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I was extremely disappointed by the lack of full lists compared to V1. This has negatively impacted on the group of players I was hoping to get into KoW. I am going to buy the book (like I bought V1) but I wanted to guage dakka's response to this. It may be I am just a minority who has gone from mantic fanatic to....jaded.

I just want to see how you guys feel??

I will admit I was a little disappointing about this too. I only heard about the free rules a few days ago (4 days?) and nothing about limited lists was mentioned. If I enjoy a game I, like most people I am sure, buy the rules. But how can I enjoy a game when I potentially cannot play important parts of my army?

So while this is a pain, we have the book pre ordered anyway. Just would have been nice to actually try out our armies before the book finally arrives thats all.

So annoying, but still gonna give it a chance.

It's disappointing, and I didn't really know it was happening. Did I miss some news that made it clear that the free rules would be limited?

I've sold a friend on KoW based on the free rules too, and hopefully he'll still be ok with this.

Not a big deal. Final version of the Beta lists are here, and it looks like they've changed nothing on what was released:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nhZLDFOHUXC2MCA6NwYQWr0HF2mSyvEWIlNH4oCtBeQ/htmlview#gid=1243412207

And the minor faction lists that won't be in the rule book and are still being worked on are here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nhZLDFOHUXC2MCA6NwYQWr0HF2mSyvEWIlNH4oCtBeQ/htmlview#gid=1243412207

The rules you downloaded are complete, so there you are. Not everything is in a nice neat PDF, but you still have the lists right there.

Ah, thanks. Maybe I've misunderstood the situation then.

I assumed the full lists would be out but they obviously took a different approach. It sounds like they will add to the sample lists as they do model reveals.

I did too, but I compared what was released to the beta lists and I didn't see any differences, so my basic assumption is the Beta lists are still what's being published.

 Xyxox wrote:
I did too, but I compared what was released to the beta lists and I didn't see any differences, so my basic assumption is the Beta lists are still what's being published.

Yes, that's what's in the book.

 mattjgilbert wrote:

 Xyxox wrote:
I did too, but I compared what was released to the beta lists and I didn't see any differences, so my basic assumption is the Beta lists are still what's being published.

Yes, that's what's in the book.

That's cool because I was using the Beta lists workbook to create a list creator worksheet.

I was hoping to use this, but unfortunately I see some points values that are not up to date (the abyssal dwarf war engines, for instance):

http://kow.easyarmy.com/

Will just use the google doc Xyxox posted above instead, though

 Xyxox wrote:
I did too, but I compared what was released to the beta lists and I didn't see any differences, so my basic assumption is the Beta lists are still what's being published.

There are units missing. Wights, Undead Trolls, Skeleton archers, etc. That's just the ones I've noticed from the Undead list. I expect entire units will be missing from all the others as well. Abyssals got released to Beasts of War instead of KS backers. And there's no guarantee that the 2.4 Beta lists are going to be identical to the eventual "full" PDF.

It won't affect me, but it's a typically dumbarse move from Mantic that's only going to hurt them.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Xyxox wrote:
I did too, but I compared what was released to the beta lists and I didn't see any differences, so my basic assumption is the Beta lists are still what's being published.

There are units missing. Wights, Undead Trolls, Skeleton archers, etc. That's just the ones I've noticed from the Undead list. I expect entire units will be missing from all the others as well. Abyssals got released to Beasts of War instead of KS backers. And there's no guarantee that the 2.4 Beta lists are going to be identical to the eventual "full" PDF.

It won't affect me, but it's a typically dumbarse move from Mantic that's only going to hurt them.

I reckon they will cave in quickly and fix it to be honest. I hope they do anyway.

I just downloaded the 2.5 from Xyxox's link above and then found I already had a 2.5 in my downloads folder.

I compared the one I just downloaded to the one I had from a month or whenever ago and found that the Jar of the Four Winds is 25pts in one list and 35pts in the other. Despite both being "2.5".

So basically, feth this gak. I don't have time to waste trying to update my armies or bothering to try and play a game when it's still going to need more fixing afterwards and the "latest" documents contradict one another and are incomplete. I'll paint models and play other games until Mantic gets their gak together. Because feth this bs.

To each their own. This was the only list I've ever had.

Have fun where ever you land!

It's also been said that there are additional changes between the list you linked above and the "final" version that was sent to the printers and the basis for the cut-down lists they released.

If Matt or Daedle could confirm this either way, it'd be appreciated.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seems like the Damage Control Moderation has just kicked in over at Mantic.

I attempted to post this (much more measured and diplomatic than what I posted here) and got an automatic "Your comment will be looked at by a moderator" message. Which is odd, since my previous post was literally "So where are the wights?" before discovering that the army lists are truncated and previous posts have been contributions, etc in the Beta section.


It's poor form whatever way you look at it. A combination of what has become habitual promising of one thing only to deliver something else, and habitual poor communication. I'll get the full rules in a month or so anyway, but it's a terribly squandered opportunity in light of the Age of Sigmar. Mantic's supporters (including the RC) have been talking to their Warhammering friends about full, free, great rules for some time, only to have what is in this context a very disappointing release from Mantic in terms of "taster" army lists, a BoW paywall for the Abyssals, and the full rules still a month(?) away for KS backers. I don't have time to waste mucking around with silly half-arsed rules release, so I'll play other games in the meantime and now won't be bothering to hype KoW or run KoW games for my friends. (I'd already sent out links to the free rules to several friends, only to send out an apologetic followup email with an explanation of all the missing content.)

A fantastic opportunity squandered.

 Azazelx wrote:
It's also been said that there are additional changes between the list you linked above and the "final" version that was sent to the printers and the basis for the cut-down lists they released.

