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I haven't seen much talk on this one, but 3 vindicators producing a single S10 AP2 ordnance 10" blast w/ ignore cover seems like it should get some love.
Seems like the perfect team for Coteaz and pesky deep striking threats.

How do you figure? Coteaz has to be in the unit to use his power, and it's only a 12" range. While the Vindicators are only 24". So sure, they can really hurt a unit but so can a normal Vindicator.

And how often do you need a 10" blast? If an enemy is Deep Striking that close to your units to be within range, chances are they have a way to prevent scatter and be VERY close. Within five inches for sure. Within the radius of the big blast marker. So you'd be hitting your own units with a S10 AP2 marker.

No, Coteaz and Plasma Cannons is still my personal defense. There are plenty of uses for three Vindicators, but remember that all three have to be able to shoot for that power to work, and defense isn't the best way to use them. Aggressively wipe out entire sections of things like tarpit units, Eldar Jetbikes, hordes and squadrons.

I could see them being useful in a Hammer of Caliban formation where the LR can take hits for and protect the vindicators.

Coteaz can ride that Land Raider too, making him in the same unit as the vindies.

EDIT -- sorry -- pre-coffee nonsense -- he's embarked but he is clearly not in the same unit!

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
How do you figure? Coteaz has to be in the unit to use his power, and it's only a 12" range. While the Vindicators are only 24". So sure, they can really hurt a unit but so can a normal Vindicator.

Sorry, thinking old Coteaz where he could do it to a nearby unit.

Still, S10 AP2 10" blast is going to catch quite a few of those ravenwing bikes who are rocking the 2+ re-rollable cover save on turn 1. No cover for you.

It certainly would. Along with a Heldrake, Burning Brand of Skalathrax, Land Raider Redeemer, Deimos Predator, Baal Predator, Hellhound, Malcador Infernus and so many other Template AP3 weapons for a lot less points than three Vindicators. And realistically, the range difference isn't that great. I don't see three Vindicators being a competitive choice outside of Armour Spam using that one Formation in the codex.

A single Typhon Seige Tank is less points by 10, has some good buffs and while it has less HP, it is an AV14 Super Heavy. So it can't be Crew Shaken-ed or Weapon Destroyed, can fire more weapons besides the main cannon if they're purchased and blah blah blah. I would rather have that 7" Blast AP1 going until the tank dies than a 10" AP2 dependent on all three being able to shoot each turn.

However since they are a formation, as BA (and therefore BB), I can take my three vindis (which happen to be red) and three of my Baals without having to go for 2 CAD! Thank you for this thread!

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
It certainly would. Along with a Heldrake, Burning Brand of Skalathrax, Land Raider Redeemer, Deimos Predator, Baal Predator, Hellhound, Malcador Infernus and so many other Template AP3 weapons for a lot less points than three Vindicators. And realistically, the range difference isn't that great. I don't see three Vindicators being a competitive choice outside of Armour Spam using that one Formation in the codex.

Hell hound is AP4, so you're still dealing with 3+ armor. Burning Brand needs 5+ to wound. Redeemer and Baal pred have terrible range, 14" max reach is a lot different than 35" max reach.
Battle of Keylek pred drops 3 S7 AP2 small blasts, which means 1-2 hits per template, at 145 points, and taking up your only relic of the armor slot.
As for the super heavies, the formation also ignores crew shaken and stunned results if within 6" of the techmarine, and the tech marine gains +1 to his repair rolls.

And if all that fails, you can still opt to fire 3 S10 AP2 large blasts, and let your opponent take his cover saves.

-Matt

I've used it already, this unit sucks pretty badly for the same reason vindicators already sucked. Sure, it's a big scary blast, but it costs 360pts and relies on all three being alive. With max spacing and hilariously enough the new 32mm bases these things will only get a few models per shot and blow ass against vehicles and MC's.


Short answer is to pass on it.

But it is not in a vacume. Eldar Jetbikes don't suck because they can't take on av13 and 14. You just use other units for that roll.

Poly Ranger wrote:
But it is not in a vacume. Eldar Jetbikes don't suck because they can't take on av13 and 14. You just use other units for that roll.

