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Not everyone hates math if you can't understand it STFU and ignore it, and let the big boys who can actually understand it discuss things.

DakkaDakka Rule Number One is "Be Polite." Please note that continued violation of that rule will result in temporary suspension of your account. Thanks! ~Manchu

gendoikari87 wrote:Not everyone hates math if you can't understand it STFU and ignore it, and let the big boys who can actually understand it discuss things.

I agree with the dude that math does ruin this game a bit. It basically boils down to people taking a codex, mathing it up, then telling the community how to play a game. Sadly its also not the math junkies fault, games workshop has trouble giving use to everything in a codex, and we as a community give into the 'this how you have to play army X by spamming A,B and C units' and if you dont quit playing and dont bother the 'big boys' as you put it.

Do people honestly have fun playing with the same units over and over, with the same lists and painting the same 3 things? I for one hate playing with and against 'spam' armies. its boring and takes away from the game IMO. Probably why I avoid playing people with them and tournaments all together.

PS. I know its a tournament thread, and probably almost everyone who will read this has their spam list, I mean...'competitive list'...but the title drew me to read a few pages of this discussion, and the mean quote poked me to respond lol

Not an acceptable post within the Dakka rules. -Mannahnin

KingmanHighborn wrote: *blahblahblahblah* I'm going to be a giddy kitty *blah*

That one phrase just put a smile on my face. I don't know why, but it did.

KingmanHighborn wrote:
^ THIS IS WHY I HATE IT. You take a freaking game, that involves rolling dice and playing with toy soliders and boil it down to the most hated subject in mankind's history, math. Statistics in particular, but still.

There is no need for a page load of a mathmatical formulas to explain which is better. I don't give a about binomial theorem, I want to pick what I like, build a competive, yet fun list to play, and let the dice gods take it from there. All this mathhammer BS does is suck the fun out of the game, reducing it to numbers instead of player cunning, tactics and chance.

Guess what tells what units are competitive? Guess what tells you which tactics are most effective? Guess what manipulating chance to your advantage is all about?

That's right, math.

Want to know how a Vanquisher will square up against a Hammerhead? Math will give you that answer.

Now me, I'm a History and Politics guy, the best evidence to me is to watch who wins the most, and HOW the games are won.

And if you've ever been through college as a History major there's a reason every good program makes you take both Statistics and some sort of Calculus now, because such analysis will help reveal the causes for events in the past and explain why certain things occurred. Statistics is *HUGE* in history field. Same thing with politics, math tells you a lot about demographics, importance of issues, how effective ad campaigns are, the best avenues of spending to get the best rewards out of a program or lobbying effort, etc.

If GKs win a lot it might not be there are 'completely' overpowered. But if they routinely table other armies regardless of opponent's army composition, for minimal model loss, there is something to the claim.

And guess what gives you the details of how to find that and to what extent that may or may not be true?

Math.

Riker210 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:Not everyone hates math if you can't understand it STFU and ignore it, and let the big boys who can actually understand it discuss things.

I agree with the dude that math does ruin this game a bit. It basically boils down to people taking a codex, mathing it up, then telling the community how to play a game. Sadly its also not the math junkies fault, games workshop has trouble giving use to everything in a codex, and we as a community give into the 'this how you have to play army X by spamming A,B and C units' and if you dont quit playing and dont bother the 'big boys' as you put it.

Do people honestly have fun playing with the same units over and over, with the same lists and painting the same 3 things? I for one hate playing with and against 'spam' armies. its boring and takes away from the game IMO. Probably why I avoid playing people with them and tournaments all together.

PS. I know its a tournament thread, and probably almost everyone who will read this has their spam list, I mean...'competitive list'...but the title drew me to read a few pages of this discussion, and the mean quote poked me to respond lol

I had to exalt this for sheer truth of the statement.

Bleak_Fantasy wrote:

KingmanHighborn wrote:

So basically you are an idiot and hate it when people decide to use to build the most effective army possible.

