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2021/12/23 00:36:17
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
I really like a Beatstick Winged Tyrant, fast, Synapse, and casts. 10/10 would devour again. Hive Guard are still the best of the best...but screens are an issue.
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2021/12/23 06:36:20
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
pinecone77 wrote:
THat is what we are talking about...just in a circular way. Nids are winning top tables by playing the mission, and maxing secondaries. So a full understanding of what has been added, and what has been taken away is needed. Nidzilla needs help for the secondaries.
You can flood the center with Carnifexen, and use your Beatstick Tyrant to pick off backfield units. But getting on all fronts is an "issue" Mawlock looks like a solution, also our "never use" flyers, might be useful
Test games must be fought to find the perfect mix, but just having Nidzilla as an option is very nice.
Not a lot of winning for the Tyranids apart from shooty Hive guard list. These new monster-list rules will make some waves but will also increase the amount of anti-tank/mc shooting. I don't believe that a bunch of carnifexes can win even when they're are a bit tougher now.
Razerous wrote:Wings on a hive tyrant? I'm guessing we have tougher faster units with the heirodule & Dima.
Hive tyrant flies 16 inch and got 4++ inv. save. So it depends...
Razerous wrote:The swarmlord does look really fun. Can you give it biomorphic carapace?
No. "Named characters such as the Swarmlord, Old One Eye, Deathleaper and the Red Terror cannot be given any of the following Bio-artefacts"
Razerous wrote:Hive Guard are still an excellent pick, right?
Yep, indirect heavy shooting is very good but you also need to have the tools to get the objectives.
What's better for mobility; Harpy, Mawloc or other?
Mobility? Harpy can be made Obj secured (leviathan stratagem) and steal objectives but can also be shot down. Mawloc can actually deepstrike within 1 inch and steal objectives right away and count as 12 models (wounds) but cannot be made obj secured in that same turn (command phase). After that the mawloc is just a distraction but now with 5++ and -1 damage harder to remove from the objective.
2021/12/23 15:17:48
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
The mawlocs are certainly good fun, however (and this is the same problem with teleporting Skitari infantry), the objective-secured strategem is done in the command phase. It'll work for the harpy but not the mawloc (if the Mawloc deep strikes mobility wise).
It'll also work for anything catapulted by the swarmlord.
pinecone77 wrote: I really like a Beatstick Winged Tyrant, fast, Synapse, and casts. 10/10 would devour again. Hive Guard are still the best of the best...but screens are an issue.
How do you kit out that hive tyrant? I was thinking leviathan sabers that ignore invinerable saves. Make him murderus sieze and go to town.
But the more I thought about it the less sure I was. Murderus sieze feels like overkill. There is a new warlordtrait that let's him get 1d3 more attacks. Also, the relic is better used for having easier psykicks.
I am working on a list with neuronthrope, flying hive tyrant and Swarmlord. Witch one gets what powers, now that we have more trees to chose from?
Also, is the flying hive tyrant so special. A flying crone or harpy can make reliable first turn charges. As can anything thrown by the Swarmlord. Am I just daring the opponent to use counter offensive.
The Invl ignoring sabres - AP-3 with 4D (or 3D vs most toughies) means that a 3+ save becomes a 6+, or a 2+ into a 5+... So against certain profiles the investment of a relic and warlord trait isn't much more helpful but against some its pretty fantastic. However could you get better results via other routes... Tricky?
For the wings - hold off on those 30pts and see where you get to. The board is a lot smaller than when we first saw the "new" Hive Tyrantd with wings.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/23 20:03:49
I recently aquiered 2 scything hierophant. Between them and the Swarmlord I feel like I got melee covered.
I also aquiered 6 new warriors. (I have 18 from before.) I wanted to do 3x2 scything tallons and the +1 bs. But is that really worth 66 points? I am growing unsure and loosing confidence.
I am thinking Lictor trail a reserved x3 Brood of Warriors (Obj secured) Then you Mawlock if you need extra bodies to count for control? My Beatstick Tyrant is just Scythes and wings For Psy I plan on the add D3 attacks, and the spookems one (-3 Ld, -1 run roll etc) Just to see if being spooky can work. Don't forget to burn CP so you can roll D-Wounds fishing for a number based on S vs T, and gain up to 6MW when you charge.
I believe that will let me hunt Chars if my foe makes a mistake.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think Warriors with Synapse Link are super useful. Use one to babysit Hive Guard and +1 to hit them. It also lets you place Synapse all over the place, which is important for some Strats.