What vacuum? I said I've used the silly unit and it sucks. 24" direct fire means your lucky if you get a quality shot before scatter then you can kiss the unit goodbye. A 7" blast is not that big, go measure it out if you don't believe me. The unit is 360 points for feths sake, saying take other units doesn't cut it, a 360 point unit that only shoots needs to be able to engage most units, not being able to take on MC's, vehicles or fliers makes that unit bust.

I use 7" blasts regularly. However it is apparently a 10" blast.
You said it was poor because it would 'blow ass' against MCs and vehicles. Hence the comment.
And if you lose a vindi you still have 2 normal vindis, which, whilst not being a game breaking unit, are definitely not poor units.

Heck the unit sucks against hordes even, a 7" blast will never kill 360 pts worth of scrubs, thats ALOT of GEQ and if you fire 3 times they will get cover and it become s cumbersome to get all 3 as a unit in range and LOS.

Grav can't take on horde - does that make grav totting units poor units?

Poly Ranger wrote:
I use 7" blasts regularly. However it is apparently a 10" blast.
You said it was poor because it would 'blow ass' against MCs and vehicles. Hence the comment.
And if you lose a vindi you still have 2 normal vindis, which, whilst not being a game breaking unit, are definitely not poor units.

Sorry I meant 10" but was thinking of the 7" radius apoc, the 10" diameter is even worse. If you think vindis are good then I won't bother debating with you since blasts in general are terrible in 40k unless they are multiple barrage.

2 vinis are poor, 240 pts that struggle against all the meta units.

It will be great against:
Meq infantry
Bikes
Jetbikes
Horde (10" is big no matter what you say)
Teq
FNP
RP
Vehicle squadrons

Poly Ranger wrote:
Grav can't take on horde - does that make grav totting units poor units?

No because most grav toting units have bolters grav amps or are point efficient, try again. Also, notice how large blasts on vindis struggle against MC's, FMC's, Vehicles and are incredibly vulnerable. They also are not point efficient against horde.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I use 7" blasts regularly. However it is apparently a 10" blast.
You said it was poor because it would 'blow ass' against MCs and vehicles. Hence the comment.
And if you lose a vindi you still have 2 normal vindis, which, whilst not being a game breaking unit, are definitely not poor units.

Sorry I meant 10" but was thinking of the 7" radius apoc, the 10" diameter is even worse. If you think vindis are good then I won't bother debating with you since blasts in general are terrible in 40k unless they are multiple barrage.

2 vinis are poor, 240 pts that struggle against all the meta units.

Well that is a really poor attitude to have in a forum for debates. I never said vindis were great, I said they weren't poor. I used to very successfully run a 3 vindi - 3 flamestorm baal list with the old BA dex, despite it being an overcosted dex. Vindis can do very well in the right list. Dismissing it because you don't like them in your particular lists doesn't mean you can't make them work.

Poly Ranger wrote:
It will be great against:
Meq infantry
Bikes
Jetbikes
Horde (10" is big no matter what you say)
Teq
FNP
RP
Vehicle squadrons

MEQ how? You play alot of marine armies that deploy without rhinos or pods? I would question your crap meta then first.

Bikes and jetbikes are fast enough to get the drop or avoid the tanks.

TEQ suck, so I don't see your arguement. A unit can pick on the worst type of infantry in the game? Good job! Hardly an endorsement.

FNP? Sure I guess, this one is so vague I don't know what your point is.

RP actually ironically doesn't care, in a decurion with a cryptek and a nearby lord will laugh off the unit then kill it with guass.

Vehicle sqadrons can stay 4" apart, you know this right?

 Red Corsair wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Grav can't take on horde - does that make grav totting units poor units?

No because most grav toting units have bolters grav amps or are point efficient, try again. Also, notice how large blasts on vindis struggle against MC's, FMC's, Vehicles and are incredibly vulnerable. They also are not point efficient against horde.

Banner of devestation was poor because the bolters it increased couldn't harm vehicles.
Sternguard special ammo is poor because it is useless against vehicles.
Flamers are useless because they can't harm vehicles.
DE poison is useless because it can't harm vehicles.
Laser destroyers are useless because they can only kill 1 geq a turn.
Spawn are useless because they can't catch flyers.
Flayed ones are useless because they can't catch flyers.
Dire Avengers are useless because they can't hurt anything above av10.
Most MCs are useless because they only get 1 st10 attack to be able to harm walkers.
Conscripts are useless because they can hardly harm anything.