Or maybe I'm actually very smart, but I want to play a game, have fun/enjoy the hobby, build a beautifuly painted, flavorful army, and I don't want my opponent to think I'm in this just win and beat on the competion, for sh*ts and giggles. Do I want to win? I try, but I'm not going to follow the cheese route. If I had a GK army for example (which I actually did at one time and sold it a long time ago) I wouldn't touch any of the special characters as it goes against my belief on using them. I'd use the units I like, and if I win great, if I lose and it was close I'll still probably have fun.

Mathhammer might make you 'win' more, but it just sucks the fun out of playing. It is supposed to be my hobby not my homework project.

Kepora wrote:

KingmanHighborn wrote: *blahblahblahblah* I'm going to be a giddy kitty *blah*

That one phrase just put a smile on my face. I don't know why, but it did.

I think I know why. I PMed you once but never got a response.

Vaktathi wrote:
Guess what tells what units are competitive? Guess what tells you which tactics are most effective? Guess what manipulating chance to your advantage is all about?

That's right, math.

Want to know how a Vanquisher will square up against a Hammerhead? Math will give you that answer.

And if you've ever been through college as a History major there's a reason every good program makes you take both Statistics and some sort of Calculus now, because such analysis will help reveal the causes for events in the past and explain why certain things occurred. Statistics is *HUGE* in history field. Same thing with politics, math tells you a lot about demographics, importance of issues, how effective ad campaigns are, the best avenues of spending to get the best rewards out of a program or lobbying effort, etc.

And the point is? I didn't say math DIDN'T help, didn't say math wasn't important. I said I hate the people that boil every unit down into a number, and then gloat about it, and force feed it down people's throats. And I've never been a math person, true. It doesn't come easy to me, as easily as writing 50 pages on the Battle of Midway, and examining everything from ship composition, numbers, gun cailbers, tactics, air power, philosophy and dogma, etc. And yes there is math in that too but it's VISIBLE math that had an applied purpose. I don't have to solve the problem, because I already SEE the answers, because they have been meticously recorded and I get to analyze it. That's fun TO ME. As far as politics go, your right math TELLS you, but the real IMPORTANCE is how the data is USED, your already given the answers and it's time to put them into a PRACTICAL use.

You want to know how you SHOULD find out how a Vanquisher squares up against a Hammerhead? It's very easy, pick up your dice and play Warhammer 40K! Oh wow! Shock! Roll the dice with your IG army/or Tau army or at bare minimum watch a game between them and ---->'[b]SEE'<---- IT. Gurantee you'll have more FUN that way then looking at an Excel spreadsheet.

And don't mistake my hate for the overcomplication of a game as an inability to use math. I'll bust my a** in class, and put in the work, doesn't mean I have to enjoy or appreciate it.

And I sure as hell don't need to cluttering up something that should be fun.

gendoikari87 wrote:Not everyone hates math if you can't understand it STFU and ignore it, and let the big boys who can actually understand it discuss things.

There's a discussion here? I only see character attacks and pathetic misdirection. Any half wit can assess the power level of this army, and if you expect serious discussion of this then I'd say you have less than that. (<½)

KingmanHighborn wrote:

^ THIS IS WHY I HATE IT. You take a freaking game, that involves rolling dice and playing with toy soliders and boil it down to the most hated subject in mankind's history, math. Statistics in particular, but still.

Ouch, that's a bad start.

Statistics describes the past.
Probability describes the future, or at least guesses at it.

If you don't like mathhammer...don't use it, but don't dismiss its usefulness in regards to war-gaming.

You guys are misrepresenting his statement. You see...everybody in this hobby has different objectives and goals for the word "fun".

Don't take what you assume to be fun and push it on someone else. His opinion is as valid as anybody else's.

I've discussed this before, but magic the gathering developer's divided players into 3 distinct types.

"Little TImmy" : goal was to cast get biggest creature on the board.

Weird al: goal was to try to win with unique and weird deck

Spike: Waac.

No one person's opinion is wrong. I use math as a tool. But I understand too, that my math ability gives me an advantage. Some people hate math, but it comes naturally to me. THat doesn't mean that I should push math to be a major part of 40k. It should be playable however you want to play.

