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Unit1126PLL wrote:EDIT: No specific points costs allowed, almost forgot.

Aren't psycannons the same price as meltaguns on some units? And those are the units you would spam them on? The game I saw had like four GKSS with max psycannons and paladins w/ GM with max psycannons, among other things.

It was certainly close to 40 psycannon shots, lol. That's only 10 of them and when it's your only real special AND only real heavy weapon...

No theyre not. On a paladin theyre 25 pts. Cheapest they get is 10 and thats on stuff like strike squads.

LunaHound wrote:Also, there is nothing wrong with math in warhammer. It exists whether you turn your head away from it or not.
Because everything is measured with stats, and determined with dice, the fact that dice is related to probabilities is tied with math.

For example, if we play russian roulette, er if you put 1 bullet, you have 1 in 6 chances of getting shot.
If you put 2, the chance of you getting shot just doubled.

I dont have to be a math nerd to point that out.

Of course the real question is "why am I playing russian roulette?"
Can we at least agree that, while Math is a very important tool in this game, it's not a replacement for experence?

Luke_Prowler wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Also, there is nothing wrong with math in warhammer. It exists whether you turn your head away from it or not.
Because everything is measured with stats, and determined with dice, the fact that dice is related to probabilities is tied with math.

For example, if we play russian roulette, er if you put 1 bullet, you have 1 in 6 chances of getting shot.
If you put 2, the chance of you getting shot just doubled.

I dont have to be a math nerd to point that out.

Of course the real question is "why am I playing russian roulette?"
Can we at least agree that, while Math is a very important tool in this game, it's not a replacement for experence?

There is nothing to replace, it just exists like gravity whether you realize it or not.

LunaHound wrote:There is nothing to replace, it just exists like gravity whether you realize it or not.

Agreed 100% on this. Too many players choose to ignore math when they argue the usefulness of various units. Sure, your Leman Russ Punisher once killed an entire tactical squad in one turn.... but math still says it sucks.

Maybe "experence" isn't the right word.

Personally, my beef is more with "theoryhammer", where someone take two units, put them in a bubble and have them fight with unrealistic variables.

ph34r wrote:

LunaHound wrote:There is nothing to replace, it just exists like gravity whether you realize it or not.

Agreed 100% on this. Too many players choose to ignore math when they argue the usefulness of various units. Sure, your Leman Russ Punisher once killed an entire tactical squad in one turn.... but math still says it sucks.

Or they never looked at a calculator in their life and said hey after these 20 games these guys worked well and those didnt since im playin against this certain meta.

In theory a space marine should be able to kill a Grot.
But its possible to fail that 20 games.

But as they are priced accordingly to the theory, its reinforced because of laws of probability / math

LunaHound wrote:In theory a space marine should be able to kill a Grot.
But its possible to fail that 20 games.

But as they are priced accordingly to the theory, its reinforced because of laws of probability / math

So why play the game if your math is so absolute? Does it account for uneven terrain, dice bumping into things? Cocked die that need to be rerolled? The temperature in the air? The method in which the dice are dropped or tossed into a container? NO that is why math also uses variables and unknown values in algebra because it cannot predict every outcome. Even scientists who discovered the distance between planets realize they arent 100 percent accurate because they cannot account for everything. Yes it is an indicator but not absolute. Yes You can see how a weapon would affect AV 14 if it hits and you can get a general idea of how many times it could hit but not how many times it actually will till you can control reality.

What i said is absolute? I hardly call a grot beating space marine 20 times to be absolute ^-^

LunaHound wrote:In theory a space marine should be able to kill a Grot.
But its possible to fail that 20 games.

But as they are priced accordingly to the theory, its reinforced because of laws of probability / math

In theory, a unit of Blood Claw would kill a unit of Stormboyz. What do you think is more likely to happen?

Luke_Prowler wrote:

LunaHound wrote:In theory a space marine should be able to kill a Grot.
But its possible to fail that 20 games.