There we go, tried again. I could go on. For hours. Want me to?

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I use 7" blasts regularly. However it is apparently a 10" blast.
You said it was poor because it would 'blow ass' against MCs and vehicles. Hence the comment.
And if you lose a vindi you still have 2 normal vindis, which, whilst not being a game breaking unit, are definitely not poor units.

Sorry I meant 10" but was thinking of the 7" radius apoc, the 10" diameter is even worse. If you think vindis are good then I won't bother debating with you since blasts in general are terrible in 40k unless they are multiple barrage.

2 vinis are poor, 240 pts that struggle against all the meta units.

Well that is a really poor attitude to have in a forum for debates. I never said vindis were great, I said they weren't poor. I used to very successfully run a 3 vindi - 3 flamestorm baal list with the old BA dex, despite it being an overcosted dex. Vindis can do very well in the right list. Dismissing it because you don't like them in your particular lists doesn't mean you can't make them work.

OK but why try to MAKE them work. If you need to try to make a unit function at it's role then it's a bad unit. I have owned 3 of them since 3rd, every edition they get worse mainly because of how poor blasts are. In this edition and the last its even worse since their best roll was super elite units. Only because of crap wound allocation from the front even against most deathstars there will be an EW tank up front with 4w and an invuln or they will be invised, or fast if not all the above.

Against MSU or GEQ they just aren't efficient at 360 pts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Grav can't take on horde - does that make grav totting units poor units?

No because most grav toting units have bolters grav amps or are point efficient, try again. Also, notice how large blasts on vindis struggle against MC's, FMC's, Vehicles and are incredibly vulnerable. They also are not point efficient against horde.

Banner of devestation was poor because the bolters it increased couldn't harm vehicles.
Sternguard special ammo is poor because it is useless against vehicles.
Flamers are useless because they can't harm vehicles.
DE poison is useless because it can't harm vehicles.
Laser destroyers are useless because they can only kill 1 geq a turn.
Spawn are useless because they can't catch flyers.
Flayed ones are useless because they can't catch flyers.
Dire Avengers are useless because they can't hurt anything above av10.
Most MCs are useless because they only get 1 st10 attack to be able to harm walkers.
Conscripts are useless because they can hardly harm anything.

There we go, tried again. I could go on. For hours. Want me to?

OK, hows this then. Have you tried the unit honestly or are you talking out your rear? I have used the unit serveral times to give it a shot and from experience, not a vacuum playing good to even moderate lists, they won't get their points back and create a major plug in your line since they can all only move 6" as land tanks and fire.

But sure, keep arguing with pure conjecture.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
It will be great against:
Meq infantry
Bikes
Jetbikes
Horde (10" is big no matter what you say)
Teq
FNP
RP
Vehicle squadrons

MEQ how? You play alot of marine armies that deploy without rhinos or pods? I would question your crap meta then first.

Bikes and jetbikes are fast enough to get the drop or avoid the tanks.

TEQ suck, so I don't see your arguement. A unit can pick on the worst type of infantry in the game? Good job! Hardly an endorsement.

FNP? Sure I guess, this one is so vague I don't know what your point is.

RP actually ironically doesn't care, in a decurion with a cryptek and a nearby lord will laugh off the unit then kill it with guass.

Vehicle sqadrons can stay 4" apart, you know this right?

Meq. Have you EVER played a game where the meq units never actually touched the board? Because that would have been a pretty unusual game. Use something else to pip the rhinos then dust them.

Bikes and jetbikes. With a 30" threat range, and av13 front armour, those melta/grav bikes and scatterbikes (need side armour) need to come within that range. Otherwise - A 360pt unit making bikes stay in their own deployment zone all game? Excellent value!

Teq. Not all teq is the worst in the game. Centurions (also ID'd by this), oblitorators and SG feature as strong components in many lists.

FnP is cancelled out on T5 or less units. I thought that point was self evident.

RP being reduced by 1 on multiple models this hits is a good thing. Not a bad thing.