That means, though, that you should play/hobby with your objective in mind and play/hobby with other like-minded people.

Don't assume, though, that your way is necessarily the ONLY way to have fun or is the right way to play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
[quote=Riker210

Do people honestly have fun playing with the same units over and over, with the same lists and painting the same 3 things?

Juicifer wrote: Any half wit can assess the power level of this army, and if you expect serious discussion of this then I'd say you have less than that. (<½)

Any half-wit could also claim that Codex: Tau Empire is the most broken book ever without backing it up with evidence. If you can't be polite and calm in contact with those who have opinions that differ from your own I suggest not posting at all.

You can't seriously expect people to compete in ANYTHING without trying to break the game down in some way? That's just an excuse to try to wallow in ignorance.

Yes this last page of the thread shows peoples claim to brilliance and shows their short comings for sure. Apparently if you arent a mathhammer fan your ignorant but you might want to double check that. There is many types of intelligences and methods. Everyone claims mathhammer is the way but if you look at what is considered competitive play. Find me a player who has used just math to win. I bet you most the "top" players are smart persons who also use real time exp. Bet they have played many games and used strategy. There is no need for hostility and "I iz so smartz." If you cant discuss why in a productive way your only showing you havent left school yard "tactics." This thread should end soon since there is no more actual productive discussion.

Draigo wrote:Yes this last page of the thread shows peoples claim to brilliance and shows their short comings for sure. Apparently if you arent a mathhammer fan your ignorant but you might want to double check that. There is many types of intelligences and methods. Everyone claims mathhammer is the way but if you look at what is considered competitive play. Find me a player who has used just math to win. I bet you most the "top" players are smart persons who also use real time exp. Bet they have played many games and used strategy. There is no need for hostility and "I iz so smartz." If you cant discuss why in a productive way your only showing you havent left school yard "tactics." This thread should end soon since there is no more actual productive discussion.

You very obviously didn't understand the posts about the importance of mathematics.

Math isn't going to play the game for you, simply sitting there with a calculator isn't going to do anything. Not a single person is saying that simply sitting there doing math will win you a game.

However, the game is all about manipulating the math to give the result most likely to be in your favor. Knowing how the math works and using it to determine the relative differences and effectiveness of units will inform your decisions as to what tactics and strategies to use.

Experience is basically learning how best to manipulate the odds in your favor on a consistent basis. Knowing what weapons and units are effective against which targets at what ranges and to what degree is all determined basically by math, and that will tell you how best to employ them, or how one unit will stack up against another on average.

If faced with a situation where you can either assault an enemy unit or rapid fire it, which do you choose? Likely the one with the greatest chance of destroying the enemy unit while leaving yours intact, and guess how you make that decision? Math. Consciously or unconsciously, math informs your decisions.

And yes, there have been games where I've waited a minute or two while I ran numbers in my head to try and figure out the optimal response to a situation, I'm not the only one either.


This entirely game is based off of probabilities and relative points values supposedly reflecting the value of units at manipulating those probabilities. Understanding that is important.

KingmanHighborn wrote:
And the point is? I didn't say math DIDN'T help, didn't say math wasn't important. I said I hate the people that boil every unit down into a number, and then gloat about it, and force feed it down people's throats.

This entire game is built on on it. Discussion of it in detail is entirely appropriate in such conversations.

And I've never been a math person, true. It doesn't come easy to me, as easily as writing 50 pages on the Battle of Midway, and examining everything from ship composition, numbers, gun cailbers, tactics, air power, philosophy and dogma, etc. And yes there is math in that too but it's VISIBLE math that had an applied purpose.

And somehow running the numbers on a D6 probability based game don't have an applied purpose? As someone with a background in econometrics dealing with exactly the sorts of things you're talking about, running 40k numbers will generally give you a much more concrete estimate than examining all that other stuff because of the relative lack of variables and small number range.