If you play with lots of Warriors I think a x6 to x9 can be a good thing to hold the center.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Consider a x9 Brood of Warriors, with the 4+ Invuln Psy power up, then you can use the Chiten Strat if the attacks are high S.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/12/24 00:03:30
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2021/12/24 00:44:58
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
I seem to remember that its a "If any objective secured models meet any other number of objective secured models (enemy), then it simply become whoever has the most models (regardless of objective secured)"
I mean, I have been running a brood of 9 warriors with the adaptive to give them +2 to armor in cover then run jormungunder so they are always in cover since the psycic awakening has been out. Between them just with 3w and the strat to reduce dmg by 1 to them, and a tyrand lord for +1 to bs to them that blob has never disappointed me. So yeah 1 Warrior blob is awaome.
2021/12/24 03:12:49
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
jormy warriors are great, but remember when your using crusher swarm you loose your regular hive fleet adaptation.
Basically crusher swarm is gonna be only leviathan atm to gain access to the full reroll WL trait, the -1 to wound relic, and the strat to turn a monster obsec. Those 3 things are too good to use any other hive fleet for the crusher swarm.
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2021/12/24 07:36:50
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Azuza001 wrote:I mean, I have been running a brood of 9 warriors with the adaptive to give them +2 to armor in cover then run jormungunder so they are always in cover since the psycic awakening has been out. Between them just with 3w and the strat to reduce dmg by 1 to them, and a tyrand lord for +1 to bs to them that blob has never disappointed me. So yeah 1 Warrior blob is awaome.
@Azura001: Big warrior units are tough but it is a big investment and the damage output is very low. The opponent simply focus on the other tyranid units and start killing the warriors at round 3+.
I had a lot of discussion with Nilai in the past about warriors and even his confidence is crumbling now:
Niiai wrote:Melee tyrants needs wings. IMHO.
I also aquiered 6 new warriors. (I have 18 from before.) I wanted to do 3x2 scything tallons and the +1 bs. But is that really worth 66 points? I am growing unsure and loosing confidence.
Even now when there are more tyranid warrior upgrades, the don't cut it in my opinion. I would field them as cheap troops in my monster list so 3 of them with talons and nothing more (apart from synaptic link upgrade if needed). Keep them in the backfield on the objectives and let the big beasties go to town.
2021/12/24 08:32:03
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
You are such a rude person I can not belive it. I have 18 warriors and just got 6 more. How is that loosing confidence in them?
Warriors are an entirely different beast in a crusher stampede list. They loose their usual adaption (beeing on cover, or leviathan, both witch are excelent) but they gain 5++, witch does only kick in VS high ap weapons. They also gain a cp upgrade that is insane, for 1 CP they get permanent ws2+ bs3+, and this stacks with +1 to hit from a warrior synaptic lure or a prime. A blob that hits on 2+ (and can shoot again after your hive guards are dead) yes please.
They are also the only legal troop choise. And the cheapest unit you can field. But you need to match each one with a monster. And they share that tax with other potensial units: Lictors, hive guard, tyrant guard(?), neuronthropes, zonathropes and prime. With the cheapest good monster beeing the dakka carnifex at 120 points you are building and entirely different list then what we usual talk about. There is no MSU here. Troops that where our biggest strength is gone, and we might want more then 3 heavy support slots.
In addition to this you need to juggle synaptic upgrades. Warriors and malrceptor beeing the winners.
The biggest difference to warrior comparison is that all your other monsters just got hit with steroids. - 1 damage is huge for all. 5++ is huge for some.
Comparing regular warriors to crushing stampede warriors is a mistake. They are such entirely different beasts.
Warriors are an entirely different beast in a crusher stampede list. They loose their usual adaption (beeing on cover, or leviathan, both witch are excelent) but they gain 5++, witch does only kick in VS high ap weapons. They also gain a cp upgrade that is insane, for 1 CP they get permanent ws2+ bs3+, and this stacks with +1 to hit from a warrior synaptic lure or a prime. A blob that hits on 2+ (and can shoot again after your hive guards are dead) yes please.
They are also the only legal troop choise. And the cheapest unit you can field. But you need to match each one with a monster. And they share that tax with other potensial units: Lictors, hive guard, tyrant guard(?), neuronthropes, zonathropes and prime. With the cheapest good monster beeing the dakka carnifex at 120 points you are building and entirely different list then what we usual talk about. There is no MSU here. Troops that where our biggest strength is gone, and we might want more then 3 heavy support slots.