Vehicles. It is a 5" radius. Scatter involved and you are very likely hitting 2 if not 3 vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I use 7" blasts regularly. However it is apparently a 10" blast.
You said it was poor because it would 'blow ass' against MCs and vehicles. Hence the comment.
And if you lose a vindi you still have 2 normal vindis, which, whilst not being a game breaking unit, are definitely not poor units.

Sorry I meant 10" but was thinking of the 7" radius apoc, the 10" diameter is even worse. If you think vindis are good then I won't bother debating with you since blasts in general are terrible in 40k unless they are multiple barrage.

2 vinis are poor, 240 pts that struggle against all the meta units.

Well that is a really poor attitude to have in a forum for debates. I never said vindis were great, I said they weren't poor. I used to very successfully run a 3 vindi - 3 flamestorm baal list with the old BA dex, despite it being an overcosted dex. Vindis can do very well in the right list. Dismissing it because you don't like them in your particular lists doesn't mean you can't make them work.

OK but why try to MAKE them work. If you need to try to make a unit function at it's role then it's a bad unit. I have owned 3 of them since 3rd, every edition they get worse mainly because of how poor blasts are. In this edition and the last its even worse since their best roll was super elite units. Only because of crap wound allocation from the front even against most deathstars there will be an EW tank up front with 4w and an invuln or they will be invised, or fast if not all the above.

Against MSU or GEQ they just aren't efficient at 360 pts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Grav can't take on horde - does that make grav totting units poor units?

No because most grav toting units have bolters grav amps or are point efficient, try again. Also, notice how large blasts on vindis struggle against MC's, FMC's, Vehicles and are incredibly vulnerable. They also are not point efficient against horde.

Banner of devestation was poor because the bolters it increased couldn't harm vehicles.
Sternguard special ammo is poor because it is useless against vehicles.
Flamers are useless because they can't harm vehicles.
DE poison is useless because it can't harm vehicles.
Laser destroyers are useless because they can only kill 1 geq a turn.
Spawn are useless because they can't catch flyers.
Flayed ones are useless because they can't catch flyers.
Dire Avengers are useless because they can't hurt anything above av10.
Most MCs are useless because they only get 1 st10 attack to be able to harm walkers.
Conscripts are useless because they can hardly harm anything.

There we go, tried again. I could go on. For hours. Want me to?

OK, hows this then. Have you tried the unit honestly or are you talking out your rear? I have used the unit serveral times to give it a shot and from experience, not a vacuum playing good to even moderate lists, they won't get their points back and create a major plug in your line since they can all only move 6" as land tanks and fire.

But sure, keep arguing with pure conjecture.

Woah. You really have a shocking attitude! Calm down man!

No I have not used the unit itself yet, as is evident by my post earlier in the thread. However I have used a Typhon numerous times and as stated - I've used plenty of vindis in the past. I've also used Earthshakers consistently in my R&H armies. So yes - I do have plenty of experience with high strength low ap ignores cover blasts. And vindis.

Actually I rarely see MEQ touch the board early unless podding in. I'd say your playing strange games or bad opponents if they deploy outside their tanks.

Say "pop them" is a weak response mate. Again 360 pts unit whose role is fire support, requiring more fire support before it can do its job? OK, I'll humor you, some "thing" just pops my 3hp tank efficiently from range, OK I am good at the game so I send one combat squad out the right side and one out the left in such a way that you can only get one unit under the template (easy as feth to do). congrats you spent what ~500pts at least killing a rhino and 5 marines? Yea, I'd call that awful.

In what world is your moron opponent deploying his cents in range of that unit without a shield eternal tank or draigo out front?

Yea I know FnP is cancelled, tell me what specifically your targeting, bike commands? Because once again your playing a moron if he leaves that unit in range without a tank out front.

32mm bases mate, they make shooting armies better! Not worse, you'll get a handful under the blast then they still get a 4+++ rerolling 1's in a decurion with a warlord within 12" if they have a cryptek. Your not killing 360pts.

OK, again, what vehicles squadrons are you talking about? Other marine ones?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What attitude? I am being cheeky I assure you I am not upset, and not trying to offend I assure you.

This formation is not a typhon though, not even remotely.