I don't have to solve the problem, because I already SEE the answers because they have been meticously recorded and I get to analyze it. That's fun TO ME. As far as politics go, your right math TELLS you, but the real IMPORTANCE is how the data is USED, your already given the answers and it's time to put them into a PRACTICAL use.

And all this math-hammer goes into that. I don't understand how you're missing how running the math in these situations is also informing your actions on the gaming table.

You want to know how you SHOULD find out how a Vanquisher squares up against a Hammerhead? It's very easy, pick up your dice and play Warhammer 40K!

Oh wow...I'd have to do that hundreds of times to get a reasonable estimation, because, as anyone with any sort of background in statistics can tell you, just looking at a couple of examples isn't going to give you any reliable information.

Or I could just run a quick calculation and get a meaningful average that informs my decision making process on how to approach that situation from the get-go and know that a Hammerhead with disruption pods is about 77% more effective at killing the Vanquisher beyond 12" than the Vanquisher is at killing the Hammerhead, and that at under 12" the Vanquisher is about 12.5% more effective at killing the hammerhead, telling me that I have a slight advantage at very close range and a very crippling disadvantage at long range and I then know that trying to trade shots with a Hammerhead at long ranges is generally a rather poor idea before I suffer for it.

Entire industries and fortunes are based upon this sort of stuff, knowing what to expect *before* you leap headfirst into it and acting intelligently on that information, as opposed to trying to figure it out as it happens in real time.

Oh wow! Shock! Roll the dice with your IG army/or Tau army or at bare minimum watch a game between them and ---->'SEE'<---- IT. Gurantee you'll have more FUN that way then looking at an Excel spreadsheet.

I have fun doing both, the latter excercises my mind just as much and informs my decision-making to a much better degree than just rolling dice a couple times and seeing what plays out once or twice.

lol I do understand the math but just because someone says well you dont get it stfu means you dont want to acknowledge other methods of learning.

Sure, and there are a lot of non-mathematical factors in the game too; movement and maneuvering around terrain are very difficult if not impossible to calculate mathematically, and thus (IMO) tend to get undervalued a bit in online discussions.

That said, given the ease of making basic calculations about likely shooting or assault results, it seems kind of silly to spurn that information when it's available.

Mathhammer is all well and fine for providing a guideline as to what to expect in a given senario, but consider;
a) Only the more competitive players give a damn about the actual math. It's fustrating as hell when you're just wanting to have some fun playing with toy soldiers and you get stuck with a small group of elitiests who boil everything down to the best mathamatical & optimised lists and refuse to budge. So now game nights turn into a torture fest for those who don't want to build full-on 'best optimised' lists because they find them boring/don't want to spend the money/don't want to ruin their theme etc... Or else you get those who join in to try and compete 'with the big boys'. Either way, feelings are hurt, people call eachother names and it just poisons the local communtiy against eachother.

Please, save that stuff for tournies where everyone goes in knowing full well that the gloves are off! Weekly gaming nights should generally be a break from the competitiveness of life in general, not yet another dick measuring contest.
And if that's really your thing and your enjoyment to be hyper competitive all the time, then don't be such a snot about it and give your opponent fair warning about your intentions! Most players I find on open gaming nights aren't looking for tournament style game. Would it honestly kill you that much to tonne it down every now and then?!

b) Do all the math you want! Cursed individuals like me exist and we'll ruin your super math skills without fail by beating the odds and rolling the worst dice you'll ever see! Hell, I got kicked out of probability class because I single-handedly wrecked the entire classes results with my 'epic fail' dice rolling. (out of 12 1D6 rolls I had three 2's and eight 1's!)



Take that mathhammer! Anything you can calculate I'll instantly break

Mathhammer will show you what is better statistically but throwing some less than effective unit at an opponent can be effective because either you use it efficiently or your opponent doesn't realize the actual effect. Also statistics will just show you the average. Have 10 terminators face off against a seer council. The termies should win every time but have the termies get "hot" on rolling 1s and they will lose.

You may get an idea of what will be more effective but your playstyle, your opponent's playstyle and luck of the dice will always make units more or less effective.