If Matt or Daedle could confirm this either way, it'd be appreciated.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seems like the Damage Control Moderation has just kicked in over at Mantic.

I attempted to post this (much more measured and diplomatic than what I posted here) and got an automatic "Your comment will be looked at by a moderator" message. Which is odd, since my previous post was literally "So where are the wights?" before discovering that the army lists are truncated and previous posts have been contributions, etc in the Beta section.


It's poor form whatever way you look at it. A combination of what has become habitual promising of one thing only to deliver something else, and habitual poor communication. I'll get the full rules in a month or so anyway, but it's a terribly squandered opportunity in light of the Age of Sigmar. Mantic's supporters (including the RC) have been talking to their Warhammering friends about full, free, great rules for some time, only to have what is in this context a very disappointing release from Mantic in terms of "taster" army lists, a BoW paywall for the Abyssals, and the full rules still a month(?) away for KS backers. I don't have time to waste mucking around with silly half-arsed rules release, so I'll play other games in the meantime and now won't be bothering to hype KoW or run KoW games for my friends. (I'd already sent out links to the free rules to several friends, only to send out an apologetic followup email with an explanation of all the missing content.)

A fantastic opportunity squandered.

That's just the goofy automatic moderation on that forum. About one in four threads I post there get that. Your thread about wights is up over there, if that's the one you were talking about.

Matt confirmed, the list I linked is what went to the printers:

 mattjgilbert wrote:

 Xyxox wrote:
I did too, but I compared what was released to the beta lists and I didn't see any differences, so my basic assumption is the Beta lists are still what's being published.

Yes, that's what's in the book.

The wights one is the previous post that got through. I mentioned it to give context that I haven't been on their forum writing up insane rants, etc.

Anyway, I wrote up a blog post based on what I (tried to?) post on the Mantic forums and now have it (mostly) out of my system, though I'm still quite disappointed in Mantic. Ah well. What's done is done.

I feel like Mantic is that good friend who everyone likes but he has his own shortcomings like always being perpetullay late or promising to come to certain events but always failing to show up.

I mean, you love him still but that gak is annoying.

This won't hurt them in the least. People line up in droves to throw money at Mantic's Kickstarters.
The same folks pissed about this will drop several hundred bucks the next time an early bird shows its tail feathers.

There are a couple of minor changes that have been made after the end of the beta test. The points on the jar of four winds was one after some additional playtests. The giant's rule about never being hindered was turned into a special rule for reuse. A red goblin character was added. I can't think of any more off the top of my head.

The spreadsheets should never be taken as 100% gospel. 99.5% sure, but we continued to tidy up after the public playtest.

I like mantic products. I back kickstarters for mantic. I like the KoW rules. They were amazing running the tourney in my area.

I will still be enthusiastic about the game and happy with the product. But that doesn't stop me or make less valid my concerns, disappointment and criticism! The biggest is the fact I've been selling free AWE-some rules and army lists as a USP to my friends. Now that may be because me and a great deal of other people misunderstood the point of yesterday...regardless of that what we got was a cut down list from V1 (which even though I own the old rules and love the book) was free to download. We assumed continuity with V1.

It's already put off several people I had got lined up to play.

It seems like yesterday was not a success and as someone who wants KoW to grow in player base and am enthusiastic about Mantic it is clear that making some lists behind the scenes at Bow and cutting content is not a good way to keep the hype going.

 Azazelx wrote:
It won't affect me, but it's a typically dumbarse move from Mantic that's only going to hurt them.

This.

I've dumped a lot of feedback and suggestions into the pathfinders group. I hope it all gets taken on board.

privateer4hire wrote:

This won't hurt them in the least. People line up in droves to throw money at Mantic's Kickstarters.
The same folks pissed about this will drop several hundred bucks the next time an early bird shows its tail feathers.

KS backers (and us here) are just small potatoes. The "hurt" will be via a good chunk of the (relatively) huge mass of WHFB players who are dubious about KoW, mighthave been willing to give it a go but will be turned off by the "free" rules and lists they've heard so much about being incomplete - and just stick with 8th/ragequit/rebase for AoS and go back to ignoring Mantic. Talk to some WHFB players and see what their thoughts are about Mantic. Generally they range from indifferent, to "I've heard of them" to knowing their undead models are good, or all of their models are gak and the contempt that comes with that.

Pissing off those of us who evangelise about KoW to our friends (or make us have to write embarrassed emails apologising that oops, sorry the rules aren't complete but I'll get you a copy in a month) doesn't help the grassroots movement, nor create endearing word of mouth, nor get the WHFB players playing KoW right now.

It'd be funny if someone at GW had a sense of humor and made a YouTube video about AoS rules being free AND complete with all army lists covered since Mantic was taking kabs at them.

GW will just continue to behave as though all other companies do not exist. I could see a devoted GW fan doing something like that, though...

The big problem with this is the communication. It isn't such a big deal if you have to buy the main book for the rules, but then we should have all known that was going to be the case in advance (if we were given any information in advance). This has created false expectations and ill feeling, when if they had been upfront and said "We want to sell our rulebook and we want retailers to stock it!" then people would have probably accepted the "taster" lists as a bonus rather than a downgrade.

It's all about communication, and from what I've seen in multiple Mantic threads, communication is still something they suck at.

I'll pay that. The message that was coming through clearly from all sources was for full rules and lists. It would have been simple to "correct" that.

Though that approach would still not be helping them with the WHFB crowd.

I do feel that it was deliberate miscommunication on Mantic's part, but I think it's such a stupid move. It's very disappointing.

Ah well.

Well, I've annoyed GW fans with this, now I guess I can switch to annoying Mantic fans. There are other streamlined, tactical fantasy battle games, ones that give you rules to build your stats and units and armies without 'official' army lists, though sometimes those are available too, for free.