printed copy of that rule. If it exists, it's legal to play. The formation rules say, "This formation may be used with..." . It doesn't say, "This formation can only be used if you carry around this sheet of paper", or even, "This formation is only legal to play if you bought the web bundle online", so you certainly don't need to carry it around with you!

In North America, it is legal to photocopy things for personal use. For example, pages from a book in a library. From cover to cover, if you want!

If there were something illegal about posting all of the formations for 40k online, BloodOfKittens would be shut down by GW. It's easy enough to do.

Now, if you play with douchebags that require you carry around books for everything that you field, your loss, I guess.

 Talys wrote:


I didn't say that. I'm saying: a rule is valid, even if you don't have a printed copy of that rule. It still exists, and you can play it. You certainly don't need to carry it around with you!

But you need to pay for it.

Just like every other rule in 40k. You need to pay for the core rulebook and your codex. Why would any other rule in the game be exempt from this?

Unless, again, you're advocating people steal whatever rules they don't feel like paying for.

*Edit* Just saw your edit.

You're still ultimately saying you're fine with people pirating every rule they don't feel like buying.

 Blacksails wrote:

You're still ultimately saying you're fine with people pirating every rule they don't feel like buying.

Way to put words in my mouth, man. I'm saying: rules exist whether you pay for them or not. You don't need to pay or own rulebooks to play them, unless your opponent insists on it. But your opponent can insist on anything, like they won't play with you unless you wear pink. But neither is a rule ANYWHERE in BRB.

No, but technically the only way to obtain it, is by buying the bundle. The same way people would technically have to buy the shield of baal books in order to be able to use them. They could then, still leave them at home.

I get what you mean, but, the only way for a law-abiding citizen to play the formation is to buy the bundle, digital or otherwise. Anything else is advocating piracy.....technically.

The fact that the formation will be readily available for free and possibly well known doesn't really change that. So, if your personal moral codex dictactes that you need to have purchased the product in order to use it, then there is no other way than to get the bundle, which totally does make it a cashgrab in my book. And a bs practice by GW that is seriously starting to annoy me.

ITC FAQ and ITC 40k Guidelines:

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-season-40k-tournament-format/

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/40k-faq/

Please tell me where it says anywhere that you must buy a web bundle to play the rules for that bundle. OR, where it says, you must own a copy of a supplement to play a formation in it. OR, where it says, anywhere, that you must bring the rules for the formations you're using.

Is it illegal, or against your moral code, for two brothers or two friends or a group of friends in a club to share a copy of a rulebook? Sheesh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Roknar wrote:
The fact that the formation will be readily available for free and possibly well known doesn't really change that. So, if your personal moral codex dictactes that you need to have purchased the product in order to use it, then there is no other way than to get the bundle, which totally does make it a cashgrab in my book. And a bs practice by GW that is seriously starting to annoy me.

I fundamentally disagree with this. In our group of 6 friends, we bought ONE copy of Codex: Imperial Knights (the first one). I paid for it. They made use of it.

I'd like someone to tell me how this is any more immoral than lending out my copy of Game of Thrones, borrowing GURPS, or playing Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay or Dungeons and Dragons without owning a copy of the rulebook.

There doesn't need to be a rule for it.

Its generally assumed that if you wish to use something - anything - you need to pay the person who created it, assuming there's a price tag (some games have free rules).

And yes, your opponent can refuse a game for any reason; the moon could be in the house of Venus on the second Tuesday of March which forbids them from touching cubes with pips on them, but that's not the point being argued.

I don't think its unreasonable in the slightest that I expect my opponent to have a complete and legitimate copy of their rules they intend on using in a game. Their own scans are fine, and I'm no legal expert, but I'm not sure disseminating a product for free among a number of people counts as 'fair use' or whatever the wording is.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Roknar wrote:
No, but technically the only way to obtain it, is by buying the bundle. The same way people would technically have to buy the shield of baal books in order to be able to use them. They could then, still leave them at home.