Now talking mathhammer. I was just owned by GK with orks -
I totally despise the cleansing flames (anti-hoard) and the pscho grenades (anti-quality) I am starting to think that GW wanted to make an idiot proof codex. Mind you you do pay for them but I am questioning whether they are paying enough. (esp. for the grenades. OMG)

KingmanHighborn wrote:That's fun TO ME.

Did you ever consider in your "I hate people who use math" tirade you start a page back and continued here, that mathhammer may be...fun...to someone else? The game and this forum isn't "satisfy KingmanHighborn". Plenty of people find the discussion of math hammer to be both relevant (in a game involving probabilities and tactical decisions) and enjoyable to discuss.

Try to tone down the hate, what you like plenty of people don't, and vice versa. There's plenty of room for all, and if the mathhammer bugs you, just ignore the post.

While the game isn't pure math, most decisions in life can be made better informed with just a pinch of mental math to run odds or other numbers. Same goes for wargaming, when I am considering which unit to fire at, I run the numbers in my head really fast, if i have a minuscule chance of doing damage, i rethink and pick a new target. While most of these decisions come as second nature due to experience, when you run into a new situation or matchup, it's useful to guide you in making the right choice, the first time.

Steelmage99 wrote:

KingmanHighborn wrote:

^ THIS IS WHY I HATE IT. You take a freaking game, that involves rolling dice and playing with toy soliders and boil it down to the most hated subject in mankind's history, math. Statistics in particular, but still.

Ouch, that's a bad start.

Statistics describes the past.
Probability describes the future, or at least guesses at it.

If you don't like mathhammer...don't use it, but don't dismiss its usefulness in regards to war-gaming.

that, but I would also add if you don't like doing the math, don't cry when you loose alot to people who do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

You want to know how you SHOULD find out how a Vanquisher squares up against a Hammerhead? It's very easy, pick up your dice and play Warhammer 40K! Oh wow! Shock!

Wrong, picking up your dice and playing one game will give you a single data point which may deviate several times from the standard value. Like Fire warriors beating a daemon prince. If you take your approach and you get that result you could infer that fire warriors are awesome CC units, only to be VERY VERY dissapointed when you face off against Imperial guard. the proper method of analyzing a unit is to first do the mathhammer, for basic abilities and then playtest several games for movement/tactics/combo strategies.

Experiment 626 wrote:Mathhammer is all well and fine for providing a guideline as to what to expect in a given senario, but consider;
a) Only the more competitive players give a damn about the actual math. It's fustrating as hell when you're just wanting to have some fun playing with toy soldiers and you get stuck with a small group of elitiests who boil everything down to the best mathamatical & optimised lists and refuse to budge. So now game nights turn into a torture fest for those who don't want to build full-on 'best optimised' lists because they find them boring/don't want to spend the money/don't want to ruin their theme etc... Or else you get those who join in to try and compete 'with the big boys'. Either way, feelings are hurt, people call eachother names and it just poisons the local communtiy against eachother.

Please, save that stuff for tournies where everyone goes in knowing full well that the gloves are off! Weekly gaming nights should generally be a break from the competitiveness of life in general, not yet another dick measuring contest.
And if that's really your thing and your enjoyment to be hyper competitive all the time, then don't be such a snot about it and give your opponent fair warning about your intentions! Most players I find on open gaming nights aren't looking for tournament style game. Would it honestly kill you that much to tonne it down every now and then?!

Your complaint here isn't with people doing math. It's with jerks. Jerks and people with poor social skills exist all over the place, and usually on both sides of any given issue. For every arrogant know it all incessantly nattering on about math and annoying everyone, you've got a know-nothing ignoramus telling everyone that math is meaningless and that the way other people like to play is WrongBadFun.

I don't entirely disagree with your sentiments about keeping it casual on casual game nights, but it sounds more to me like you've had some bad experiences with players in your local area being jerks, and are overgeneralizing your feelings about them, and being a bit short with strangers on the internet who've done you no harm. No offense intended, of course, but that's how it comes across.

