'Almost' reactionless EM drive - it works in the lab.

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**Orlanth**

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/134760-the-em-drive-is-here-to-get-us-to-the-moon-in-4-hours-without-fuel

The extremely exciting EM Drive, which could offer high-speed propulsion without fuel, has been confirmed as a working invention.
The drive, which has been compared to Star Trek's impulse drive, was said to be impossible when British inventor Roger Shawyer created it. Nasa reported back in August that it might work and now independent scientific research has confirmed it.
The EM Drive should be able to propel a craft to the Moon in just four hours. And it can do it without fuel. This opens up huge possibilities for interstellar space travel.
Using the drive it could be possible to reach Mars in just 70 days or Pluto, at the end of our solar system, in just 18 months. Alpha Centauri, the closest star system to our sun, would currently take tens of thousands of years to reach but with this drive we could get there in 100 years.
The EM Drive works using solar power to generate multiple microwaves. These move back and forward in an enclosed chamber to produce drive. This should mean there is no need for fuel and very little chance of any wear.
The reason the drive was pooh-poohed as impossible initially is because it defies a fundamental law of physics. The law states that if something is propelled forward something must be pushed in the opposite direction.
Now both Nasa and Professor Martin Tajmar, at Dresden University of Technology, have confirmed that the drive appears to produce the force suggested. The professor says: "we do observe thrust close to the actual predictions after eliminating many possible error sources that should warrant further investigation into the phenomena."
Nasa says a possible explanation could be that the technology manipulates subatomic particles which constantly pop in and out of existence in empty space.
The EM Drive inventor Roger Shawyer says he is just months away from publishing new results, in a peer reviewed journal, confirming that his drive works.

http://www.biztekmojo.com/001007/british-inventor-develops-rocket-engine-which-could-complete-journey-moon-4-hours

British inventor Roger Shawyer has developed a fast electromagnetic (EM) propulsion drive which uses solar power to generate thrust, and is being claimed to be so much powerful, when fully developed, that it would complete the journey to moon in just 4 hours. Shawyer had actually developed the drive about 15 years ago. However, at that time the design was mocked and rejected by most scientists for being scientifically unfeasible. Now, scientists at NASA admit that this drive can actually work. A German scientist has even demonstrated how this drive can produce thrust. The EM drive uses solar energy to generate multiple microwaves which can move back and forth in an enclosed chamber to produce the thrust. Theoretically, this means that until something wears out or fails, the engine could continue working without requiring any rocket fuel. The drive will produce such a great amount of thrust that will reduce travel time to Mars to just 70 days. Getting to Pluto will take just 18 months, and a trip to Alpha Centauri, will take only 100 years. On Monday, NASA also released results of a study which suggested that collaborating with private rocket companies will be beneficial for NASA in terms of saving money on trips to moon and Mars compared to NASA's existing Mars-only plans. The EM drive is now being compared with Star Trek's Impulse Drive, and NASA has confirmed that the drive can work and produce thrust. Martin Tajmar, a professor at Space Systems, Dresden University of Technology in Germany, demonstrated last week how this drive produces the thrust. Prof Tajmar revealed that their team observed "thrust close to the actual predictions" when several potential error sources were eliminated. "Our measurements reveal thrusts as expected from previous claims after carefully studying thermal and electromagnetic interferences." said Professor Tajmar. "If true, this could certainly revolutionize space travel." he added. Prof Tajmar also said that their test campaign is not confirming or refuting the claims of the EM Drive, but the aim is to "independently assess possible side-effects in the measurements methods used so far." Prof Tajmer has presented his findings to the American Institute for Aeronautics and Astronautics' (AIAA) 2015 Propulsion and Energy Forum and Exposition. The inventor of the EM drive Shawyer has said that he is going to publish new results on this drive in a peer reviewed journal in next few months. The EM drive has puzzled researchers as it challenges the law of conservation of momentum. NASA is not sure about the working of the drive but has suggested it could be linked to technology manipulating subatomic particles' popping in and out in empty space.

Exciting news, but damn I hope it isnt premature.

**kronk**

Sounds like heresy!

I don't like it!

Horse and Buggy forever!

**Grey Templar**

I seriously doubt the claim that it can reach 1/25th the speed of light. Other than that, sounds pretty cool.

**Orlanth**

Grey Templar wrote:
I seriously doubt the claim that it can reach 1/25th the speed of light. Other than that, sounds pretty cool.

