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I've been mulling over the new SM codex...and seeing where my Templars fit in all of it...well...every list looks like a shooty list of doom. While crusader squads got better since scouts got better...it still doesn't solve the problem of them dying in droves. Grimaldus got a buff...but now his cenobyte servitors are actually models that form a squad vs. wargear...which means if he takes them he can't join squads anymore. The Emperor's Champion is still too expensive for what you get...and Helbrect is meh at best. He doesn't even get an Orbital Bombardment even though he's a chapter master. Sure you now can drop pod Grav Cents on someone's head in this codex...but really..what's the point of Templars anymore if they simply play like any other chapter? What am I missing? I have 20,000pts. of templars collecting dust. If I can't find something in this codex that will motivate me to enjoy them again..I may as well sell them. Thoughts?

They've really been raising the efficiency of shooting at the expense of combat. My Orks are feeling it, too...

EC got a buff, at least. And BT tactics are finally halfway decent for assaults. Utilizing them within a Gladius gives them access to UM Assault Doctrine. Won't say they're good, but they're better than the 6e book.

Most of what you listed was already a problem with the last codex - BTs most definitely got better this codex, at the very least the chapter tactics and neophytes are way better for sure.

Chaplains really help boost the effectiveness of Crusader Squads, and they're a really cheap HQ choice. And very fluffy for BTs.

Grimaldus boosts crusader squads with the cenobytes providing FNP...however, the cenobytes aren't wargear anymore..thus Grimaldus is easier to target now since you can't bury him in a squad. I like that their chapter traits got better in the new book...but then there really is no incentive to build a crusader squad when fielding BT tactical squads in a demi company is better...but then that doesn't really feel like a Templar army at that point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
EC got a buff, at least. And BT tactics are finally halfway decent for assaults. Utilizing them within a Gladius gives them access to UM Assault Doctrine. Won't say they're good, but they're better than the 6e book.

The EC is still too expensive for what he brings to the table. While he got buffed somewhat...he's still 30-40pts too expensive.


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Other than poking around with a demi company...I'm not even sure what a decent templars list will look like now. Obviously, my shield eternal biker chapter master beatstick is a no brainer...but seriously...it would have been nice if they would have provided one FN formation for the templars that was unique to them.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
Grimaldus boosts crusader squads with the cenobytes providing FNP...however, the cenobytes aren't wargear anymore..thus Grimaldus is easier to target now since you can't bury him in a squad. I like that their chapter traits got better in the new book...but then there really is no incentive to build a crusader squad when fielding BT tactical squads in a demi company is better...but then that doesn't really feel like a Templar army at that point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
EC got a buff, at least. And BT tactics are finally halfway decent for assaults. Utilizing them within a Gladius gives them access to UM Assault Doctrine. Won't say they're good, but they're better than the 6e book.

The EC is still too expensive for what he brings to the table. While he got buffed somewhat...he's still 30-40pts too expensive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Other than poking around with a demi company...I'm not even sure what a decent templars list will look like now. Obviously, my shield eternal biker chapter master beatstick is a no brainer...but seriously...it would have been nice if they would have provided one FN formation for the templars that was unique to them.

I get what you're saying, but 30-40pts cheaper wouldn't make him a balanced unit - it would almost invalidate taking a captain. Think about it - base 90pts? After buying Artificer, the EC would still clock in superior.

BT definitely aren't the strongest choice out of the dex. Weren't in 6e, and that didn't change in 7e, but they did get better. I'd honestly throw gladius to the wind. CAD w/ Helbrecht and Grimaldus (or EC) , two 15 man crusader teams and a 16 man one (or honor guard) and a Land Raider spearhead. Proceed to deliver the Emperor's justice in your pseudo-superheavy LRs and Helbrecht delivering the marine version of WAAAAGH! Far from a cutthroat competitive list, but hey, work with what you've got.

Honestly, I think the Skyhammer formation would work well with the BT chapter tactics. All those assault squads that get to charge right in to combat and get the chance of gaining rage from being overwatched? Sounds like a good time.

And the EC is definitely viable at his current cost. While it'd be nice if he had another wound, he can still wreck some face in close combat.

The Skyhammer builds in overwatch protection via the devastators. I mean, you could voluntarily charge something they didn't shoot, but... eh.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
The Skyhammer builds in overwatch protection via the devastators. I mean, you could voluntarily charge something they didn't shoot, but... eh.