Most of the best players I know are a) really experienced, b) capable of using math when appropriate, and c) very friendly and fun to play with, even when they're trying to smash your army to bits. It isn't a dichotomy with just overcompetive mathhammering jerks on one side and friendly pint-buying background-lovers on the other.

Mannahnin wrote:Sure, and there are a lot of non-mathematical factors in the game too; movement and maneuvering around terrain are very difficult if not impossible to calculate mathematically, and thus (IMO) tend to get undervalued a bit in online discussions.

That said, given the ease of making basic calculations about likely shooting or assault results, it seems kind of silly to spurn that information when it's available.

Mathammer boils down to assuming you're playing on a bare table, which is why I hate it. Clever use of terrain and movement can mask a fragile units (like, say, Genestealers) movement enough for them to get a charge without being shot by, say a Devastator squad with 4 Heavy Bolters that should, statistically, obliterate them as soon as they're in range.

Mathhammering things is a starting point, it's not the final result.

Math doesn't assume you're playing on a bare table. Bad players misusing math do.

Now that we've concluded that math is not the end-all-be-all of everything, can we agree that the psycannon's 24" range is what puts it over the edge versus the melta?

I only say this because I've seen people say that GK have a problem with AV14 and it's their crippling weakness, and then I watched a GK player remove three landraiders from a table in two shooting phases.

Most meltas are cheaper so not really. lol gh get 2 meltas for less then 1 psycanon. I will concede that gk are a strong army though as long as eldrad isnt around. lol they lose quite a bit espeacially non termies/pally lists. Not sayin non contending but a purifier without cf is just a a strike member.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Now that we've concluded that math is not the end-all-be-all of everything, can we agree that the psycannon's 24" range is what puts it over the edge versus the melta?

I only say this because I've seen people say that GK have a problem with AV14 and it's their crippling weakness, and then I watched a GK player remove three landraiders from a table in two shooting phases.

No?

Math isn't the end all be all, but it doesn't change that the melta is a better anti-tank gun. Observing one game and see psycannons remove raiders doesn't tell you anything about how likely that is to actually happen. Heck, I've killed a bloodthirster with a guardsman in combat, but it isn't a likely outcome.

A psycannon moving (which it probably is other than terminators) is:

2 shots = 1.334 hits = .222 rends = .148 pens = .049 destroyed results. This is if the land raiders don't have any cover, or smoke on. 4.9% to kill it.

Meaning on average, to remove one raider, you need ~40 psycannon shots

Not many GK armies put out that much firepower, let alone 2-3 times that to take out 3 raiders in 2 turns.

To compare, my 1750/1850 GK army put out a whopping 8 psycannon shots at most per turn, i have 2 on my purifiers, that's it.

You can set up Psycannons to fire to full effect, though. Through some stationary units and via having them on Relentless models. A psycannon is infinitely more likely to pop a LR from outside 12" than a meltagun is. They're certainly not as good as meltas are once you get a melta into short range, but they are quite good, and tend to get in multiple turns of firing without being immediately assaulted and killed.

GK are the most over powered book so far.

Just because we can make a list out of the weakest unit doesnt mean anything.

What makes something OP is what OP stuff can be spammed.

AND GK CAN SPAM OP STUFF

Not to mention that Psycannons are better against some units that the metlagun is rubish (like any kind of infantry)

EDIT: No specific points costs allowed, almost forgot.

Aren't psycannons the same price as meltaguns on some units? And those are the units you would spam them on? The game I saw had like four GKSS with max psycannons and paladins w/ GM with max psycannons, among other things.

It was certainly close to 40 psycannon shots, lol. That's only 10 of them and when it's your only real special AND only real heavy weapon...

Also, there is nothing wrong with math in warhammer. It exists whether you turn your head away from it or not.
Because everything is measured with stats, and determined with dice, the fact that dice is related to probabilities is tied with math.

For example, if we play russian roulette, er if you put 1 bullet, you have 1 in 6 chances of getting shot.
If you put 2, the chance of you getting shot just doubled.

I dont have to be a math nerd to point that out.