But as they are priced accordingly to the theory, its reinforced because of laws of probability / math

In theory, a unit of Blood Claw would kill a unit of Stormboyz. What do you think is more likely to happen?

In theory a unit of Stormboyz due to jump packs would be able to get the charge
however, due to the fact that bloodclaw have grenades would negate that.

Bloodclaw in theory would win, but like the Grot vs Marine i mentioned earlier, nothing is absolute like you think i claimed.

The probability is still there.

Draigo wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:EDIT: No specific points costs allowed, almost forgot.

Aren't psycannons the same price as meltaguns on some units? And those are the units you would spam them on? The game I saw had like four GKSS with max psycannons and paladins w/ GM with max psycannons, among other things.

It was certainly close to 40 psycannon shots, lol. That's only 10 of them and when it's your only real special AND only real heavy weapon...

No theyre not. On a paladin theyre 25 pts. Cheapest they get is 10 and thats on stuff like strike squads.

The underlined part is directly contradicting your initial assertion of "no theyre not the same price as meltaguns on some units." Just sayin'.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:EDIT: No specific points costs allowed, almost forgot.

Aren't psycannons the same price as meltaguns on some units? And those are the units you would spam them on? The game I saw had like four GKSS with max psycannons and paladins w/ GM with max psycannons, among other things.

It was certainly close to 40 psycannon shots, lol. That's only 10 of them and when it's your only real special AND only real heavy weapon...

No theyre not. On a paladin theyre 25 pts. Cheapest they get is 10 and thats on stuff like strike squads.

The underlined part is directly contradicting your initial assertion of "no theyre not." Just sayin'.

Not when I compared them to armies who get em cheaper or free.

Draigo wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:EDIT: No specific points costs allowed, almost forgot.

Aren't psycannons the same price as meltaguns on some units? And those are the units you would spam them on? The game I saw had like four GKSS with max psycannons and paladins w/ GM with max psycannons, among other things.

It was certainly close to 40 psycannon shots, lol. That's only 10 of them and when it's your only real special AND only real heavy weapon...

No theyre not. On a paladin theyre 25 pts. Cheapest they get is 10 and thats on stuff like strike squads.

The underlined part is directly contradicting your initial assertion of "no theyre not." Just sayin'.

Not when I compared them to armies who get em cheaper or free.

Such as ... ? (I know Marines get MM for free, but I am comparing to regular Meltaguns because MM can't move and shoot like psycannons - whole nother worm box.)

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:EDIT: No specific points costs allowed, almost forgot.

Aren't psycannons the same price as meltaguns on some units? And those are the units you would spam them on? The game I saw had like four GKSS with max psycannons and paladins w/ GM with max psycannons, among other things.

It was certainly close to 40 psycannon shots, lol. That's only 10 of them and when it's your only real special AND only real heavy weapon...

No theyre not. On a paladin theyre 25 pts. Cheapest they get is 10 and thats on stuff like strike squads.

The underlined part is directly contradicting your initial assertion of "no theyre not." Just sayin'.

Not when I compared them to armies who get em cheaper or free.

Such as ... ? (I know Marines get MM for free, but I am comparing to regular Meltaguns because MM can't move and shoot like psycannons - whole nother worm box.)

Grey Hunters have 2 regular for 1 psycanon. Blood angels can get 1 reg and one mm for 5. Theres 2 quick examples without even lookin through my books.

Yet purifers can get 4 for 1 squad. And purifiers can be made as Troops

Draigo wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:EDIT: No specific points costs allowed, almost forgot.

Aren't psycannons the same price as meltaguns on some units? And those are the units you would spam them on? The game I saw had like four GKSS with max psycannons and paladins w/ GM with max psycannons, among other things.

It was certainly close to 40 psycannon shots, lol. That's only 10 of them and when it's your only real special AND only real heavy weapon...