That claim doesn't appear to be made by anyone other than the press, and just by adding the numbers up from other distances given.

It appears that the drive requires a lot of external power, solar power was mentioned, so even a ride to Pluto may be problematic. It could certainly get there, but it would have to drift like New Horizons after picking up speed while it could get enough light.

This tech seems like it would work best if linked to a fusion reactor, which requires fuel.

**Grey Templar**

Well, if they were just adding up numbers then its still a claim made by the creators.

Anyway, Fusion power needing fuel isn't as big a deal. Its far less bulky than rocket fuel. Heck, if it indeed could reach Alpha Centuri in 100 years they'd only need to refill the reactor a couple times on the way there. Even a fission reactor would be a piece of cake.

**Orlanth**

Grey Templar wrote:
Well, if they were just adding up numbers then its still a claim made by the creators..

Er no. If you add up the time taken to rweach the moon you cant just multiply it up and use that to calculate the time rtaken to reach Alpa Centauri. Not unless you calculated dead speed as constant. The press claims dont do this, they assume continued acceleration.

Grey Templar wrote:

Anyway, Fusion power needing fuel isn't as big a deal. Its far less bulky than rocket fuel. Heck, if it indeed could reach Alpha Centuri in 100 years they'd only need to refill the reactor a couple times on the way there. Even a fission reactor would be a piece of cake.

First we don't have working fusion outside of a weaponised form, second where would you stop to refuel?
Ramjets are also part of a braking system, not a proper refueling system, and the amount of hydrogen gained in deep space is miniscule.
This also requires a hydrogen reactor which is harder to engineer than a heium3-deuterium reactor which offers the best hope for sustainable fusion. However for anything larger than a probe hydrogen fusion is one of the lesser tech hurdles to overcome.

This doesn't make it a non answer, EM drive may be the solution we are looking for to properly escape the cradle, but in practical terms I do not expect thrust useful to launches. As for colony ships, they would need to be vast anyway, so large tanks of fusion engine fuel would be just another component. You want fuel to wrap around the colony anyway, hydrogen is an excellent absorber of radiation.

**Grey Templar**

Obviously you bring extra fuel with you.

How else would a multi-generational ship make the trip?

**Minx**

Grey Templar wrote:
I seriously doubt the claim that it can reach 1/25th the speed of light. Other than that, sounds pretty cool.

Reaching that kind of speed in the near vacuum of space with a limitless power supply is the easy part. Everything else about the "drive" is rather suspect though. It's likely just a measurement error.

**Grey Templar**

I wonder how much time distortion that speed would impart to any travelers?

**Chongara**

This is a big deal not only because a propellant (not fuel!) free drive is really useful, but because we have no idea how the damn thing works. From what I understand while it performs as expected the Creator's explanations for why it works have turned out to be more/less bunk, it just works... for some reason. If this really proves out all the way through it means we might be dealing with something that will give us insight into something radically new.

Grey Templar wrote:
Obviously you bring extra fuel with you.

How else would a multi-generational ship make the trip?

Why would you even want to build a multi-generational ship though. Keeping humans alive is resource intensive, complex and very sensitive to possible complications.

If we want human or earth-based life in generation to leave our solar system, better to just send out automated probes filled with some nanonamchines and genetic data. Have them prep the area then Shake'n'Bake up some earth life on the spot. It's a lighter, lower cost solution that can be done with far greater redundancy and that is far less delicate.

**Grey Templar**

Really? You think a system made to artificially make some Earth organisms is less prone to failure than just keeping people alive for the journey? What about keeping people alive in stasis of some kind?

Such a system would be horribly complex. Far more than a ship with a self-contained biosphere.

**Xenomancers**

Minx wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
I seriously doubt the claim that it can reach 1/25th the speed of light. Other than that, sounds pretty cool.

Reaching that kind of speed in the near vacuum of space with a limitless power supply is the easy part. Everything else about the "drive" is rather suspect though. It's likely just a measurement error.

Agreed - also this experiments took place on earth inside of a massive magnetic field. Would this drive work outside of a magnetic field? Seriously doubt it.

**Chongara**

Grey Templar wrote:
Really? You think a system made to artificially make some Earth organisms is less prone to failure than just keeping people alive for the journey? What about keeping people alive in stasis of some kind?

Such a system would be horribly complex. Far more than a ship with a self-contained biosphere.

It would be, far, far simpler.