In addition to this you need to juggle synaptic upgrades. Warriors and malrceptor beeing the winners.
The biggest difference to warrior comparison is that all your other monsters just got hit with steroids. - 1 damage is huge for all. 5++ is huge for some.
Comparing regular warriors to crushing stampede warriors is a mistake. They are such entirely different beasts.
You don't have to list the rules... we know the rules and that doesn't say anything about if the work or not. You can increase the WS or BS but it is still not a great unit. With deatspitters and 2+ to hit they're a decent anti-infantry unit but even that is debatable if you compare them with other units. Anything you invest in them (inv save, feel no pain, reroll to hit, extra movement et cetera) is better used on other units. Apart from the warrior prime investment a full warrior unit with deathspitters and boneswords + synaptic link is about 240 points. Thats just as much as a scythed hierodule.
Give me a full armylist and make the argument how the can work with all the other tyranid units you field. Maybe it works for you in your casual vacuum bubble but I don't see how the work in any tournament setting apart from fielding cheap 3 warrior talon units with 5++ inv save in the stampede lists with possibly the synaptic link upgrade.
2021/12/24 19:31:01
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
I seem to remember that its a "If any objective secured models meet any other number of objective secured models (enemy), then it simply become whoever has the most models (regardless of objective secured)"
Clumsy wording but does that make sense?
I would have to look it up, but I Think that is it. That is why my plan is to use Mawloc to combo with MSU Warriors. But I do plan to look it up before I start playing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eihnlazer wrote: jormy warriors are great, but remember when your using crusher swarm you loose your regular hive fleet adaptation.
Basically crusher swarm is gonna be only leviathan atm to gain access to the full reroll WL trait, the -1 to wound relic, and the strat to turn a monster obsec. Those 3 things are too good to use any other hive fleet for the crusher swarm.
Yeah, If Crusher makes it into the Codex, I seriously hope it becomes useful with all Hive Fleets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The other goofy trick I heard was taking a Tervigon, and reserving a big chunk of points and spitting out Termagants that way. Is this the cheese we are looking for?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also is not there a strat? or does that rebuild a unit?
Automatically Appended Next Post: For maximum hilarity I was thinking Tyrannocytes with x3 Warriors inside That is a big wound beasty and a Obj secured to drop off to do missions etc. "I charge, with the Tyrannocyte, and I will use Break through...take "X" MW...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Warrior Synapse link means Tyrannocytes hit on 4's?
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/12/24 19:51:37
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2021/12/24 21:21:57
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Yeah, tyrannocytes are surprisingly less rubbish than before.
I completely blindsided an opponent the other day by using a t-cyte with venom cannon, turned into a synapse creature with an adaptation, and filled with shock cannon hive guard.
Expensive, and really only any use against big vehicles or knights, but also fun
I did like how having the T-cyte being synapse and shadow in the warp allowed me to drop my hive guard in wherever i anted and not have to put up with the negatives to hit from instinctive behaviour. It then spent the battle floating around taking potshots and increasing my coverage of synapse for giving units +1 to hit from my warriors ( ps, if the t-cyte survives the turn it drops in, using the warrior link on it the get 5 venom cannon hitting on 4's is surprisingly effective.)
2021/12/25 00:40:36
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Edit: When I explored the Assassin Tyrant, I was drawn to the invulerable-ignoring bone swords. After reviewing the (admittedly costly in CP) potential of a Hive Tyrant buffed by 2D3 attacks, I realised it can take down mortarion. Which is insane.
By ignoring the invunerable save, stacking murderous size along with the +D3 WLT & psychic power and spending a fair few CP on Thunderous impact, Voracious appetite, War on all fronts (a bit tricky, granted), Relentless Flurry and.... implant attack to finish it off? Thunderous impact with the +1 damage (big) and +1 to-wound (huge!) really help.
Assuming average of +4 attacks on 2D3 and no defensive strategems from Morty. But still.. that's insane.
I'm in love. Now I need to work out how to not fail on secondaries.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/12/26 02:34:24
I been out of the loop. So lictors not so good anymore? Was there an objective change or something? Also what’s the new monster rules in white dwarf any good?
2021/12/26 05:26:59
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Nitro Zeus wrote: I been out of the loop. So lictors not so good anymore? Was there an objective change or something? Also what’s the new monster rules in white dwarf any good?
The 2022 mission pack is changing the Retrieve Data secondary objective so that the unit performing the action must roll equal to or under the number of models in the unit to score points. The poor Lictor can only score points on a roll of 1. Admittedly, there are other action objectives that Lictors can perform, and they still have their Pheromone Trail for bringing in reserves.