This is not true. If someone has listed the formation publically online -- along with EVERY OTHER FORMATION EVER WRITTEN -- and Games Workshop is aware of it, and Games Workshop hasn't asked them to take it down, there's nothing wrong with the online copy at all. After all, GW is the copyright holder. If they don't object, it's not infringement.

Now, the copy of the codex that's on Bittorrent on the other hand, is illegal, because that is something that GW tries to stop (but can't).

If you play in a "pay to win" group, where everyone must own a copy of the supplement of the rules they want to play, fine. I'd submit that's a crappy group, but whatever, I get it

And anyhow, my original point was... This is a freaking INSANE formation. It's a WAAC player's wet dream.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:
There doesn't need to be a rule for it.

Its generally assumed that if you wish to use something - anything - you need to pay the person who created it, assuming there's a price tag (some games have free rules).

A great number of RPG players would just out-and-out disagree with you, because most RPG players don't buy all the supplements and source books of everything they play, though someone in the group probably has. They share! But that's ok, you're entitled to your opinion on it, and we'll just differ on what is "legit" and have a different standard in our play groups.

"In the old days" the public library had copies of White Dwarf and Dragon magazine. We would make photocopies at $0.05 per copy, and use them in our play. Nobody ever dreamed that was "Piracy".

You don't have to buy the bundle if you purchase JUST the data card on eBay or something like that.

Anyway, if we can get back on the topic of the formation rather than whether you need to buy the web bundle to use it (since that will just go in circles)... what do you guys think of the formation?

I think it's insane. I mean, way, way too powerful. I dare say, from a theorycrafting perspective, "unbeatable" as you can deep strike units that are perfectly points efficient (no waste) that can be tailored to kill any sort of enemy that you choose with no fear of retaliation. By the time the turn rolls around, you'll have killed way more than your own points worth of enemy.

 Talys wrote:
ITC FAQ and ITC 40k Guidelines:

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-season-40k-tournament-format/

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/40k-faq/

Please tell me where it says anywhere that you must buy a web bundle to play the rules for that bundle. OR, where it says, you must own a copy of a supplement to play a formation in it. OR, where it says, anywhere, that you must bring the rules for the formations you're using.

Is it illegal, or against your moral code, for two brothers or two friends or a group of friends in a club to share a copy of a rulebook? Sheesh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Roknar wrote:
The fact that the formation will be readily available for free and possibly well known doesn't really change that. So, if your personal moral codex dictactes that you need to have purchased the product in order to use it, then there is no other way than to get the bundle, which totally does make it a cashgrab in my book. And a bs practice by GW that is seriously starting to annoy me.

I fundamentally disagree with this. In our group of 6 friends, we bought ONE copy of Codex: Imperial Knights (the first one). I paid for it. They made use of it.[b]

I'd like someone to tell me how this is any more immoral than lending out my copy of Game of Thrones, borrowing GURPS, or playing Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay or Dungeons and Dragons without owning a copy of the rulebook.

My group consists of 4 players and we each have a BRB. And don't share codices. Even if we're playing the same army. I'm not calling you out on sharing it. But please don't assume everyone does that.
In my group we like to exempt other people from purchases like that. As in, if I want to play that army then I also need to get the codex. I can't exactly rely on my friend always bringing his/our copy with him/her.
We don't lend stuff, because it always just ends up getting lost or we eventually forgot who's it was it was in the first place. That said, we only actually use/bring the BRB of whomever's house we're playing at.

In this particular case, especially with such overpowering rules, it would be frowned upon to use the formation without actually having made the proper purchase. (testing runs notwithstanding). Of course, using this formation at all would just cause everybody to gang up on you but still.
So if we were to commit to d&D or whatever, then we would have one copy of the rulebook at everybody's house yes. If for no other reason than to familiarize yourself with the rules.
Doing the same with only one book is no less moral than getting 4 books. But for us, if we use/play something, then everybody who does, will naturally pay for the product they are using. Unless, of course you enjoy it enough to play with friends but you don't like it enough to waste your personal time with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well the idea was to show that it is very much a cashgrab, albeit perhaps not a super successful one because of the reasons you mention.

