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First edition "get you started" books were quite similar, leaving a bunch of advanced stuff out. And I don't really mind waiting a tad longer to have a hard copy in hand, so this doesn't bother me and I don't feel surprised. I do feel bad for anyone who thought they were getting EVERYTHING free though. But they didn't do that before, not surprised they didn't do it again.

Not a smart move. This lead to a huge amount of frustrated players. Frustrated players won't be customers. Frustrated players will still get the rules, but they won't buy the book.

Extremely poor decision.

/e: Currently working on a work-around. Will be done by tomorrow and open a thread on it.

I think Mantic needs to hire a better PR manager (if they have one) so that they won't lose the goodwill of their customers.

Do you think they'll release the new rulebook with their current army bundles eventually? I'm eye-ing the Lady Ilona bundle and it comes with a rulebook.

 heartserenade wrote:
I think Mantic needs to hire a better PR manager (if they have one) so that they won't lose the goodwill of their customers.

Do you think they'll release the new rulebook with their current army bundles eventually? I'm eye-ing the Lady Ilona bundle and it comes with a rulebook.

It will get there, and the entire set of rules and lists will be free at some point.

Mantic is a business ad giving away for free without promoting that which gives profits is a recipe for disaster, I expect full lists by October, after initial sales of the books.

I don't have a problem with that. I think a lot of people are just upset because they were expecting full rules and army lists on July 10 and they didn't get it. Miscommunication all around and it could've been smoother.

 heartserenade wrote:
I think Mantic needs to hire a better PR manager (if they have one) so that they won't lose the goodwill of their customers.

Do you think they'll release the new rulebook with their current army bundles eventually? I'm eye-ing the Lady Ilona bundle and it comes with a rulebook.

Why waste money on better PR?
After any misunderstanding or disappointment they always come on social media and make apologies for this or that and promise they will get better.
People will continue to support them every so many months when a new KS campaign launches so there's no need to change their processes.
It's making them a small mint, but still a mint, every year. Silly to tamper with that success.

It doesn't make them as much as you think. Mantic are a lot smaller than they would appear to be.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
First edition "get you started" books were quite similar, leaving a bunch of advanced stuff out. And I don't really mind waiting a tad longer to have a hard copy in hand, so this doesn't bother me and I don't feel surprised. I do feel bad for anyone who thought they were getting EVERYTHING free though. But they didn't do that before, not surprised they didn't do it again.

The full lists were available to download on their website. All you missed out on in total were the Magic Items, the Dwarf vs Chaos Dwarf campaign (not sure how much content there was there) and alternate "ZZap!" rules from the Basilean book.

The poll is missing an 'We were given what Mantic said was coming' option.

Seems that even Daedle and Matt disagree with your belief/opinion there.

But keep trying. It's quite humorous.

Sorry will add.
It's not a massive thing. But it did have a large negative impact.

 heartserenade wrote:
I think Mantic needs to hire a better PR manager (if they have one) so that they won't lose the goodwill of their customers.

If they need someone to bop them on the nose with a newspaper and say "No! Bad Mantic!" before they take a stupid decision public, I'd be up for that.

 mattjgilbert wrote:
It doesn't make them as much as you think. Mantic are a lot smaller than they would appear to be.

Smaller means fewer people to spread the money amongst
I know they're a small firm with very few people.

privateer4hire wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
I think Mantic needs to hire a better PR manager (if they have one) so that they won't lose the goodwill of their customers.

Do you think they'll release the new rulebook with their current army bundles eventually? I'm eye-ing the Lady Ilona bundle and it comes with a rulebook.

Why waste money on better PR?
After any misunderstanding or disappointment they always come on social media and make apologies for this or that and promise they will get better.
People will continue to support them every so many months when a new KS campaign launches so there's no need to change their processes.
It's making them a small mint, but still a mint, every year. Silly to tamper with that success.

Better PR would make sure they won't have misunderstandings or disappointments in the first place.

Could Mantic be more clear on the download page that these free rules are not the full rules and that the army lists have more units that will be published in the full version of the rulebook?