The Crusher Stampede has some interesting rules. It makes monsters tougher (5++ and -1 damage) and lets them count their wounds for the purposes of objectives, but it severely restricts infantry options to only mid-sized 'nids (warriors, 'thropes, 'vores, guards) and requires one monster for each infantry unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/26 05:44:38
2021/12/26 06:00:27
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Razerous wrote: When I explored the Assassin Tyrant, I was drawn to the invulerable-ignoring bone swords. After reviewing the (admittedly costly in CP) potential of a Hive Tyrant buffed by 2D3 attacks, I realised it can take down mortarion. Which is insane.
By ignoring the invunerable save, stacking murderous size along with the +D3 WLT & psychic power and spending a fair few CP on Thunderous impact, Voracious appetite, War on all fronts (a bit tricky, granted), Relentless Flurry and.... implant attack to finish it off? Thunderous impact with the +1 damage (big) and +1 to-wound (huge!) really help.
Assuming average of +4 attacks on 2D3 and no defensive strategems from Morty. But still.. that's insane.
I'm in love. Now I need to work out how to not fail on secondaries.
Thats a big investment for a unit that can be shot down with lascannons. I would rather make it tougher so that he may actually get in close combat. -1 to wound (carapace) might be better. regular monsterous boneswords with the extra d3 attacks and other stratagem upgrades already kills a lot of units. So many good stratagems that I rather use the neural lobe relic so that i get more CP!
Nitro Zeus wrote:Hmm thx. I found the stampede rules, not sold at all. Cool addition to the game for people who wanna play like that though.
I think the 'count as a model for every wound regarding objectives' is pretty good in combination with the leviathan stratagem to make one unit objective secured. This really helps with primary objectives. I think that is going to make some waves but it is not going to win tournaments, i guess. Lot's of lascannons and melta weapons don't care about -1 damage and a 5++ save.
2021/12/26 09:40:06
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
How long have you been out of the loop zeuz? I am returning after a long SW hiatus. I really like the fun look of the monster mash list. - 1 damage is great.
2022 mission packs will bring other changes as well. In short it looks like the mission spesific mission will be rolled into primary. And the points for holding points on primary will be reduced. So you are now attempting 4 things. Hold points, mission spesific mission and 3 secondaries.
I am shure tyranids will be fine. It will affect more armies then ours. A lot of our bad troops got a boost from octarion. Making gargoyles objective secure should make them good at doing missions for instance.
Razous my eye has also been draw to the assassin hive tyrant. One of my friends play Mortarion spesifically. I thought Mortarion had some rules that denyed re-rolls, a psykick power to give - 1 to hit, and something that ignored auras? But I might be mixing them up.
One youtube channel suggested void crown and psykick secondaries on a neuronthrope. I think they went with psykick interrogation. It might not be bad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/26 09:48:07
Regarding psychic secondaries, specifically psychic interrogation.. it requires your opponent to do things i.e. move or not move a character to within ~30" of a psyker. So tricky? But no LoS is nice.
Pierce the veil requires you to be in the middle and our big psychic bugs want to be using the amazing nidz powers and we don't have many cheap psychic bugs. Big shrug?
There is no auras to speak off & I'm fairly sure within that lists of strategems is a +1 to hit which counters the -1 to hit. Hence why the war on all fronts being useful just for the RR 1's to hit.
Edit: On the subject of Morty... Gloaming Bloat is a truly horrdenous warlord trait. No re-rolls allowed (to hit or to wound). All praise Morty
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/26 16:58:15
Nitro Zeus wrote:Hmm thx. I found the stampede rules, not sold at all. Cool addition to the game for people who wanna play like that though.
I think the 'count as a model for every wound regarding objectives' is pretty good in combination with the leviathan stratagem to make one unit objective secured. This really helps with primary objectives. I think that is going to make some waves but it is not going to win tournaments, i guess. Lot's of lascannons and melta weapons don't care about -1 damage and a 5++ save.
it adds so much!! but i just dont think its better than the advantages that aren't factored in as easily numerically.... Kraken buffs and termagant troops are huge and are literally the only reason I win every game lol. As a Nidzilla player, I don't hate it at all I'm just not about to swap playstyle for it
2021/12/26 19:17:39
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Its not about the new lazcannons, its about how all the D2 and D3 weapons get affected by the -1d. There are alot of D2 and D3 in the game which get absolutely wrecked by -1d.