No theyre not. On a paladin theyre 25 pts. Cheapest they get is 10 and thats on stuff like strike squads.

The underlined part is directly contradicting your initial assertion of "no theyre not." Just sayin'.

Not when I compared them to armies who get em cheaper or free.

Such as ... ? (I know Marines get MM for free, but I am comparing to regular Meltaguns because MM can't move and shoot like psycannons - whole nother worm box.)

Grey Hunters have 2 regular for 1 psycanon. Blood angels can get 1 reg and one mm for 5. Theres 2 quick examples without even lookin through my books.

Thanks! That has helped. So Grey Hunters, one of the other "spammable, possibly-overpowered, certainly overused" units gets a 2-fer-1, and Blood Angels get 1. Again, MMs really don't matter because they're totally worthless compared to psycannons.

But you're right. Psycannons are totally weak and useless and everyone should play the 2-fer-1 space wolves instead.

Never said they were weak and now it just sounds like you all just want to bitch and whine so carry on.

Draigo wrote:Never said they were weak and now it just sounds like you all just want to bitch and whine so carry on.

What on earth, that is just rude especially when you are doing the samething.

Reported

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:Never said they were weak and now it just sounds like you all just want to bitch and whine so carry on.

What on earth, that is just rude especially when you are doing the samething.

Reported

No I am saying many armies have strong stuff and all I hear back is well theyre OP too wah wah wah.. Good lord people on this site sometimes arent happy unless they have somethin to hate. Every army has stupid stuff spammed get over it. It isnt changing. This is why as a whole you get ignored. Nothing but complaining. Go make your own game where every is fair I mean in your favor.

LunaHound wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:

LunaHound wrote:In theory a space marine should be able to kill a Grot.
But its possible to fail that 20 games.

But as they are priced accordingly to the theory, its reinforced because of laws of probability / math

In theory, a unit of Blood Claw would kill a unit of Stormboyz. What do you think is more likely to happen?

In theory a unit of Stormboyz due to jump packs would be able to get the charge
however, due to the fact that bloodclaw have grenades would negate that.

Bloodclaw in theory would win, but like the Grot vs Marine i mentioned earlier, nothing is absolute like you think i claimed.

The probability is still there.

I never claimed that, my point was that people would use those probability without context

Luke_Prowler wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:

LunaHound wrote:In theory a space marine should be able to kill a Grot.
But its possible to fail that 20 games.

But as they are priced accordingly to the theory, its reinforced because of laws of probability / math

In theory, a unit of Blood Claw would kill a unit of Stormboyz. What do you think is more likely to happen?

In theory a unit of Stormboyz due to jump packs would be able to get the charge
however, due to the fact that bloodclaw have grenades would negate that.

Bloodclaw in theory would win, but like the Grot vs Marine i mentioned earlier, nothing is absolute like you think i claimed.

The probability is still there.

I never claimed that, my point was that people would use those probability without context

Im sorry, it was Draigo not you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:Never said they were weak and now it just sounds like you all just want to bitch and whine so carry on.

What on earth, that is just rude especially when you are doing the samething.

Reported

No I am saying many armies have strong stuff and all I hear back is well theyre OP too wah wah wah.. Good lord people on this site sometimes arent happy unless they have somethin to hate. Every army has stupid stuff spammed get over it. It isnt changing. This is why as a whole you get ignored. Nothing but complaining. Go make your own game where every is fair I mean in your favor.

Arent you also wah wah wahing about the wah wah wahers?

And Im pointing out and wah wah wahing about you wah wah wahing about wah wah wahers.

Well atleast im polite about it.

I find in most cases Luna you take things and make long debates out of them. I was planning to just leave this thread because I think it has become ridiculous and nothing good comes out of me continuing but You keep rehashing and threatening with reports. Grow up

Draigo wrote:I find in most cases Luna you take things and make long debates out of them. I was planning to just leave this thread because I think it has become ridiculous and nothing good comes out of me continuing but You keep rehashing and threatening with reports. Grow up

First off , the main debate is how OP GKs are. I have made solid points on GK being able to spam incredibly effective units that majority of other armies cannot match.
Then, we got into debate of how math and math hammer effects our games.