Apologies on facebook for having been unclear in communication is all well and good. Not everyone sees those posts however (not everyone has facebook, much less check it regularly or are 'friends' with Mantic there).

There are lots of folks being confused at the moment, thinking units have been removes etc., and it would be very easily avoided of Mantic just updated the text on their homepage to be more clear. They have had two days now since the release of the free rules.

Also, please add some kind of version number on the PDF's for clarity.

I was going to post this in the Mantic forum but I cannot seem to either post a new thread or reply to an existing one. I assume there is some restriction on posting for the first day or so after creating an account.

Could mattjgilbert or someone else who presumably has the ear of Mantic please relay these points (should they be unaware of the issues).

Already relayed mate. I suggest these to them yesterday. They will be discussing them and sorting it out tomorrow when they are all back in work I guess.

Your account needs mod approval so it might be that. If it's already approved, there's an issue at the moment where a lot of posts are going into the moderation queue and need admin approval before they show up. Vbulletin support are trying to figure it out. If you posted something, it'll turn up when an admin logs on and approves the messages in the queue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Update...I just approved your account. You should have a confirmation email.

 mattjgilbert wrote:
Already relayed mate. I suggest these to them yesterday. They will be discussing them and sorting it out tomorrow when they are all back in work I guess.

Your account needs mod approval so it might be that. If it's already approved, there's an issue at the moment where a lot of posts are going into the moderation queue and need admin approval before they show up. Vbulletin support are trying to figure it out. If you posted something, it'll turn up when an admin logs on and approves the messages in the queue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Update...I just approved your account. You should have a confirmation email.

Nice, thank you.

I hope Mantic does clear up any confusion sooner rather than later. I fail to see why a simple update on the text of website couldn't be done over the weekend though. And as long as nothing is done there's just more work for people like you who has to deal with the confusion and annoyance t of potential customers.

I really do appreciate the legwork you and the other pathfinders (and other positions in the Mantic-verse) are putting in.

My problem with the launch is to my mind a concern but that doesn't detract from the fact we had pretty much instantaneous response from mantic alongside some excellent pathfinders.

I think mantic, kings of war and the rules themselves (and the models) are excellent and I want as many people to give them a chance. I was disappointed with what I saw as misleading info and the waste of all the time I spent trying to encourage people to enjoy the great game I play and invest in.

I was disheartened by the people saying 'you expected everything for FREE' and somehow judging me based around the notion I was some mercenary and being dismissive of our concerns in the community. This was emphasised by the quantity of other people, who like me, live, breathe and try to sell mantic because of the great product they produce who shared my frustration, suprise and concern and I won't lie and say it didn't make me worry about the future.

The ceo was excellent and I hope they post 'trial' or something on the rules and we can get back to trying to get as many people to give the game ago and enjoy what we enjoy. Because it deserves success.

I share your displeasure on disclosure, but if full rules and full army lists were posted pre-kickstarter, the forums would be full of angry backers. . A no-win instead of a win-win if communication had been better

Aye, I don't understand why they didn't just explain the situation. People are generally pretty reasonable if they get told the truth.

 Da Boss wrote:
Aye, I don't understand why they didn't just explain the situation. People are generally pretty reasonable if they get told the truth.

Because it's not the Mantic way. That would be - Be vague, over promise & under deliver, change material/contents after Kickstarter closes, make excuses, promise that they'll get it right next time. Wash, rinse, repeat for the next Kickstarter.

 Hyglar's Hellraiser wrote:
Sorry will add.
It's not a massive thing. But it did have a large negative impact.

Thankeekindly. Although I disagree it had a large impact. Some people got their expectations mixed up with reality and got vocal about it. It will be forgotten in a fortnight.

 .Mikes. wrote:

 Hyglar's Hellraiser wrote:
Sorry will add.
It's not a massive thing. But it did have a large negative impact.

Thankeekindly. Although I disagree it had a large impact. Some people got their expectations mixed up with reality and got vocal about it. It will be forgotten in a fortnight.

Exactly. Folks'll be on about the next "oooh, shiny" that Mantic introduces or talking about their latest KS stuff in no time and this'll be long forgotten.

