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Hi Guys,

I played a Necron player last Sat fielding a decurion detachment (2500 PTS game BTW).

I allowed myself to field an Angelic Host (2 x 10 Seraphim and Celestine. Everybody can reroll invulnerable saves - which seraphim already have - and have shred to turn they deep strike) and Purge Squadron (3+ Retibutor squads with 3+ immolator. All units have Relentless and if combining the 6 unit shot I can cast either R36" Str5 Ap4 Heavy 1 Apo Blast, Hellstrom Str5 Ap 4 Heavy 1 Torrent, R24" Str8 Ap 1 Heavy 1 Melta large blast or R24" Str6 Ap3 Heavy 1 Melta Ignore Cover and Massive blast) formation (in addition to a CAD) from my side which are both Apocalypse formation as per the AS codex.

I lost the game anyway and inform my opponent that I played with 2 Apocalyptic formation. He said that he was fine with that and was actually very fun to play with/against.

What is your opinion?

Thanks

PS: to avoid confusion, I inform him after the game

How is it cheating if you told your opponent, and asked permission?

 Robisagg wrote:
How is it cheating if you told your opponent, and asked permission?

I told him after the game.

He probably just thought it was awesome playing against Sisters!

I would probably label you TFG, refuse to play against you again, and warn your potential opponents that you cheat. There's no "kind of" about your cheating, you blatantly cheated and took an illegal army to give yourself an advantage. The fact that your opponent approved of it after the game was over is irrelevant, the honest thing to do would have been to ask in advance and accept that "no" is a reasonable answer.

There is no real difference between apocalypse and regular games now with wraithnknights, imperial knights, and decurion like formations so as along as you are fine with formations or formation detachments there would be no reason to not want to play that.

At that points level you are almost to what would be a small apocalypse game (3000).

And anyways, sisters need some love, I bet that game was exciting!

He also may have been savvy to your plans the whole time.

Usually this sort of thing isn't an issue for me because my opponent and I always do a pre-game rundown of what is what.

The real question though is were you playing an Apoc match or just a regular game? As far as I know Apoc formations are limited to those specific matches. You wouldn't use a stratagem from cities of death in a normal match would you? Did your opponent have an Apoc formation or were you the only one getting army wide boosts?

 ZanyZombie wrote:
There is no difference between apocalypse and regular games now so as along as you are fine with formations or formation detachments there would be no reason to not want to play that.

There absolutely is a difference between regular games and Apocalypse games, and Apocalypse formations are not legal in regular games. And I think "it's not a legal army" is a perfectly valid reason to not want to play against something. It's certainly a valid reason to expect your opponent to ask permission before using their illegal army and not just assume that it's ok to break the rules.

Even though it was only agreed with after the game, he still agreed with it. He was fine with having faced whatever you fielded.

You basically didn't even cheat.

None of the poll options are appropriate for me. I don't think apocalypse formations should be in normal games, but the fact that your opponent agreed with you using them for your game means that everything is all okay. The fact that he agreed after rather than before is a little dodgy, but he agreed.

Edit: ignore this post I though I pressed edit on the last one.

Oh see, the misspelling mixed me up. The necron player was using a Decurion.

See in that case the Necron player was definitely aware, and to be honest he probably thought you needed the help.

Again though, being shady about your list is total bunk. Playing blind against a list is soooo stupid when you're playing a stranger! Always, always check lists pre-game and make sure no one is cheating (intentionally or otherwise). Its so easy to slip in an extra few hundred points sometimes.

And of course, play fair yourself and don't cheat. In the end it totally defeats the purpose. Might as well sit at home and play by yourself if you're okay with lying about your list or fudging dice rolls.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ZanyZombie wrote:
There is no difference between apocalypse and regular games now so as along as you are fine with formations or formation detachments there would be no reason to not want to play that.

There absolutely is a difference between regular games and Apocalypse games, and Apocalypse formations are not legal in regular games. And I think "it's not a legal army" is a perfectly valid reason to not want to play against something. It's certainly a valid reason to expect your opponent to ask permission before using their illegal army and not just assume that it's ok to break the rules.

Arrg, you beat me to my edit I meant that there was no real difference, with decurion and wraithknights in the battlefield. You do make a good point too. I would think it is common courtesy to tell your opponent what exactly your army is before the game. I don't play competitively so from my standpoint as long as a game is fun, I really don't care what you bring.

 Xenophon00 wrote:
Hi Guys,

I played a Necron player last Sat fielding a decision detachment (2500 PTS game BTW).

I allowed myself to field an Angelic Host (2 x 10 Seraphim and Celestine. Everybody can reroll invulnerable saves - which seraphim already have - and have shred to turn they deep strike) and Purge Squadron (3+ Retibutor squads with 3+ immolator. All units have Relentless and if combining the 6 unit shot I can cast either R36" Str5 Ap4 Heavy 1 Apo Blast, Hellstrom Str5 Ap 4 Heavy 1 Torrent, R24" Str8 Ap 1 Heavy 1 Melta large blast or R24" Str6 Ap3 Heavy 1 Melta Ignore Cover and Massive blast) formation (in addition to a CAD) from my side which are both Apocalypse formation as per the AS codex.

I lost the game anyway and inform my opponent that I played with 2 Apocalyptic formation. He said that he was fine with that and was actually very fun to play with/against.

What is your opinion?

Thanks

PS: to avoid confusion, I inform him after the game

Well, personally, I'm rather sure I would have noticed this before the game started or very early into it, so I don't think finding out after the game would have been relevant.

If you were up front about it when asked as soon as I realized what was going on, and then checked if it were ok, I'd probably be fine with it. Annoyed, likely a bit irritated, but ultimately get over it.

If you were evasive and demanding about it being "totally the same as anything else", I'd probably end it there.