You have only ever seen a cent unit with draigo or a SE chapter master? I pity the lack of variety in your meta then.
In a 1850pt game, saying that 1490pts of the rest of your army can pop a rhino is not a weak response. And if you combat squad and I can only catch 5 marines in the blast (because we are assuming there are no other units around), then yeh ok 5 dead marines, absolute worst case scenario. Or I play the game properly and drop 1 vindi on each with the last as backup in case of bad scatter or one unit being lucky enough to be in 4+ cover. So realisitcally 8-9 dead marines.
Let me ask - do you expect units to kill their equivalent points in just one round of shooting?
I play necrons and let me tell you - it is not easy to build a decurion with crypteks in it as taking a royal court more often than not dilutes your list. When was the last time you saw a decurion with a cryptek in it? Especially since you get 4+ from decurion most of the time anyway and a cryptek only helps against st8+, for which you have to pay a lord and overlord tax.

Vehicle squadrons are in the following armies:
SMs
DAs
BAs
IG
Orks
CSMs (IA:13)
R&H (IA:13)
Tau
Eldar
Maybe more, not sure off the top of my head.

Many of which are low armour (Anything ork, Many IG, Land speeders, Many R&H etc.), although tbf even AV14 has a decent chance to suffer a glance or pen due to otdnance.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok i'll take your word that you're not trying to offend, but it is hard not to think that with the way it was put across. The tone is always lost on the internet.

Playing with a 7" blast isn't playing with a 10" blast.
That 10" blast is more than twice the area of a 7" blast. (~78 sq inches vs ~38 sq inches)

I honestly didn't look twice at the unit until I got hit twice with a 10" eldrich storm. The vindicators have the same template as eldrich, but are AP2 instead of 3, ignore cover and cause instant death to anything T5 or less.

This is not a tough decision for me.

Fact 1; Vindicators by themselves are poor. They've been poor for 2-3 editions now, and will continue to be so until there's sweeping changes in the base rules. Limited range, mediocrity of blast weapons and AV11 side armor doesn't WOW anymore.
Fact 2; The 10" ignores cover blast is pretty good....if you have an appropriate target. This has always been an issue with vindicators, they are not great against crap infantry, and monstrous creatures and a slew of other units and optimal targets make them a top priority to kill for you opponent.
Fact 3; This formation goes from situationally good back to poor after 1 weapon destroyed or vehicle destroyed result.

It's too fragile and situational to take in an all comers list. You'd be better off with a Typhon in my opinion. Smaller blast, but a LOT less fragile and up to a 48" range. I think some of the Knight Titans are around ~360 points as well, why not one of them instead?

If I had 6 vindicators, I'd run them as part of an armored spear head in a battle company.
6 vindicators and a whirlwind, along with 8-10 free tanks is a lot of tread on the table.

White Scars gives those 8-10 transports scout to get out front and block up some line of sight.

It's worse than that, isn't it? If any of them can't fire (i.e. pretty much any of the pen results other than immobilized), the unit can't fire the blast that turn. (And if the one that's been stunned is the lead one and the only one in range... they can't fire normally either.)

To be fair, I've only ever seen Vindis on the table once, I popped one and stunned the other turn 1, then took it out turn 2 before they ever fired, so I may be a bit biased against them.

Mavnas wrote:
It's worse than that, isn't it? If any of them can't fire (i.e. pretty much any of the pen results other than immobilized), the unit can't fire the blast that turn. (And if the one that's been stunned is the lead one and the only one in range... they can't fire normally either.)

To be fair, I've only ever seen Vindis on the table once, I popped one and stunned the other turn 1, then took it out turn 2 before they ever fired, so I may be a bit biased against them.

In the spearhead, they are immune to shake and stun.

Without somehow giving the vindis a scout move or outflank there is literally no chance you are ever firing this 3 man unit without terribly bad rolls from the enemy. Even then - it's just 1 shot and cant do too much damage to a lot of really strong units.

If you want to make stuff hurt - for much less - and much more reliably. Take the suppression force.

3x
TL and shred wirlwinds

Can hide behind LOS blocking terrain with TL large blasts.
Can ether use ignore cover to wreck light infantry or use str 5 to hurt more tough units with invo saves and just force a lot of saves. You need to take an auxillary force anyways in your gladius so why not use this one? It's cheap and effective.