First off humans and life in general are big, really big. This means a big ship. This means large amounts a fuel to accelerate them, lots of fuel to decelerate the energy costs are huge and would require complex propulsion systems. Secondly you need to keep temperature levels stable, moisture and atmosphere contained, radiation is problem, as nutrients and recycle. Life is a very complex system and keep it up and running over 100s or 1000s of years in a hostile environment is very complex.

Contrast the nanonmachines.

First off they're light. You only need pack a few million into a football sized-probe, along with a data storage device, a processor and transmitter. If our technology is advanced enough you might be able to decentralize data processing, storage & transmission into the nanonmachine swarm itself.

Once it arrives the self-replicating nano-machines follow some basic instruction sets to harvest resources and basically 3-D Print some shelter and other devices on site. We already have this technology in large-scale devices. Honestly the only piece of the puzzle missing is being able to scale the process down enough. Even if we can't get down to 3-d printing on a cellular level, transporting some gametes is easier than transporting full humans and animals.

There's also the advantage of cost and scale. These probes could be tiny, have very few moving parts and could have much fewer considerations with regards to environment and trip time. For every generational ship we could build, we could build millions if not a billion of these genesis probes. Even even if the a generational ship is 1000s of times more likely to have a positive result than a single probe, the probes are still 1000s more likely to have a positive result overall.

**Grey Templar**

You know, by the time we could make such a device we could probably just instantly travel to the planet in question.

**Chongara**

Grey Templar wrote:
You know, by the time we could make such a device we could probably just instantly travel to the planet in question.

What? A there isn't even any credible basis something like instant travel in the realm of anything but the most hypothetical of physics.

Secondly, we've already got 3-D printing, coordinated machine swarms and many of the building blocks of nanotechnology already in place. We're probably going to see machines that while not quite mall enough, behave quite like what I've describe here within a few decades. At least in a laboratory setting I'd be willing to bet you'll see useful, self-replicating machines before you even retire.

None of what I've described (beyond actually getting the probes to the planet), is insane far-future stuff that needs super technology to be achieved. The only real issue at hand is sufficiently down scaling the technology, and handling the programming.

**Grey Templar**

Chongara wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
You know, by the time we could make such a device we could probably just instantly travel to the planet in question.

What? A there isn't even any credible basis something like instant travel in the realm of anything but the most hypothetical of physics.

Secondly, we've already got 3-D printing, coordinated machine swarms and many of the building blocks of nanotechnology already in place. We're probably going to see machines that if not quite small enough, behave quite like what I've describe here within a few decades. At least in a laboratory setting I'd be willing to bet you'll see useful, self-replicating machines.

None of what I've described (beyond actually getting the probes to the planet), is insane far-future stuff that needs super technology to be achieved. The only real issue at hand is sufficiently down scaling the technology, and handling the programming.

As you said, life is pretty damn complex. Not only do you have to make these machines, but you also have to have 100% total understanding of how the life works before you can tell the machines how to create it from inorganic material.

I think we'll have practical ways of traveling between stars before we start sending out life seeding capsules.

And I was being factious when I said "instantly". I just meant fast enough to where we could just go there without bothering with this silly little life capsule.

**Desubot**

How exciting.

Road trip to mars!

**gorgon**

This sure reminds me of the cold fusion "discovery" in '88 or '89.

**Mr. Burning**

I used to excited by such developments.

Then I look back at rocketry and interstellar travel books, documents and articles from the late 30's onwards and can't help feel twinges of apathy.

The EM drive may lead to practical applications for use in the atmosphere or for probes heading through the solar system.

**Laughing Man**

No.

http://io9.com/no-german-scientists-have-not-confirmed-the-impossibl-1720573809

**Frazzled**

Finally, Mars will pay for what it did to us in the 30s!

**easysauce**

hopefully something comes of this, I seriously doubt it could be a manned flight at this point,

even the predictions only account for the drive itself being propelled that fast, that far, there is no accounting for addition life support, living room, ect ect ect

would have great applications for unmanned crafts if it works in space, definitely worth a try and lots of $ for funding

**generalgrog**

Chongara wrote:

If we want human or earth-based life in generation to leave our solar system, better to just send out automated probes filled with some nanonamchines and genetic data. Have them prep the area then Shake'n'Bake up some earth life on the spot. It's a lighter, lower cost solution that can be done with far greater redundancy and that is far less delicate.

For some reason this sounds like something from a movie or something..something by ridley scott maybe?
GG

**Ouze**

Frazzled wrote:
Finally, Mars will pay for what it did to us in the 30s!

10/30 - Never forget.