It also does help against meltas and lazcannons.
Lazcannons now have a 33% chance to do 1 damage and a 0% chance to do 6.
Super laz go down to D3+2 and meltas in half range are only D6+1.
Combined with the -1 to be wounded relic, our hive tyrants are alot more survivable.
Poor custodes used to poon nids that didnt spam hive guard and zoans, now a custodes player is sweating hard against the crusher stampede.
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2021/12/27 11:07:40
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Eihnlazer wrote: Its not about the new lazcannons, its about how all the D2 and D3 weapons get affected by the -1d. There are alot of D2 and D3 in the game which get absolutely wrecked by -1d.
It also does help against meltas and lazcannons.
Lazcannons now have a 33% chance to do 1 damage and a 0% chance to do 6.
Super laz go down to D3+2 and meltas in half range are only D6+1.
Combined with the -1 to be wounded relic, our hive tyrants are alot more survivable.
Poor custodes used to poon nids that didnt spam hive guard and zoans, now a custodes player is sweating hard against the crusher stampede.
that's all true but you still got to do damage yourself or keep claiming objectives up to round 5, or else the enemy simply needs 4 turns to take them out instead of 3. Against ad mech lascannon chickens, ork mek gunz, dark lances/blasters, melta rifles, plasma redemptors et cetera, the damage output is all over the place. I once lost 3 armingers turn one because the ork player got 20+ shots with his 5 mek guns and also a high damage result. A simple 5+ inv could prevent 5 wounds so if you're lucky with your rolls that could also prevent a lot of damage. It is very swingy (is that an English word??).
I also play thousand sons and I would fear the 10 terminators with full shooting power and the +1 to wound stratagem. Storm bolters with 1 damage and -2 ap don't care about the -1 damage and 5++, apart from all the extra mortal wounds..
But back to tactics...
I'am going to try the following list because i would like to see how long this tough bubble can last:
EL: 5 tyrant guard
EL: 6 tyrant guard (procency of the hive stratagem- ignore -1 and -2ap upgrade)
EL: Maleceptor
HY: Scythed hierodule
I'am going to move them as one big bubble towards mid-field and tough them up with -1 strenght against shooting (maleceptor), 1- to hit, -1 damage for MC with stampede and other upgrades (Catalyst, 4++, cover from the broodlord synaptic link upgrade).
I should be able to take two rounds of shooting before everything attacks!
Would like to try this...
2021/12/27 21:07:44
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
This list is amazing btw, tabled another tyranid players crusher swarm on turn 4. It can start slow and needs to be careful with deployment against strong shooting armies, but will utterly out-attrition other elite builds and really mess up the movement of infantry heavy stuff. Light transports go down with no problem so its not worried about harlies and deldar either.
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2021/12/28 08:55:01
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
This list is amazing btw, tabled another tyranid players crusher swarm on turn 4. It can start slow and needs to be careful with deployment against strong shooting armies, but will utterly out-attrition other elite builds and really mess up the movement of infantry heavy stuff. Light transports go down with no problem so its not worried about harlies and deldar either.
Very situational...
Sporocyst don't get detachment rules, right (fortifications)? So no -1 damage and 5++ for them...
You need first turn and not face a lot of enemy units that can fly because otherwise it gets tough. If an Ork player gets first turn and moves agressive then the own the mid field and you're done.
Enemy players need to sacrifice units against spore mines so that the detonate all against that specific unit or model. A smart player knows this but other players might be out of their comfort zone and don't know how to deal with this. Nothing more fun then blocking a big knight from moving forward with 3 spore mines. You shall not pass!!!!
2021/12/28 13:34:03
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
They do get detachment rules, since they are monsters. Your thinking about Auxillary Super Heavy detachments (which do not benefit from hive fleet rules).
You dont have to get first turn, but it helps alot. The sporocysts get scout deploy, but can be placed inside or behind terrain so as to not be shootable turn one (just note they most likely wont get to shoot their venom cannons if they cant get shot either).
All the biovore spores are single man units so you cant really bait them or shoot them effectively. The 3 man units from the sporocysts will all pop at the same time, but the mortals they deal are not limited to only the models within 3" (the rule says when the spore explodes it deals damage ot the nearest enemy unit, not the one that triggered the explosion).
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Hive Guard are still the best of the best...but screens are an issue. 
Nids are winning top tables by playing the mission, and maxing secondaries. So a full understanding of what has been added, and what has been taken away is needed. Nidzilla needs help for the secondaries.
Is this the cheese we are looking for? 