But back on topic.

And anyhow, my original point was... This is a freaking INSANE formation. It's a WAAC player's wet dream.

That was never in doubt to me lol. I personally think it's the most broken thing GW has released by a LONG shot. Just those massed moral tests from simply LOOKING at a unit is insanely strong. That alone would let you lock down half an army. But of course it doesn't stop there, oh no.
It's mind boggling.

This is just typical GW in action: release a new kit, and then make them overpowered in the rules. See Eldar bikers and Wraith units. This is definitely one of the specific formations I would actually ban outside of highly competitive play, along with the Canoptek Harvest.

Still, it's good to see Assault Marines getting at least some attention. The only real weakness with this list is the fact that everything comes in at once. The Drop Pods interfere with any other podded units, and the assault squads are still able to potentially mishap.

As far as potential counters go, I think that tournament-grade MSU lists could do well with the amount of threats and the old null-deployment shenanigans. Still a really strong and probably undercosted and overpowered formation.

 Talys wrote:
Anyway, if we can get back on the topic of the formation rather than whether you need to buy the web bundle to use it (since that will just go in circles)... what do you guys think of the formation?

I think it's insane. I mean, way, way too powerful. I dare say, from a theorycrafting perspective, "unbeatable" as you can deep strike units that are perfectly points efficient (no waste) that can be tailored to kill any sort of enemy that you choose with no fear of retaliation. By the time the turn rolls around, you'll have killed way more than your own points worth of enemy.

This may not be the straw that will break the camel's back, but if this ploy is successful. The formations that come after it will kill 40k as a game.

...and here I was starting to feel guilty about wanting to use my 'exclusive' Cohort Mechanicus Formation.

At least the Skyhammer one is more point friendly. Almost makes me wish I waited another few months to get back into the hobby. I'd be building Space Marines instead of AdMech.

 Talys wrote:
Anyway, if we can get back on the topic of the formation rather than whether you need to buy the web bundle to use it (since that will just go in circles)... what do you guys think of the formation?

I think it's insane. I mean, way, way too powerful. I dare say, from a theorycrafting perspective, "unbeatable" as you can deep strike units that are perfectly points efficient (no waste) that can be tailored to kill any sort of enemy that you choose with no fear of retaliation. By the time the turn rolls around, you'll have killed way more than your own points worth of enemy.

My 'Armchair General's seat' hasn't been comfortably broken in yet, but it can't be such a clear cut auto-victory. Dropping units in can't be that smooth. There's how the opponent's units are set up, even the board with its terrain etc... I can't see anything being THAT good. If it looks to good to be true...

On a side note, I didn't think we could post rules such as these online. It's what has kept me from posting anything about the AdMech formation.

 Rashbold wrote:

My 'Armchair General's seat' hasn't been comfortably broken in yet, but it can't be such a clear cut auto-victory. Dropping units in can't be that smooth. There's how the opponent's units are set up, even the board with its terrain etc... I can't see anything being THAT good. If it looks to good to be true...

On a side note, I didn't think we could post rules such as these online. It's what has kept me from posting anything about the AdMech formation.

Being able to call exactly when you want to deep strike (and being able to call Turn 1) and not being limited to half your force eliminates the biggest problem on deep strike. Plus, you have your choice of plasma or grav heavy weapons with relentless on a cheap unit. A 4 grav dev team costs 35 points x 4 + 70 = 210 points, add 5 points if you want the freaky angel. With relentless and a bucket of rerolls -- 20 dice shots with grav amps and doctrine against armor saves -- you'll remove anything in the game that you can shoot that's even twice as expensive.

Those ASM -- that can jump TWICE and can't be overwatched -- will be stupidly annoying to get rid of once they lock units into a tarpit, too (because you can't shoot into it with your other units).

I dunno man. We haven't played this yet, but I just don't see how a lot of armies could deal with the formation and have a 50/50 chance of winning.