**BobtheInquisitor**

I hope the reaction less EM drive will be ready in time for us to launch our nascent supersapient AI into space before it terminates us all.

**BeAfraid**

Turns out these recent tests are still not decisive.

I have friends who work at NASA (both from when my brother worked there as an engineer building the ISS and later from discovering an older friend from the 80s now works in the ISS Space Sciences mission - he is who will be eventually deploying this thing for space-tests).

The results from the recent tests show that there is a delay between the application of power, and the thrust measurement, and that the thrust measurement lingers after the power is cut.

This is indicative of a heat reaction, and not an actual thrust reaction. It is what you would expect to see if the thrust measurements were from heat, and not from the actual generation of thrust.

Also, the instruments used tend to be affected by heat, and the "engine" generates an incredible amount of heat.

We still have nothing "conclusive" and further tests are required.

I last spoke to Paul Abell and Stanley Love a few weeks ago about this specifically when we went out to eat with a friend from Dallas who was in Houston (who also knows Paul).... And they echoed essentially these same points.

Paul even said it may come down to hauling one of the EM drives up into Orbit, and then seeing if it can alter its orbit in a series of maneuvers to test it.

And that they both were perfectly fine with a major portion of physics dying as a result of a successful test. Having this drive would be far more beneficial to the space program than the damage to Physics, which would likely recover quickly with something that allowed us to test new assumptions already existing.

MB

**Ensis Ferrae**

Chongara wrote:

First off humans and life in general are big, really big. This means a big ship. This means large amounts a fuel to accelerate them, lots of fuel to decelerate the energy costs are huge and would require complex propulsion systems. Secondly you need to keep temperature levels stable, moisture and atmosphere contained, radiation is problem, as nutrients and recycle. Life is a very complex system and keep it up and running over 100s or 1000s of years in a hostile environment is very complex.

Humans aren't so big if we use Pym Particles

Anyhow, on a more serious note... I'm no science type, but this does sound kind of cool, if it indeed can be proved to work in all situations (not just a very controlled lab)

**Graphite**

I really like the idea that the only way that we're going to be able to test this damn thing is most likely to haul it into orbit, switch it on and see what happens. Because anything we do on earth will be written off as "measurement errors".

**BeAfraid**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Chongara wrote:

First off humans and life in general are big, really big. This means a big ship. This means large amounts a fuel to accelerate them, lots of fuel to decelerate the energy costs are huge and would require complex propulsion systems. Secondly you need to keep temperature levels stable, moisture and atmosphere contained, radiation is problem, as nutrients and recycle. Life is a very complex system and keep it up and running over 100s or 1000s of years in a hostile environment is very complex.

Humans aren't so big if we use Pym Particles

Anyhow, on a more serious note... I'm no science type, but this does sound kind of cool, if it indeed can be proved to work in all situations (not just a very controlled lab)

Only we don't yet even know if it "works" in a controlled lab.

The issue, though, is that if it actually works..... anywhere (such as in a lab) then it will work in space.

The trick with this thing is that it can be solar powered, for use in the inner solar system, and nuclear powered, for the outer solar system, and capable of generating significant amounts of thrust (relative to what we can now do) IFF it actually works!

Apply more power (electricity to create microwaves) and it generates more thrust (at least, iff it works).

This would allow us to lighten manned exploration craft to other planets, or areas of the solar system by kilotons to megatons (in terms of fuel costs), and it would allow us to add kilotons of equipment to unmanned probes (thus allowing us to do things like Send Spy-Satellite grade cameras to other planets, to get ground-level photographs (or atmospheric photographs hundreds of miles into the atmosphere of gas giants) with mm-scale resolution. Or to send a James Webb sized Telescope out to the heliopause to get images of things in space that are even better than we can get from earth or solar orbit (or, to map the Kuiper Belt objects).

BUT. . .

We have to find out if it actually works or not.

MB

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Graphite wrote:
I really like the idea that the only way that we're going to be able to test this damn thing is most likely to haul it into orbit, switch it on and see what happens. Because anything we do on earth will be written off as "measurement errors".

That was a kind of head-slapper to the guys at NASA too.

But... if it really is something that "breaks physics" (as it would do if it actually works), then that might be the only way we can test it, because all assumptions about what might affect it would then be in doubt.

MB

**KingCracker**

Desubot wrote:
How exciting.

Road trip to mars!

I'd vacation to Mars but if I see some body builder holding a robot head at the gates I'm leaving