No I disagree. Yesterday had been pushed as a big launch type day by everyone online due to this 'mis-communication' and the timings of the release...what we got was not even hinted at in all the emails, blog and what even the rc expected. I at least thought it would equal V1. Instead we got less than we traditionally did which of course got people skittish! Alongside this saw several fb msg of people doing outreach work on other websites for a certain tabletop wargame that has been recently retired Kurt Russel in solider style.

In a month maybe it won't matter but friday was a disappointment and that will have some negativity especially when combined with the BoW abyssal list- kickstarter controversy. They were promised 'a PDF of the rules.

 Hyglar's Hellraiser wrote:
I at least thought it would equal V1.

Bolded for emphasis. What you described was exactly what happened - some people got themselves worked out over something which was never mentioned. Then, in their disappointing, decided this is Mantic's fault. The bad PR is only in those individual perceptions.

Storm in a tea cup, mountain out of a mole hill, add your favourite idiom here.

Fair enough.
Regardless a fair few people were surprised and disappointed and several outreach operations were blindsided evidenced by the fact the rc and others didn't know what was going on.

Not good. But we will just go into circular arguments

If enough people percieved that the free rules would be complete (even if mantic never explicitly said so) then mantic were at fault for not communicating better. Even Mantics own pahfinders had the wrong impression.

No one (i hope) are saying we are entitled to free complete rules and if it had been clearly communicated that these would be teasers I reckon there would not be much if any negativity. Some people has lost a bit of face hyping this rules release and Mantic could have easily avoided it.

I hope that any negative feelings over this will not seriously damage Mantic in any way since I'm swaying firmly into KoW-fanboi territory, but some damage have been done over this.

At least my personal impression of Mantics professionalism has been somewhat diminished.

It's now been three days since release and still nothing in the Force list PDF's themselves indicate that these are just teaser rules and while the text on the webpage does say the force lists are just extracts it's not that hard for people to miss; thinking that units has been removed.

 .Mikes. wrote:

 Hyglar's Hellraiser wrote:
I at least thought it would equal V1.

Bolded for emphasis. What you described was exactly what happened - some people got themselves worked out over something which was never mentioned. Then, in their disappointing, decided this is Mantic's fault. The bad PR is only in those individual perceptions.

Storm in a tea cup, mountain out of a mole hill, add your favourite idiom here.

You keep saying this and people keep proving you wrong. How many times do people have to link you to the full V1 lists that were available for download, and still are via the magic of Google, before you stop posting this?

Does it make a difference to you that many many people thought the same thing, based around V1 lists and what we were being fed? That we don't expect them as a birthright but that we followed on that A would continue to B without losing things between. I do not consider myself or the others who were confused on friday with any of the labels especially not greed or simplicity. Even pathfinders and some members of the RC were confused.

You can blame the buyers, players and probably the main people who try to get their friends playing and buying. Great idea for the company. Or you can acknowledge that to have so many people saying the same things means that you can't just write them off for not reading the small print or reading too much into mantic's liberal use of the word free and history of COMPLETE free to download V1 and V2 lists.

Regardless you what was presented as a big launch day where what's being launched is less than the free downloads from V1. The storm IMO came from individuals who where kickstarter supporters who felt slighted by the BoW part. I will not speak for them being unfortunately too late for that one but I am backing deadzone: infestation and I would probably feel aggrieved if I had been promised one thing only to see it on another pay to access site regardless of the rationale.

But as already mentioned I still will be buying, playing and selling mantic as much as I can. I think KoW is great and I like the fact ronnie Renton came on fb and talked to people. And I know KoW will be an even greater success. This thread was never meant to be a kneejerk I want to burn ALL my models situation!! Instead it was designed to gauge how players (the people who buy) felt about friday.
However it is disheartening to be dismissed in simple term

It's more basic and fundamental than needing a PR manager from what I've understood. It's simply that different people were responsible for different parts of the process (running the KS, public release etc) and haven't been joined up about who told who what. It's their own internal communication that needs serious work.