I was very much 100% on topic, 100% polite, and 100% contributing in every word i posted.


On the other hand, it sounds like you dont like to be proven wrong and dont like to be called out while being rude huh.

Dont be rude, and well get along fine. Its the #1 rule anyways?

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:I find in most cases Luna you take things and make long debates out of them. I was planning to just leave this thread because I think it has become ridiculous and nothing good comes out of me continuing but You keep rehashing and threatening with reports. Grow up

First off , the main debate is how OP GKs are. I have made solid points on GK being able to spam incredibly effective units that majority of other armies cannot match.
Then, we got into debate of how math and math hammer effects our games.

I was very much 100% on topic, 100% polite, and 100% contributing in every word i posted.


On the other hand, it sounds like you dont like to be proven wrong and dont like to be called out while being rude huh.

Dont be rude, and well get along fine. Its the #1 rule anyways?

You never proved me wrong luna you said gh were op. lol I never disputed psycanons being good I just said everyone does it so its not op. So get over yourself.

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:I find in most cases Luna you take things and make long debates out of them. I was planning to just leave this thread because I think it has become ridiculous and nothing good comes out of me continuing but You keep rehashing and threatening with reports. Grow up

First off , the main debate is how OP GKs are. I have made solid points on GK being able to spam incredibly effective units that majority of other armies cannot match.
Then, we got into debate of how math and math hammer effects our games.

I was very much 100% on topic, 100% polite, and 100% contributing in every word i posted.


On the other hand, it sounds like you dont like to be proven wrong and dont like to be called out while being rude huh.

Dont be rude, and well get along fine. Its the #1 rule anyways?

You never proved me wrong luna you said gh were op. lol I never disputed psycanons being good I just said everyone does it so its not op. So get over yourself.

Your sentence contradict yourself.

a) GK is the only army that can spam psycannons.

b) If everyone does it, it will have to imply the everyone you mentioned are all indeed GKs.

c) Then you said because all GKs are all spamming OP stuff, it wouldnt be considered OP...

Then it would mean.... your statement can only be correct, if GK are the only existing army. Too bad there are 13 other armies.

And telling people to get over themselves is also rude.

If im out of line why was your report ignored? Also if every army is op then no one is.

Draigo wrote:If im out of line why was your report ignored? Also if every army is op then no one is.

Every army have their distinct strength. GK have all the strength, which is why its OP.

And seeing your GK list, no wonder you don't think GK is OPd. You didn't even give the paladins FNP

Not in every list so its not. At 2k pts I cant have everything so I choose purifiers or pallys. Thats not good at everything but darn tough within 24 and add some decent shoting with the dreads. One bad round with purifiers for instance to an IG gunline or DE venom spam Im gone.

So then does that make the de or ig op? NO it means that it was a good matchup for that army type. There is no OP just bad matchups and outside of daemons vs GK there is not a dinstict advantage vs anyone else.

People always wanna say oh gk hurt nids.. well so did every other 5h codex. Vulkan rerolls melta, sw have tons of rules vs mc, de shoot them to death.. just an ugly affair.

Thats not op thats match up problems and a sub par nid codex. Orkz are technically a 4th edition codex and still are in almost every top 3 of every tournament since they arrived. Just cause they arent new and shiny people say oh well now theyve suddenly balanced out lol..

SW BA IG etc were all OMG they broke the game and now eh gk iz soooo busted. Same song and dance with no substance. EVERY army has outrageous stuff and it will always be so. These threads dont mean a thing to anyone and will not suddenly change the gaing world.

I am done wasting my time responding to you luna. If you feel you could do better then GW go apply!

how old are you?