Oh. I would most definitely charge things I didnt shoot. Because its 5 units. Why send all of that at the same target. Send the Shooty at the choppy and the choppy at the shooty.

 Icculus wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
The Skyhammer builds in overwatch protection via the devastators. I mean, you could voluntarily charge something they didn't shoot, but... eh.

Oh. I would most definitely charge things I didnt shoot. Because its 5 units. Why send all of that at the same target. Send the Shooty at the choppy and the choppy at the shooty.

I suppose. Though it would be as easy as taking 10 Devs, combat squadding the big guns into one unit and bolters into the other. Bolters force leadership on unit to be charged. They pass, they can't overwatch. Fail, go to ground. Then they get charged. Big guns still shoot the choppy. Dependent on enemy army, of course.

But, it's slightly off-topic. As far as BT goes, I could see the merit. It goes against every fiber of my being to actively seek the death of my troops.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Icculus wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
The Skyhammer builds in overwatch protection via the devastators. I mean, you could voluntarily charge something they didn't shoot, but... eh.

Oh. I would most definitely charge things I didnt shoot. Because its 5 units. Why send all of that at the same target. Send the Shooty at the choppy and the choppy at the shooty.

But, it's slightly off-topic. As far as BT goes, I could see the merit. It goes against every fiber of my being to actively seek the death of my troops.

Never played Orks then?

Take the land raider formation

Take an honor guard with helbrecht/the chaplain + emperors champion. Take two units of sword brethen, throw in hidden fists and some assault special weapons.

Roll up the field ignoring everything but explodes/hull point loss.

Fill out remaining points however.

I'd argue its more competitive than black tide.

 Icculus wrote:
Never played Orks then?

Never had the inclination.

Eh, armies these days are measured in guns, movement, and psychic powers. Black Templar special rules do not help guns, crusader isn't much of a movement buff compared to the nonsense other armies get, and we flat out get no psykers unless you want to ally them in (in which case why bother playing a theme?)

So like all other melee orientated, low psyker armies, they suck. My Khorne and Orks say hi.

I see lots of potential.

I've recently spent the week using Templars against Imperial Fists, Ultramarines and IG...

Wasn't able to play more than 1250 at any one time, admittedly, but I found the Emperor's Champion in a large unit of crusaders who are either abusing cover or abusing a Land Raider tend to either draw a ton of fire, or wipe out elite units (The Champion got named Galahad Witchslayer by my opponents, and for good reason). Being able to use 2D6, choosing the highest when running, proved to be a reliable way to add movement into cover on the crusaders, and strategic challenging turned the Champ into a horrifying wrecking ball against key enemy units, like Sternguard and Librarian Conclaves. It probably helped that he has cheating good luck against psychic powers, but hey.

BT do need some fire support though, with worked well with Gravma Devs in this group. Plasmacannons to take out clustered MEQ units, and Grav to delete highly tough units.

Using Scouts and Assault marines as quick moving screening/distraction units who start menacing vehicles with krak grenades tended to result in a T2 conundrum of whether to deal with the drop-podding Gravcannon devastators, the unit-deleting Plasmacannon Devastators from 36" away, or the Emperor's Champion who's set to menace half the army.

I've used my templars with great success so far, but I'm going to admit it wasn't because of the Templar list build, it was with 2k Gladius Strike Forces. I did not shy away from CC though, a crusader squad as my assault squads made the list seem more at home. Also, using a Templar tactic as drop pod assault made if seem a tad bit more fluffy. People asked me why I ran them as templars when I could choose from other tactics....all I see them as are templars.

hellbrecht got a nice boost, good to see him actually become malleable

BT's certainly improved from the last book. Are they uber competitive now? No. But they got better

If nothing else it sounds like they're usable. Ultimately that's all that's really important.

The BT's are pretty capable, but really you have to hve the right mindset to play an like them i think

Also i don't know what crazy damn fool thinks the Emperors champion isn't amazing, he costs hardly anything for s6 ap2 2+ 4++ badass

GAdvance wrote:
The BT's are pretty capable, but really you have to hve the right mindset to play an like them i think

Also i don't know what crazy damn fool thinks the Emperors champion isn't amazing, he costs hardly anything for s6 ap2 2+ 4++ badass

Same. You need a hyper-aggressive and vindictive mindset, which, when combined with an EC (who utterly abuses the BT chapter tactics) makes for some very hairy moments on the TT for the opponent.

The Emperor's Champion is definitely "My Dude". Had over a dozen games with him last week, dude was man of the match in all of them.