If I did miss that and found out afterwards, I'd probably bring it up next time I saw you and say "hey, that army wasn't really legal last time we played".

That said, with the state 40k is in...and the stuff normal codex books allow, I'm not seeing how the Apocalypse formations are objectively worse or less balanced than anything else. The problem would be with the idea of attempting to cheat, rather than the actual power gain offered by the formations.

Honestly I would have been pretty peeved that you tried to whip out x2 Apocalypse Formations on me without telling me, however since I won the game it would mitigate that sting a bit. I would tell you in the future tell me right off and if you ever do that again then we may have some issues.

 Xenophon00 wrote:

 Robisagg wrote:
How is it cheating if you told your opponent, and asked permission?

I told him after the game.

Oh, well that changes things. Kind of a TFG move man, not cool.

Well, I wouldn't punch your face at all as that is illegal in many ways and would result in me losing my career. I also wouldn't touch your girlfriend as I have my own and is also mostly illegal. Though I really don't like cats I suppose I'd be satisfied with yelling at it for a few seconds as I've found they tend not to like that. It really would depend on your car though if I were to drive it into a wall. If it was a nice one I'd more than likely just admire it for a while and call it a day.

Definitely would spit on your stuffed animals though. And make you watch too.

On a scale of 1-10, 10 being super cheating, I'd rate this at about a 4. 2500 is a big enough game for super heavies and such, so meh. If you had the points for it, it's more comparable to a cheesy army.
I probably wouldn't play you again, but one time I had a BA player who brought an extra 2 squads of 10 assault marines and that was way worse.

 Xenophon00 wrote:
He said that he was fine with that and was actually very fun to play with/against.

How can it be bad if it's fun. On the other hand, toy soldiers are serious business and you must be excommunicated.

Pretty lame. Overall poor sportsmanship and bad taste. I mean what was the purpose of bringing "illegal" formations, and hoping he wouldn't catch it? You had to win that bad??? Come on man, play fair and be consistent about it! Sure he might have said it was ok/fun but who knows, maybe he was really irritated and didn't say anything.

In the end its your reputation, and if you want to be known as a sneaky cheater, thats up to you.

1/10.

Honestly, if I asked you and you didn't tell me if be peeved, however, if I DIDNT ask before hand, I'd shrug and keep on carrying on.

I wouldn't mind, its fair game, and anyone that would tell you to stuff it just because it wasnt an "apoc" game should be ashamed.

All this of course hinges on if you would have been upfront about it before hand. Should I have asked.


All in all its better to tell your oppennent what your army is before a friendly game, however, if they don't askz they don't really have a right to be pissy and upset

Unless you blatantly went above point limits or leid about something.

I would call what you did poor sportsmanship. Not necessarily cheating, but still not okay. As the poll option states, next time you should fully inform your opponent about your army, and then let them decide if they want to play against you.

 Ignatius wrote:
Well, I wouldn't punch your face at all as that is illegal in many ways and would result in me losing my career. I also wouldn't touch your girlfriend as I have my own and is also mostly illegal. Though I really don't like cats I suppose I'd be satisfied with yelling at it for a few seconds as I've found they tend not to like that. It really would depend on your car though if I were to drive it into a wall. If it was a nice one I'd more than likely just admire it for a while and call it a day.

Definitely would spit on your stuffed animals though. And make you watch too.

Not on Mr. Mak Mak please. Anyway thanks for the support.

To anybody else, the opposite player is a good friend of mine. I did this first to try out those formation (which only had some special rule but no additional points value).
I apologized to him and promised a total clarity for the future. I always share my Battlescrib list before playing anybody but since theses formation are not mention in it he could not realize.

I am a bad boy I know and won't repeat anymore.

Question. Did you know they were Apocalypse only going into the game?

 darkcloak wrote:
He also may have been savvy to your plans the whole time.

Usually this sort of thing isn't an issue for me because my opponent and I always do a pre-game rundown of what is what.

The real question though is were you playing an Apoc match or just a regular game? As far as I know Apoc formations are limited to those specific matches. You wouldn't use a stratagem from cities of death in a normal match would you? Did your opponent have an Apoc formation or were you the only one getting army wide boosts?

We schedule this game a while ago and did not mention Apoc at all. No Cities of Death involve and my opponent was using a Decurion formation.

You didn't follow the rules, and you didn't have the balls to ask your opponent if it was OK to field those Apocalypse formations before the game.

Not cool.

Sure, it might have made the game better and made it more entertaining for both parties - but you were dishonest about it and that taints the whole endeavour.

Honestly, I'm not sure "apoclypse only" formations are (as GW sees it) really a thing anymore anyway in an era where people can take formations and super heavies in regular games. where quite frankly apoclypse as a seperate game seems to be dead. I could see geuinely honest mistakes like this happening.

You really should've got your opponent's permission first. Especially if he's a mate and the opportunity to discuss the game way beforehand was there.

Maybe if he'd lost to your illegal list his opinion on the matter would be a little different?

You knowingly and wilfully cheated. I would never play you again, and I would request both the store and club to ban you.

I'd have called you on it at the start of the game (even if I wouldn't have recognised the formation, I always ask to read the rules for formations if I'm playing against them for the first time), then depending on your reaction, played you anyway or told you to eff off.

As for your horrible poll?

I'd just tell your girlfriend you were cheating. I would not specify in what context. She can punish you far better than I would ever be allowed to.

While sisters need all the help they can get, the hellstrom templates should have been a hint to the other guy. Tau Apoc formations are pretty tame as well... I'll try some in the future with my pals. We just try to avoid D stuff and super-heavies/gargantuans - the rest is fair game, mostly.

But I'd be a bit pissed if informed AFTER the game. That's mean, dude.